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Now that the new Space Marine codex is out and in people's hands, we're able to see for certain how a White Scars army may work. Most of the details match up to the rumours, but there are still a few differences or things that were missed.

The key points for me are:

- Everything got cheaper except attack bikes (+5 pointS) and very basic landspeeders
- No no need to pay for vet Sergeants, but you do get lower leadership
- The Chapter tactics are as rumoured (no need to worry about difficult terrain now, better jink, better in close combat)
- Captains still make 5+ strong bike squads troops, however Chaptermasters now do the same (and can move and shoot with their bombardment)
- Kor'sarro Khan is pretty poor in combat compared to some stock options, but gives all bikes and transports scout

So how are White Scars armies going to change?
What sort of list are you going to be building?
What weaknesses need to be addressed?
Is Kor'sarro Khan a must-have, and option, or a waste of points?
Is the Chaptermaster the new captain?
Are you tempted by a LSS?
How will you handle AA?

Looking forward to seeing people's thoughts...

Is Kor'sarro Khan a must-have, and option, or a waste of points?

I would say this comes down to how you build the rest of your list. DA ravenwing lists use scout to gain a large alpha strike capability along with the dakka banner. If you build your list similarly as an alpha strike machine then khan is of course a necessity, if you plan on making a more all round list then most likely not, because as you said there are better choices. Personally I like the ability to make my own captain/ master.

Are you tempted by a LSS?

As part of my main detachment: only if my meta kept putting objectives on the 2nd floor.
My disappointment with the Storm is not from C:SM, but actually because codex DA can't take it. I would love it if I could take DA allies for their Black knights, prescience librarians and power field generator to help counter those heldrakes, but cover the compulsory troop choice with an option that better fits a bike theme army. If this was the case then I'd certainly take it for fluff reasons.

How will you handle AA?

If it's not heldrakes, then no problem, you have hit and run, 12 move speed and a 12 turbo boost to keep most your units out the way. If it is then possibly storm talons or stalkers.

Immediate thoughts...

- as an advantage above the ravening alpha strike tactic, we can ignore terrain and gain a bonus to jink, giving a potential alpha strike from cover with a 2+ cover save next turn

- is a white scar command squad a suitable close combat Death Star? Regular bike squads are still a bit gak in close combat

- monstrous creatures - there are loads of them, how do we deal with them??

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Immediate thoughts...

- as an advantage above the ravening alpha strike tactic, we can ignore terrain and gain a bonus to jink, giving a potential alpha strike from cover with a 2+ cover save next turn

- is a white scar command squad a suitable close combat Death Star? Regular bike squads are still a bit gak in close combat

- monstrous creatures - there are loads of them, how do we deal with them??

You can take 3 bikers with 2 grav guns, and a combi grav for just over 100 points. How are there any problems with MC's anymore?

 ArbitorIan wrote:
- is a white scar command squad a suitable close combat Death Star? Regular bike squads are still a bit gak in close combat

I like them.
You can take 5 bikers, turn one into a Apothecary.
Maybe take a banner (the relic one), some power weapons/fists.
Quite durable and hard hitting with 4 attacks on the charge.

- monstrous creatures - there are loads of them, how do we deal with them??

With grav-guns that don't suffer from moving.
At GW they were thinking something like: "How do we make Grav good, but not OP compared to Plasma? Let's make them Salvo-weapons!"
Probably completely forgetting what this would mean for Bikers.

White scars look like they can be a very strong build in the new codex. Its still to early to tell.

 labmouse42 wrote:
White scars look like they can be a very strong build in the new codex. Its still to early to tell.

Agreed, this is my thought as well. Of course, Ultramarines and Imperial Fists both look viable as well, but White Scars occur to me as the best build I've seen at first glance.

Also note the apothecary is now a character, giving him some resilience against being sniped out of the squad.

For anti-MC duties I'm also wondering about a biker librarian with a force axe and the Armour Indominitus. OK, the armour doubles his basic cost, but it protects him form normal fire pretty well, and it also lets him survive the MC's smash attacks to hit back with his force weapon. He'll even take a Black Mace DP with that combo... Overpriced stupidity, or death to MCs?

Well, MCs are not going to be the bane of an army that can take grav weapons.

When your able to throw out 75+ Grav gun shots per turn, anything with a 3+ save is just not that scary.

As I said, its going to take some play testing. What looks awesome on paper can be garbage on actual play.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Well, MCs are not going to be the bane of an army that can take grav weapons.

When your able to throw out 75+ Grav gun shots per turn, anything with a 3+ save is just not that scary.

As I said, its going to take some play testing. What looks awesome on paper can be garbage on actual play.

Psh, Fateweaver cares not for your grav weapons. Armor is for sissies

Grav weapons look very tasty on bikes, but I'm wondering where I can get that many...

White Scars are an interesting option. The problem I see though is that it's really hard to compete with the sheer firepower thrown out by a Ravenwing army with the Banner of Devastation. For this reason I think pure bike armies will be better served by Codex: Dark Angels. However, Space Marine bikes are certainly a viable option-- I just think pure biker builds will do worse than hybrid builds with both bikes and appropriate support elements.

I played White Scars for the entirely of 4th edition. I skipped most of 5th, but I'm sure my experience still holds: using nothing but bikes is crazy talk.

White Scars players should treat bikes as a replacement for Tactical Marines. Just like you don't field entire armies of Tacticals, you don't field entire armies of bikes. 2-3 squadrons is plenty if you have proper support - Land Speeders, Predators, Whirlwinds, flyers, etc.

 Kingsley wrote:
White Scars are an interesting option. The problem I see though is that it's really hard to compete with the sheer firepower thrown out by a Ravenwing army with the Banner of Devastation. For this reason I think pure bike armies will be better served by Codex: Dark Angels. However, Space Marine bikes are certainly a viable option-- I just think pure biker builds will do worse than hybrid builds with both bikes and appropriate support elements.

Agreed. For an SM biker army scouts seems like a good choice. They are cheap scoring units with good flexibility and can now take the land speeder storm as dedicated transport, Yum.

From what I've seen Ravening and White Scars still seem to have different playstyles. The White Scars definitely have the better troops, given what the bikes can do (especially if you take Khan), but I think the support elements for RW are better force multipliers - the darkshroud, grenades, and banner spring to mind.

For myself bikes are definitely the core of my army, but I'm also including other elements that fit with the feel of the army, including sniper scouts, CC scouts in a LSS, land speeders and a Whirlwind.

White Scars and Bike Armies in general are going to be very powerful.

4 Bikes, 2 with Grav Weapons and an AB with Heavy Bolter are really versatile in that you get a fair amount of shots with Grav against MEQ, TEQ and MC and you have TL Bolters and a HB for any other infantry.

It's a cheap squad too.

I don't see those armies being better than Ravenwing with the Standard of Devastation. Realistically I think you want 2-4 Bike squads in Codex: Space Marines, then other elements to provide the staying power and ranged support that Bikes lack.

The problem is the banner of devestation can be focused down, sniped, or barraged out. White scars get a lot of their potency from chapter tactics which you cannot remove.

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't see those armies being better than Ravenwing with the Standard of Devastation. Realistically I think you want 2-4 Bike squads in Codex: Space Marines, then other elements to provide the staying power and ranged support that Bikes lack.

I don't think it's just the bike squads, it's everything else that the new book has to offer for support that the DA do not have.

Stormtalon and Stormraven for one. Chapter Tactics are a big reason too.

One of my close gaming buddies runs RW and he says that they got shafted by the new Vanilla Dex.

 Kingsley wrote:
White Scars are an interesting option. The problem I see though is that it's really hard to compete with the sheer firepower thrown out by a Ravenwing army with the Banner of Devastation. For this reason I think pure bike armies will be better served by Codex: Dark Angels. However, Space Marine bikes are certainly a viable option-- I just think pure biker builds will do worse than hybrid builds with both bikes and appropriate support elements.

There are a few problems with the Ravenwing army.
* First, they are 27 points a pop instead of 21 points a pop. That means they are 77.7% the cost, meaning you get a lot more C:SM bikes on the table.
* Your not paying the tax for the banner + LRC. Your shaving ~400 points of the top that way.
* Your not paying the sammael/azrael tax. Sure they don't suck as ICs, but they are more expensive than a biker captain/khan.

So does Ravenwing have better damage per point ratios? At this point I'm not sure. I've got to plug the numbers into my excel sheet to find out. My gut feeling is that they will be better, but will come with a high entry fee.

Here is the thing that I like about the White Scars bike army. I can buy 36 bikes w/12 grav guns for under 1000 points. That means I still have a lot I can add to the army in the form of terminators/centurians/whirlwinds/etc... A ravening biker army just can't bring as much to the table.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I played White Scars for the entirely of 4th edition. I skipped most of 5th, but I'm sure my experience still holds: using nothing but bikes is crazy talk.

White Scars players should treat bikes as a replacement for Tactical Marines. Just like you don't field entire armies of Tacticals, you don't field entire armies of bikes. 2-3 squadrons is plenty if you have proper support - Land Speeders, Predators, Whirlwinds, flyers, etc.

Well, things are different in this codex. They are cheap. You can field 30-36 of them and not break your point budget. You can still get tons of toys!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I played White Scars for the entirely of 4th edition. I skipped most of 5th, but I'm sure my experience still holds: using nothing but bikes is crazy talk.

White Scars players should treat bikes as a replacement for Tactical Marines. Just like you don't field entire armies of Tacticals, you don't field entire armies of bikes. 2-3 squadrons is plenty if you have proper support - Land Speeders, Predators, Whirlwinds, flyers, etc.

I agree with you here, but I would still take at least two Tactical squads to hold objectives, while the bikes go off and bully enemy units 2vs1 with supporting elements helping where needed.

I did the math, and this is how Ravenwing vs. White Scars line up.

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

Resiliance Per Point
Ravenwing
Lasguns: 133.33
Bolters : 49.99
Autocannons : 19.98
LasCannons : 9.99

White Scars
Lasguns: 171.42
Bolters : 64.28
Autocannons : 25.71
LasCannons : 17.14

The White Scars are much better on a Resiliance Per Point basis. Getting that extra Jink plus being only 77.7% of the cost really makes them a much better buy when it comes to withstanding enemy fire.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I did the math, and this is how Ravenwing vs. White Scars line up.

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

Resiliance Per Point
Ravenwing
Lasguns: 133.33
Bolters : 49.99
Autocannons : 19.98
LasCannons : 9.99

White Scars
Lasguns: 171.42
Bolters : 64.28
Autocannons : 25.71
LasCannons : 17.14

The White Scars are much better on a Resiliance Per Point basis. Getting that extra Jink plus being only 77.7% of the cost really makes them a much better buy when it comes to withstanding enemy fire.

I'd say that the White Scars edge it with that info and the better support options they have.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I did the math, and this is how Ravenwing vs. White Scars line up.

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

The thing you miss here is that grav weapons are highly affected by cover, whereas Standard of Devastation bolters aren't. A grav gun that fires at Marines in 4+ cover will on average kill two-thirds of a Marine (2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 2/3 failed cover saves) whereas a Standard of Devastation bolter firing at a Marine in 4+ cover will kill 16/27 of a Marine (32/9 hits, 32/18 wounds, 32/54 failed armor saves)-- almost the same thing!

In other words, once you factor cover and invulnerable saves into play, the special weapons used by White Scars often end up being equal to the normal weapons used by Ravenwing. This is especially important when dealing with monstrous creatures, which nearly always have either cover or an invulnerable save of some kind.

I would take them over RW for hit and run alone. That ability is one of the most underrated and tactically beneficial in the game. Especially on units that won't get swept. You can literally assault a low damage unit to slingshot yourself for next turn assaults on real targets or read shots on vehicles.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I would take them over RW for hit and run alone. That ability is one of the most underrated and tactically beneficial in the game. Especially on units that won't get swept. You can literally assault a low damage unit to slingshot yourself for next turn assaults on real targets or read shots on vehicles.

Ravenwing all have Hit and Run as well.

Seeing as how it has been shown that you don't need Khan to make all Bikes of 5+ Troops, I'm wondering if taking him is worth it just for FC for one unit and Scout for Bikes,or to splash out a bit more for the nigh unkillable Chapter Master.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just a note on the question of whether or not Khan is necessary; do remember that without him, you are only getting one scoring Bike squad per Captain or Chapter Master, so it limits your build a lot more by making you spend a lot more points.

Nope... You actually can take squads of five bikes, six times as troops with either a CM or Captain on a bike. Says so in the Dex, the rumours were wrong.

Pg 163 under the CM entry and 164 under the Captain: Mounted Assault.

I'd say Kahn is worth it for Scout alone. When played well scouting bikes and transports can basically win the game for you before it even starts.

That is the thing that will be the balancing point our HQ taxes are not very different, since RW is taking Sammael (due to lower cost) and WS are taking Khan on Moondrakken for scout (which RW already have).

Scout is a great rule, but Khan is not great.

AP3 CC weapon isn't all that and he is 150 pts on his bike.

You'd have to take a beatstick character to answer to other characters in challenges or any cc.