Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Here is the thing that I like about the White Scars bike army. I can buy 36 bikes w/12 grav guns for under 1000 points.

Are you...

Are you serious?

Yep 936 points for 6 units of 6 bikes with two Grav Guns each.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yep 936 points for 6 units of 6 bikes with two Grav Guns each.

That sounds so ridiculously fun. How many bikes can I afford to buy and NOT have my wife divorce me? Hmmm...

 Krellnus wrote:
That is the thing that will be the balancing point our HQ taxes are not very different, since RW is taking Sammael (due to lower cost) and WS are taking Khan on Moondrakken for scout (which RW already have).

Well a 50 points difference to me is fairly substantial. These are the points which will help determine if you have enough for those special weapons, or 2 more bikers. Sammael really doesn't bring much more to the table than khan. All sammael gets is a plasma cannon, better ap on his sword and EW on a T5 model....for 50 points. Does anyone think this is worth it? It I had the option, then I would take sammael with less gear at less points.

In larger points games Khan is certainly worth it, when you consider that every bike in your army gains scout because of him. When you think about how much it would cost as an upgrade to give each bike 'scout', then khan starts to look like a much better deal, even if his own personal stats are a bit tame. If we took a captain, with a bike and power sword, then it only comes in at 25 points less than khan. For those 25 points you give every bike in your army scout, and a few little perks to your wargear. Seems like a pretty competitive choice to me.

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

One problem with these kind of comparisons is that they do not factor in cover. Remember that Ravenwing bolter spam cannot be countered by cover (unless your units have a 5+ save or worse), the weight of fire brings most targets down, wheres the grav guns efficiency drops substantially when you factor it in. Another point to consider is that not every bike squad will have grav guns, wheres every ravenwing biker biker will have their bolters available (at least until the standard bearer gets taken down).
Overall I do agree with you though, point for point, whitescars more consistently do more and receive less damage per point than ravenwing.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
One problem with these kind of comparisons is that they do not factor in cover. Remember that Ravenwing bolter spam cannot be countered by cover (unless your units have a 5+ save or worse), the weight of fire brings most targets down, wheres the grav guns efficiency drops substantially when you factor it in. Another point to consider is that not every bike squad will have grav guns, wheres every ravenwing biker biker will have their bolters available (at least until the standard bearer gets taken down).
Overall I do agree with you though, point for point, whitescars more consistently do more and receive less damage per point than ravenwing.

Cover will not come into as much of a play in these comparisons.

Let me explain why. If your shooting at a unit of GEQ in cover, then the damage done drops equally for both ravenwing and white scars. This is because the both targets are now getting a 1/3 cover save.

If your shooting at MEQ, then the targets get a 1/3 save vs white scars but not against bolters. This means that the DPP vs MEQ drops by 1/3 vs those targets. The thing is the DPP vs MEQ is over twice that of ravenwing, so even with a 4+ save given to the targets (in ruins) the white scars are still doing more damage per point than ravenwing.

Ravenwing has its place. Its still the GEQ shredding king, but it just falls when your shooting at MEQ when compared to white scars. Given my experiences at NOVA last weekend, I would think that the GEQ killing power is better, but I would still go with white scars for the durability they provide.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
One problem with these kind of comparisons is that they do not factor in cover. Remember that Ravenwing bolter spam cannot be countered by cover (unless your units have a 5+ save or worse), the weight of fire brings most targets down, wheres the grav guns efficiency drops substantially when you factor it in. Another point to consider is that not every bike squad will have grav guns, wheres every ravenwing biker biker will have their bolters available (at least until the standard bearer gets taken down).
Overall I do agree with you though, point for point, whitescars more consistently do more and receive less damage per point than ravenwing.

Cover will not come into as much of a play in these comparisons.

Let me explain why. If your shooting at a unit of GEQ in cover, then the damage done drops equally for both ravenwing and white scars. This is because the both targets are now getting a 1/3 cover save.

If your shooting at MEQ, then the targets get a 1/3 save vs white scars but not against bolters. This means that the DPP vs MEQ drops by 1/3 vs those targets. The thing is the DPP vs MEQ is over twice that of ravenwing, so even with a 4+ save given to the targets (in ruins) the white scars are still doing more damage per point than ravenwing.

Ravenwing has its place. Its still the GEQ shredding king, but it just falls when your shooting at MEQ when compared to white scars. Given my experiences at NOVA last weekend, I would think that the GEQ killing power is better, but I would still go with white scars for the durability they provide.

Besides, if you really want to kill cover camping GEQs, the Thunderfire cannon now ignores directional cover with it's basic firing mode.

The TFC is definately a good supporting unit. Only 100 points and 4 barrage blasts / turn, definately on the short list for supporting units in my WS army

Puscifer wrote:
Scout is a great rule, but Khan is not great.

AP3 CC weapon isn't all that and he is 150 pts on his bike.

You'd have to take a beatstick character to answer to other characters in challenges or any cc.

I never run beatstick characters in any of my 40k armies, and have never once felt the need for one, so I don't know where the notion that you need one comes from.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Scout is a great rule, but Khan is not great.

AP3 CC weapon isn't all that and he is 150 pts on his bike.

You'd have to take a beatstick character to answer to other characters in challenges or any cc.

I never run beatstick characters in any of my 40k armies, and have never once felt the need for one, so I don't know where the notion that you need one comes from.

Agreed, especially in a SM bike army. At least DA can get black knights to support someone in CC if they want to. In a C:SM army it is really out of place.

Yea, when your paying 150 points for Khan, your paying extra for the ability to scout (and outflank) your army.

Neither Khan nor Sammael can hold back a DP, Abbadon, or any other hard hitter.

The reason you take them is to unlock bikes as troops.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yep 936 points for 6 units of 6 bikes with two Grav Guns each.

Sounds like a weird unit setup. Why not go for 4 bikes, 1 attack bike with 2 gravguns, 1 combigrav and multimelta? 1074pts (I believe, without having the codex yet) for six units, so slightly more expensive, but same amount of wounds and much more firepower.

 Illumini wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yep 936 points for 6 units of 6 bikes with two Grav Guns each.

Sounds like a weird unit setup. Why not go for 4 bikes, 1 attack bike with 2 gravguns, 1 combigrav and multimelta? 1074pts (I believe, without having the codex yet) for six units, so slightly more expensive, but same amount of wounds and much more firepower.

Because then they can't be taken as troops...?

Do you need 5 bikers, not 5 models? The attackbike doesn`t count anymore to get to 5 members?

 Illumini wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yep 936 points for 6 units of 6 bikes with two Grav Guns each.

Sounds like a weird unit setup. Why not go for 4 bikes, 1 attack bike with 2 gravguns, 1 combigrav and multimelta? 1074pts (I believe, without having the codex yet) for six units, so slightly more expensive, but same amount of wounds and much more firepower.

Its my opinion that MM attack bike is no longer worth the points.

In the 5th edition codex, the base attack bike was 15 more points than a normal bike. This means that on a per-wound basis it was cheaper to get the attack bike. It was nearly always a steal. Even the MM attack bike was the same cost on a per-wound basis.

Some big things have changed since those days.
- Normal bikes got cheaper while MM bikes got more expensive. This means that the MM bike no longer is a 'more efficient' option. In fact now one MM bike costs more than 2.5 normal bikes. Owch.
- Vehicles became more vulnerable to assaults. This means that just assaulting with frag grenades + melta bombs are more effective. This has lowered the need for MM bikes.
- Vehicles are less common. In the days of 5th edition, mech was king. Today only one build is mech heavy -- serpents. Those builds are very vulnerable to assaults from krak gernades.
- Wound allocation magic has changed. I can no longer use the extra wound on the attack bike as an alblative wound as easily. If I could even get a 4+ LOS from it, I could play some tricks, but now all I can do is start with it in the front and move it to the back after it takes a wound. What if the squad takes 2 wounds? Then I just lost a 45-55pt attack bike.
- In your config, there are only 2 ablative wounds until your losing critical models. The configuration I'm looking at gives twice that.

I've taken a long, hard look at the HB bike. What it brings to the party is a way to extend the kill range of the squad. The last thing I want to have happen is only be able to kill 3 models because the others are further away than 24"! However the cost is still detouring me. Your paying 24 points for that HB wound. On a 150 point squad, that's a pretty big jump in price.

This is not to say my idea is the best. As Larry Wall said "There is more than one way to do it!" Try out the MM/combi-grav combo and tell me how it works out.

My idea is to keep the bikes cheap, so I have more to throw at long range support. My biggest throughts now are how to bring that long range support. Part of me wants to proxy out 9 cent devs so I can have 81 grav shots per turn (!!). However, I'm leaning twords Tau for broadsides/riptide or Eldar for a wraithknight and some serpents/hawks. (swooping hawks are amazing vs GEQ and AV14 -- and would be a nice compliment to the list)

MM isn't just for AT though, it also adds the ID threat to your shooting to deter the opponent from trying to tank all of your shooting on a character.

 labmouse42 wrote:
My idea is to keep the bikes cheap, so I have more to throw at long range support. My biggest throughts now are how to bring that long range support. Part of me wants to proxy out 9 cent devs so I can have 81 grav shots per turn (!!). However, I'm leaning twords Tau for broadsides/riptide or Eldar for a wraithknight and some serpents/hawks. (swooping hawks are amazing vs GEQ and AV14 -- and would be a nice compliment to the list)

What are you using the long range support for?

With scout, your basic threat range on turn 1 is 42" from deployment with the grav weapons, which is pretty good. I don't think there's a pressing need for more long range stuff.

As has been mentioned, the main defence against air power is manoeuvrability. So, anything static and long ranged is going to be a prime target for enemy air.

Would it be better to mount any support weapons on speeders? Other fliers? Or just more bikes, to make as much use of the bonuses as possible??

I played a bike army for a lot of 5th edition.
One of the problems I encountered was the footprint of the bikes. They are really big models (when compared to infantry) to the bases being so long.

As such, when you throw down 20+ bikes, its hard to get any more models in that area without seriously bunching up -- which is something you generally want to avoid.

This is why I want long range tools. I learned back then that long range tools allow you bring your entire army to bear. Just going with "More bikes" does not work - since you will have units that cannot engage.

Strom talons are something to consider. Mike Braynt has often talked about his 3 talon 3 thunderfire cannon lists.

In my (admittedly fairly limited) 6th ed experience, ablative bodies are close to useless. With the insane firepower the new armies can put out, a few extra bodies is not going to help much.

The best way to make sure your important guys survive is to kill the enemy before they can kill you, meet insane firepower with insaner firepower.

With 3 gravs/plasma and a multimelta, you are getting a lot of firepower out of all your troop slots without breaking the bank pts-wise.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
White Scars are an interesting option. The problem I see though is that it's really hard to compete with the sheer firepower thrown out by a Ravenwing army with the Banner of Devastation. For this reason I think pure bike armies will be better served by Codex: Dark Angels. However, Space Marine bikes are certainly a viable option-- I just think pure biker builds will do worse than hybrid builds with both bikes and appropriate support elements.

There are a few problems with the Ravenwing army.
* First, they are 27 points a pop instead of 21 points a pop. That means they are 77.7% the cost, meaning you get a lot more C:SM bikes on the table.
* Your not paying the tax for the banner + LRC. Your shaving ~400 points of the top that way.
* Your not paying the sammael/azrael tax. Sure they don't suck as ICs, but they are more expensive than a biker captain/khan.

So does Ravenwing have better damage per point ratios? At this point I'm not sure. I've got to plug the numbers into my excel sheet to find out. My gut feeling is that they will be better, but will come with a high entry fee.

Here is the thing that I like about the White Scars bike army. I can buy 36 bikes w/12 grav guns for under 1000 points. That means I still have a lot I can add to the army in the form of terminators/centurians/whirlwinds/etc... A ravening biker army just can't bring as much to the table.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I played White Scars for the entirely of 4th edition. I skipped most of 5th, but I'm sure my experience still holds: using nothing but bikes is crazy talk.

White Scars players should treat bikes as a replacement for Tactical Marines. Just like you don't field entire armies of Tacticals, you don't field entire armies of bikes. 2-3 squadrons is plenty if you have proper support - Land Speeders, Predators, Whirlwinds, flyers, etc.

Well, things are different in this codex. They are cheap. You can field 30-36 of them and not break your point budget. You can still get tons of toys!

Are you "running the numbers" with a RW command squad deathstar instead of a LRC? I think the deathstar is a much better banner carrier & putts a lot more threat than a LRC.

Don't forget In a game of any size it is almost impossible to keep all your bikes within range of a Dakka banner.

The WS abiliity to spread out and ignore dangerous will help alot v helldrakes etc.

In regard to MC....

Most armies that have MC can bring FMC. I still think investing in AA is a good idea especially with those cool new AA tanks C:SM got! (buy!buy!buy!)

Daemons have the option to take their FMC without armor if they want. Theyll still be durable with invuln saves and other buffs depending on gift rolling.

How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

jakl277 wrote:
In regard to MC....

Most armies that have MC can bring FMC. I still think investing in AA is a good idea especially with those cool new AA tanks C:SM got! (buy!buy!buy!)

Daemons have the option to take their FMC without armor if they want. Theyll still be durable with invuln saves and other buffs depending on gift rolling.

How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

I count

Grey Knights
Tyranids
Tau
Orks (FW)
Daemons
Chaos space marines
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons

As being able to take monstrous creatures

Out of these only the two flavors of Chaos and Tyranids can take FMCs.

Hardly most.

jakl277 wrote:
How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

Drakes and Tau sure, but Eldar rarely put out AP1-3 and Ignore Cover in the one attack.

I was referring to MC lists like 4+ MC. Which i guess is really just nids and daemons.

I was just making the point that dont rely on grav guns to be an anti-FMC/MC list thing. They are sweet against the mega walkers like wraithbutts and riptide.

I still am of the opinion that plasma is superior to grav.

jakl277 wrote:
In regard to MC....

Most armies that have MC can bring FMC. I still think investing in AA is a good idea especially with those cool new AA tanks C:SM got! (buy!buy!buy!)

Daemons have the option to take their FMC without armor if they want. Theyll still be durable with invuln saves and other buffs depending on gift rolling.

How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

Obviously it depends on what armour, but for the most part I would say rather well. With everyone in the army able to move quickly and have krak grenades, you are a threat to most vehicles even before you take special weapons, and are one of the biggest threats to serpent spam lists by merit of being able toreach them quickly and hit their rear armour in melee (watch out for wraithguard flamers though.).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jakl277 wrote:
How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

Drakes and Tau sure, but Eldar rarely put out AP1-3 and Ignore Cover in the one attack.

Dark Reapers don't ignore cover, but they do ignore Jink. I can testify from experience that these guys are the No. 1 target if you're running a bike list, especially if they're buffed by a farseer.

 Hedgehog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jakl277 wrote:
How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

Drakes and Tau sure, but Eldar rarely put out AP1-3 and Ignore Cover in the one attack.

Dark Reapers don't ignore cover, but they do ignore Jink. I can testify from experience that these guys are the No. 1 target if you're running a bike list, especially if they're buffed by a farseer.

A lot of people run the reapers with Tau commanders who do ignore cover and then have tank hunter as well.

As much as I like the following combo;

Dark Reapers + Farseer (hopefully with Perfect Timing and the 4++ save power) will completely ruin a unit of bikes... ONE unit of bikes... some of the other bike units will eventually blast all the Reapers off the board...

 RancidHate wrote:
As much as I like the following combo;

Dark Reapers + Farseer (hopefully with Perfect Timing and the 4++ save power) will completely ruin a unit of bikes... ONE unit of bikes... some of the other bike units will eventually blast all the Reapers off the board...

Plus White Scars can now enter terrain with impunity, giving them a save in any game in which the Farseer doesn't get perfect timing. White Scars got huge buffs with the new Codex, but Imperial Fists and UM are still highly competitive builds as well.

 Hedgehog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jakl277 wrote:
How would bikers fare against mechanized lists? Also eldar or tau or anyone who can get enough divination rolls to grab perfect timing is going to be very dangerous against this sort of list. Same with heldrakes (which are pretty common)

Drakes and Tau sure, but Eldar rarely put out AP1-3 and Ignore Cover in the one attack.

Dark Reapers don't ignore cover, but they do ignore Jink. I can testify from experience that these guys are the No. 1 target if you're running a bike list, especially if they're buffed by a farseer.

I'll admit, I forgot about them. I stand corrected. They will certainly be a tough nut to crack. That might be one of those match-ups where you need to use Khan's Scout to Outflank.