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Martel732 wrote:
I'm not trying to get the thread locked. But I've had this conversation about MLs over and over. The math says they suck. Especially with the new price tag.

This concept is important when analyzing the new Centurions. Since half their firepower comes from a weapon that is really not effective in 6th edition, I have to question whether these models are good or not.

To be fair I'd rather pay the points to have a ML over the Hurricane Bolters. I'd also argue that the ML or Hurricane bolters aren't half the firepower of the Centurion (at least the Grav-Cannon version).

Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

I think you are adding a lot into my statement. It's just a matter of choosing to spend time and $$ on this or play a game where the devs give a $%^^& like Starcraft.

I don't mind losing at all, but I like the loss to be mainly a function of my choices vs those of my opponent. Not Eldar and Tau looking in my general direction and me picking all my marines up. This is getting too reminiscent of 2nd edition for me.

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Well we've already found a possible cheese unit for Salamanders regarding ASM, read here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550654.page

Vulcan didn't loose digital weapons btw.

And yes, I'm really looking forward to taking Devs with 4 MM in a drop pod, only comes out to 145 points! With Vulcan Twin-Linking them even fliers will think twice about getting too close...

Martel732 wrote:
They can't pop most tanks. Trying reading the thread. And small blasts suck.

I did. ML suck for you so OK. They don't for me. Are there better options? Sure.

First game I'm playing against Nidzilla. With ml's I can wound the MC's and blast the gants.

Then the next game im playing against FMC demons. Sure some of them got iron arm. But I bet all 3-4 DP's didn't. If I kill one dp then they made there points back.

Wraithwing next game? Wraiths with fail that 3++ and die to one missle. If they loose 2-3 wraiths in the two turns you have before an assault they paid for their points. When your AA kills the scythes then you can murder the warriors when they come on the table.

IG next? Chimeras dead. Plasma vets when they come out are packed nicely for a blast from the ml's

Wave serpent spam? OK that they do have a hard time against. But s8 still glances on a 4 and pens on a 5-6.

This is all assuming you are not taking just one ml. Cause in that case yea their not so good.

As for the codex. Seems pretty good to me. Iron hands and white scars have the best chapter tactics. Tigurius, Emperors champ seems really good. Centurions are meh. They would better if they could deepstrike or had a invuln. Cheaper marines are good. Grav depends on your own meta. I'd give it a 8 out a 10.

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Vulkan did not lose the Digital Weapons, they are now incorporated into the Gauntlet of the Forge.

As a Salamanders player, I'm rather happy with the chapter tactics.

See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

nobody wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Vulkan did not lose the Digital Weapons, they are now incorporated into the Gauntlet of the Forge.

As a Salamanders player, I'm rather happy with the chapter tactics.

Same here. Salamanders didn't really lose much, and where they lost, they gained something that makes up for it. Being able to ally from the codex itself also gives us the ability to add in units that wouldn't normally benefit from our CT.

 spacewolved wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can't pop most tanks. Trying reading the thread. And small blasts suck.

I did. ML suck for you so OK. They don't for me. Are there better options? Sure.

First game I'm playing against Nidzilla. With ml's I can wound the MC's and blast the gants.

Then the next game im playing against FMC demons. Sure some of them got iron arm. But I bet all 3-4 DP's didn't. If I kill one dp then they made there points back.

Wraithwing next game? Wraiths with fail that 3++ and die to one missle. If they loose 2-3 wraiths in the two turns you have before an assault they paid for their points. When your AA kills the scythes then you can murder the warriors when they come on the table.

IG next? Chimeras dead. Plasma vets when they come out are packed nicely for a blast from the ml's

Wave serpent spam? OK that they do have a hard time against. But s8 still glances on a 4 and pens on a 5-6.

This is all assuming you are not taking just one ml. Cause in that case yea their not so good.

You are cherry picking your data.

Do the math on MLs vs Chimeras. You likely got very lucky in that game.

It's not about making points back. It's about heavy support engaging targets like Riptides, AV 13, etc.

Besides, in all your examples lascannons would do better and kill 2+ armor targets to boot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

Yup, pretty much. I hate it. I don't want it to be true. But it is.

Agreed on Salamanders. Still the best build & very viable. They actually got a few buffs with reroll flame armor saves & being able to master craft any characters weapon. Th/Ss termies got nerfed, that's about it.

Stalkers help give some answers to both race's skimmers.

LotD give you a way of cracking both factions gunlines by being able to DS (rerolling scatter), ignoring cover saves, being fearless, and having what's effectively a storm shield on each model to help them survive the interceptor fire from Riptides. Back them up with Thunderfire cannons who are using Barrage to hide behind buildings and drop cover ignoring rounds.

Grav weapons and sternguard can do ugly things to Wraithknights and Riptides.

nobody wrote:
Stalkers help give some answers to both race's skimmers.

LotD give you a way of cracking both factions gunlines by being able to DS (rerolling scatter), ignoring cover saves, being fearless, and having what's effectively a storm shield on each model to help them survive the interceptor fire from Riptides. Back them up with Thunderfire cannons who are using Barrage to hide behind buildings and drop cover ignoring rounds.

Grav weapons and sternguard can do ugly things to Wraithknights and Riptides.

At what cost? Marines are too expensive to be suicide troops. I have busted marine player after marine player dropping sternguard in on my BA. They do their damage, and then I cut them to ribbons. And the BA are BAD codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not trying to get the thread locked. But I've had this conversation about MLs over and over. The math says they suck. Especially with the new price tag.

This concept is important when analyzing the new Centurions. Since half their firepower comes from a weapon that is really not effective in 6th edition, I have to question whether these models are good or not.

To be fair I'd rather pay the points to have a ML over the Hurricane Bolters. I'd also argue that the ML or Hurricane bolters aren't half the firepower of the Centurion (at least the Grav-Cannon version).

Agreed, but the range on the grav thingie is killer. A smart player will avoid their area or melt them before they move in. They really aren't that hard to kill, especially for Eldar.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Agreed on Salamanders. Still the best build & very viable. They actually got a few buffs with reroll flame armor saves & being able to master craft any characters weapon. Th/Ss termies got nerfed, that's about it.

And the way I look at the TH/SS Terminator nerf, is that it wasn't even that impacting since they are being used less on the table anyway due to points increase and Eldar.

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

What problems are you having with Tau or Eldar? I've found that Marines have the flexibility to deal with both of these armies quite effectively.

The fact that they have shot everything to death in about 3-4 turns. Flexibility means nothing when you are dead.

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

No you should have titled it "I'm gonna bitch and moan about a codex the day it comes out, and then a month later when all the good builds I was too lazy/angry/butthurt to discover for myself are posted, I'm then gonna change my tune and say 6th SM is da best codex ever"

It happened with Tau, with Eldar, with DA, with CD, even with CSM. Every. Single. Codex.

It won't happen with this one. I feel safe in saying this because it is so close to the old codex.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

What problems are you having with Tau or Eldar? I've found that Marines have the flexibility to deal with both of these armies quite effectively.

So what are your strategies in beating 7 crisis suits, 14 drones, farsight, & shadowsun all tl, ignore cover, tank hunter, etc.? Or 4 riptides with IC's tanking? Or a pulse bomb putting out hundreds of S5 shots with concentric overlapping rings of over watch coverage? Or 6 wave serpents who deploy with their rear on the table edge filled with rending troops & guarded by a wraith knight who hop around at 60" range? Or jetseer council with a re-rollable 2++? Or a combination of these? It sounds like you have it figured out. Of course this is all rhetorical. Please don't answer it here, but feel free to do so in another thread & point me to it.

There are no reliable strategies for beating those builds in this codex. I don't know if others will admit it yet, but this codex is too similar to the old one.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

No you should have titled it "I'm gonna bitch and moan about a codex the day it comes out, and then a month later when all the good builds I was too lazy/angry/butthurt to discover for myself are posted, I'm then gonna change my tune and say 6th SM is da best codex ever"

It happened with Tau, with Eldar, with DA, with CD, even with CSM. Every. Single. Codex.

As far as I can see the only truly viable competitive list remains the same, salamanders. Others may be decent but, like CSM & DA, it has maybe 1-2 actual competitive builds, any of which cannot stand up to a skilled player using Tau or Eldar. Daemons are a wildcard & have some nasty varieties. As for what has happened in the past I can't speak to it because I really only just started posting here. So tell me what is it you have against me specifically since you haven't actually offered anything related to the actual subject?

So now you're reported grandpa.

No. There is Stormraven spam. It's horrible and trite, but it works.

Never tried it but i suppose long as you don't load them up with expensive units that die horribly when they fall down & go boom. Though a Tau list with skyfire& interceptor on a few things could still ruin your day.

That's true. I've pointed out the flaws to the list, but it definitely works well in many tournaments.

4 Stormravens takes even the Tau a while to shoot down.

Ah so the whiners are already here.

Martel, I think it's about time you considered not playing until 7e because clearly this game is going to give you a heart attack.

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

No, I have my research to give me one of those.

I really like GW's models, but it's just really frustrating to paint the stuff and then go to a physical game store and lose because "balance" is a forbidden word at GW. It's just math. GW doesn't try at all.

No sane person can think that the Vendetta or the Wave Serpent are appropriately priced, just for obvious examples.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

What is with you guys? Seriously if you have some insight into some tactics that could be good by all means point them out. Otherwise you guys are the ones spamming & flaming a legitimate discussion. You don't need to post here if you have nothing to add to the discussion.

 Fulcrum wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

What is with you guys? Seriously if you have some insight into some tactics that could be good by all means point them out. Otherwise you guys are the ones spamming & flaming a legitimate discussion. You don't need to post here if you have nothing to add to the discussion.

Iron Hands in my opinion seem like the best fit for my play style of invincible walls of armor, although these days I primarily play with the Siege Assault Vanguard.

A Spartan Assault tank with IWND makes me very happy, and I can afford to pay for a squad of assault termies to fit in it and obliterate anything I choose.

Of course that does make me have to choose between Termies in a SAT or Contemptors, which are also very much excellent.

But the reason why I tease Martel is that he always seems to have his jimmies rustled.

I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.