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So you are saying that they don't die as fast when you have weapons that ignore cover?
The pain a Riptide brings to Centurions is just as big.
At least bikers can take FNP fairly cheap.

"not put too many points into"
In my opinion they are already too many points when you don't upgrade them

In other words: thanks gw morons for f*****g up the SM armies vs competitive eldar/tau again with 5 more years of "fun" and "balanced" games against those.
Really intelligent but that´s what you get for hireing people with the right attitudes instead of common sense and brains.

But as I said, all is not bad, in just-fun and fluff gaming the codex is spot on besides some really IQ liberated misses (did I mention attitude over brain cells?) like ven dreads and overall terminator worth that some clueless, beef witted person on the dev team for some attitude-tied reason thinks are usable. Probably the same genius that invented the psilencers of you ask me.

EDIT: I can't read.

Good lord I havent seen this much hate since grey knight hit the table...

Just because there isnt anything that screams "I will rape all other codices because I am SPEHS MEHRINES ROAR!!!!!" doesnt mean the codex isnt any good.

It is first and foremost a game of chance where your lascannons could count for nothing if you forget to plug them in (what I call bad dice rolls).

The codex has its place amongst the others and will be a fun and competitive book if people give it a chance.

All this rage sustains me....:pinches nipples:

I'm not saying this codex will be near as good as Tau, but I am reminded a lot of this thread with all this whinging being done here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519014.page

 tomjoad wrote:
I'm not saying this codex will be near as good as Tau, but I am reminded a lot of this thread with all this whinging being done here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519014.page

And we all know how bad they turned out. Amirite!

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
All this rage sustains me....:pinches nipples:

Really, really not an image I needed....

I understand, but we already know how half of this works from CA.

So you are saying that they don't die as fast when you have weapons that ignore cover?
The pain a Riptide brings to Centurions is just as big.
At least bikers can take FNP fairly cheap.

No, I was saying that it is easy to give a squad of Centurions a 4+ invulnerable save. Bikes are relying on cover. You aren't going to put Tigirus with bikes or keep a bike Command Squad on a Skyshield Landing Pad.

"not put too many points into"
In my opinion they are already too many points when you don't upgrade them

Fair enough. As I said, time will tell. I think that they seem like they could be a competitive unit. You don't. I'm trying to go to BFS in a month. At that point, we'll have a better picture of Centurion viability.

Martel732 wrote:
I understand, but we already know how half of this works from CA.

Well, we know that having access to 14pt tac marines isn't enough to beat heldrakes on it's own.

Aside from that, I don't see any lessons Dark Angels taught us that will apply to C:SM. DA's don't have good fliers, they don't have Thunderfire Cannons, and their bikes are too expensive. They have Stubborn instead of any of the quite strong Chapter Tactics. They don't have access to the powerful option that Tigurius, Lysander, Pedro, Khan, or Vulkan can bring to the table. They don't have Sternguard. They don't have the ability to take a monstrous Chapter Master or Honour Guard.

Dark Angels were, unfortunately, given lousy terminators and good yet expensive bikes as if those two options were supposed to make up for the many many advantages proper Marines hold over them. If I was a DA player, I'd be royally pissed. As is, luckily, I am looking forward to using this huge pile of superior options and figuring out the best way to win with them.

Edit: I forgot to mention Centurions. I'm not convinced by them, but if they're good, that's another thing Dark Angels haven't got.

Martel732 wrote:
I understand, but we already know how half of this works from CA.

CA is the ugly stepchild compared to C:SM.

C:SM seems to be a simple update of the 5th edition codex. I'm not mad about it, but as stated it could've been better. As for DA players being pissed I've come to look at DA not as a solo force, though they can do it, but as a valuable ally force. Cheap divination Libby's that can tote power field generators can really strengthen the survivability of your units or anything camping back field, infravisors to negate night fighting to a devastator unit. I think the IG would benefit more from DA allies than SM would.

It's still more data than we had on codex: Tau. Yeah, C:SM is better than DA, but there's nothing in there as good as the Wave Serpent or battle focus. Or Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:
It's still more data than we had on codex: Tau. Yeah, C:SM is better than DA, but there's nothing in there as good as the Wave Serpent or battle focus. Or Riptides.

Honestly, this is why I am genuinely rooting for grav cents to be good. I'm not really planning on using them, but if they can just shrink the use of riptides a little, I'll be a happy general. I've only got one game with the new codex so far, and the Tau-Eldar I played against would have been a heck of a good list even without them, but I'd have had a better chance against 0-1 riptides than the 2 my opponent brought. Even 2 seems like he was taking it easy on them compared to some of the lists you see these days.

Martel732 wrote:
It's still more data than we had on codex: Tau. Yeah, C:SM is better than DA, but there's nothing in there as good as the Wave Serpent or battle focus. Or Riptides.

Pick your own chapter tactics are comparable to battle focus. Tank hunting devestation or centurions are phenomenal. If you're worried about drakes, put them in a rhino. Or buy a couple more bodies and put them in a bastion. Or on a sky shield. An entire i4 army with hit and run is better than battle focus, especially on guys who can't ever get swept and auto rally if they fail morale.

They may not have no-brainer choices like riptides, but cheaper marines means more bodies and more toys. It just may be enough once people start getting lists into tournaments. They also have 2 solid flyers where most armies only have 1 at this point. They have 2 dedicated anti flyer tanks where most armies have none.

I for one see it as a strong codex but it won't show on paper as much as on the table. Honestly the broken record of "but eldar this and tau that" is already old and Martel is the first to make my ignore list in 3 years because I can't even enjoy reading a tactics thread without his myopic, pessimistic, and predictable complaints.

 tomjoad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I understand, but we already know how half of this works from CA.

Well, we know that having access to 14pt tac marines isn't enough to beat heldrakes on it's own.

Aside from that, I don't see any lessons Dark Angels taught us that will apply to C:SM. DA's don't have good fliers, they don't have Thunderfire Cannons, and their bikes are too expensive. They have Stubborn instead of any of the quite strong Chapter Tactics. They don't have access to the powerful option that Tigurius, Lysander, Pedro, Khan, or Vulkan can bring to the table. They don't have Sternguard. They don't have the ability to take a monstrous Chapter Master or Honour Guard.

Dark Angels were, unfortunately, given lousy terminators and good yet expensive bikes as if those two options were supposed to make up for the many many advantages proper Marines hold over them. If I was a DA player, I'd be royally pissed. As is, luckily, I am looking forward to using this huge pile of superior options and figuring out the best way to win with them.

Edit: I forgot to mention Centurions. I'm not convinced by them, but if they're good, that's another thing Dark Angels haven't got.

I was a DA player and yes, I am royally pissed.

The shoddy last DA codex was why I jumped ship from them to Vanilla.

Yes, my DW got better... Until Tau and Eldar came out, which then meant my DW went the way of the dodo.

 Continuity wrote:
Sounds like 5th ed IG

Puscifer wrote:
Martel nailed it on the head.

They have utility, but overall the book lacks that one thing to make it great.

Also, Tau and Eldar are the Leafblower list of 6th. Sooooo much firepower and tough to beat.

Didn't IG table people left and right on the first 1-2 turns with leafblower?

am i the only one thats glad the SM codex doesnt have anything screaming at you to use it like Tau and Eldar do? What was the very first thing people did with tau and still do? 3 riptides.... i dont suspect any spam list for SM (except maybe bikes with the whole White Scar stuff going on) will be viable. I hate it when a codex has this 1 unit that is so good youre practically a moron for not using it (riptides, serpents, helldrakes, or dreadknights to name a few)

Kangodo wrote:

 JGrand wrote:
I don't think the new dex is bad, but I have trouble seeing it overtake Eldar/Tau/Daemons. The best pure SM list I've come up with so far:

Tiggy
5 Sniper Scouts
3 Cents w Grav

Kahn
8 Bikes, 2 Plasma
3x7 Bikes, 2 Grav
8 Bikes, 2 Melta
3 Thunderfire Cannons

1842

No perfect by any means, but it has the best of both world by allying Ultras with White Scars. I haven't seen this in action, so this is all theory.

Why would anyone want to play Grav-Cents at a competitive level?
Do you know what else has 15 Grav-shots with T5 and doesn't get annihilated by any AP2-weapon? CCS-Bikers!
I would trade that UM-detachment for more AA and I would field more smaller bike-groups with more special weapons.

CCS Bikers are nice, but also get annihilated by AP2, they also only sport 5 wounds at a fairly steep price. They also don't come stock with 2 wounds and a 2+ save. I like Bikers and think they will be pretty dangerous with Grav, but unfortunately I think Bikes are still a little too flimsy. Tau/Eldar/Necrons all have a ton of mid-high strength shots, these largely invalidate the increased T of being on a bike.

I'm not saying Bikes are bad, i'm just not sure they are necessarily the best platform for Grav. List composition matters a lot and I think once the codex settles you'll see a number of people fielding Centurions and/or Bikes, I find both to be competitive. People crap on the short range, but 24" is a bigger radius than people think, I think the Cents have the durability to be able to make it midfield and blast away.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through.

Where do you play where there are a few hundred players rotating through?!?
Seriously, I would love to visit.

In answer to your question, more playstesting/mathammering is required before a solid competitive build can be determined. As has always been the case after a new codex is released it takes a few weeks to determine the right builds.

Oahu, it's all the military bases & the high level of transient turnover. So unless I want to fork over a few grand, east coast tourneys are not happening. But I do attend the bigger west coast tournaments. Debating going as far inland as AZ this year. I just like to play at a high level but still have competitive balance, which is like an oxymoron in this game. Comp tournaments would probably be better so there is incentive to not create the extreme abusive lists that have become the norm in 6th. But it is not to be. I just feel like when I'm playing against non-competitive players(not lists) the game is way too easy & I hate clubbing baby seals just as much as I hate being beaten by a list & not the player. So I guess competitive players with fluffy lists would be great for me but it doesn't exist in my area.

 Leth wrote:
Got to remember with the bolter drill is that it is an approximately 11% improvement in efficiency.

So if you fired 9 shots you are approximately firing 10 with bolter drill.

It is handy but not something I would build an army around.

Tank hunter on the other hand......

It is exactly a 1/6 (~16,6%) improvement of efficiency. one shot out of 6 will give you an extra shot. So 6 shots with it are equivalent to 7 without.

If you're not convinced:
36 shots without=> 24 hits
36 shot with: 24 hits, 6 rerolls, 4 of which are hits => 28 hits.
28 compared to 24 => +16.6%

 Fulcrum wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through.

Where do you play where there are a few hundred players rotating through?!?
Seriously, I would love to visit.

In answer to your question, more playstesting/mathammering is required before a solid competitive build can be determined. As has always been the case after a new codex is released it takes a few weeks to determine the right builds.

Oahu, it's all the military bases & the high level of transient turnover. So unless I want to fork over a few grand, east coast tourneys are not happening. But I do attend the bigger west coast tournaments. Debating going as far inland as AZ this year. I just like to play at a high level but still have competitive balance, which is like an oxymoron in this game. Comp tournaments would probably be better so there is incentive to not create the extreme abusive lists that have become the norm in 6th. But it is not to be. I just feel like when I'm playing against non-competitive players(not lists) the game is way too easy & I hate clubbing baby seals just as much as I hate being beaten by a list & not the player. So I guess competitive players with fluffy lists would be great for me but it doesn't exist in my area.

This is why I like games and tourneys that do not allow more than two of any unit, unless it's a troops choice.

Drakespam? No more than two.
Three Riptides? Nope.

Balances the game right out and forces players to build balanced or fluffy lists.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Krak grenades are still the best way to kill wave serpents (saying this as someone who also plays Eldar). Any serpent that gets caught by a couple of guys with kraks is going down--no shield, no cover.

Grav guns are optimized for dealing with the 2+ and 3+ save monstrous creatures. The fact that they have a chance to hurt vehicles too is just a bonus.

So Vs. Eldar, you use the grav guns to take down the wraithknight that is guarding the serpents, then assault the wave serpents with krak grenades. I'm glad I didn't spring for a wraithknight model, because grav guns pretty much own them.

I largely agree, but with the Wriathknight, consider two things:

They can stand and get cover; not amazing, but gives them some resistance.

Heavy Wraithcannon outrange Grav weapons of all types, one each hit one-shots a Termitubby.

Bikers have to get a bit closer to shoot it.

If they are close, the Wraithknight can assault these units, and it's likely to dent bikers quite badly and kill an entire Centurion unit by itself with little trouble.

The SM Codex is going to depend synergy. That is the whole point of Chapter Tactics.

I love how D-Cannon are instant win against Cents. What happens when the Cent is in terrain/ What happens if that Cent is in terrain bolstered by a Tech Marine. What happens when Tiggy throws invisibility on them?

Simply spouting things like because X weapon in the game does Y to Z unit, it doesnt make for a instant hard counter. You still have to play the game.

Important to the SM codex is that they can get a highly mobile scoring platform for 100 points in a LSS. In vassal games Khan Bikers are running roughshod over Tau gunlines because they can take the cheap scorign kroot and pathfinder markers out of the game on turn one with Blind.

Of course Tau player will adjust but again that's why the game is played. Punch v. counter punch. I don't think SM codex trumps Tau and Eldar but tools are there and a good player with a solid meta list can prevail.

Glocknall wrote:
The SM Codex is going to depend synergy. That is the whole point of Chapter Tactics.

Actually, as I can see it, C:SM is all about raw, stand-alone power. There is only a handful of "synergy units" and all of them are Unique Characters. Chapter Tactics only determine the nature of the power. Units do their stuff on their own and they are not dependent on the support of other units in their task.

Space Marine synergy is not like Tau or Eldar where its a transparent X unit buffs Y unit for Z effect, SM works like a tool box where you slot units into roles and get them to the places they need to be to do it. Best Marine lists IMO are mobile, hard hitting and leverage their durability to best effect.

A example of a synergistic marine list is Drop Podding Ironclads, with scouting bikers supporting, T-Fires dropping barrage for pins, LSS using blind, Devs or Cents providing Supporting Fire, While Tacs grab objectives.

Glocknall wrote:

A example of a synergistic marine list is Drop Podding Ironclads, with scouting bikers supporting, T-Fires dropping barrage for pins, LSS using blind, Devs or Cents providing Supporting Fire, While Tacs grab objectives.

Well, the only real synergy I can see there is the Scout Bikers and the DPClads (and even then it is quite minor as DPs in general don't realyl worry about scatter)... I mean, the other units would do the same job in the same way with the same efficiency if the others weren't there. Yes, the Space Marine army is a toolbox army - you can't increase the efficiency of your monkey wrench by holding a screwdriver in the other hand. You have your tools, they do their jobs and you only need to point and click to make them effective.

Saldiven wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
All this rage sustains me....:pinches nipples:

Really, really not an image I needed....

But it made me literally LOL though, so there

Glocknall wrote:
The SM Codex is going to depend synergy. That is the whole point of Chapter Tactics.

I love how D-Cannon are instant win against Cents. What happens when the Cent is in terrain/ What happens if that Cent is in terrain bolstered by a Tech Marine. What happens when Tiggy throws invisibility on them?

Simply spouting things like because X weapon in the game does Y to Z unit, it doesnt make for a instant hard counter. You still have to play the game.

Actually, it's to counter the point that they (with Grav weapons) counter WK (which is what was being said earlier). They do to a certain extent, but they are in bolstered cover, they limit their threat range due to the lowish range of a Grav Cannon and must leave it to extend that range. Tiggy is great with them; of course! that's why he's a 150+ point character (though some argue he may be a bit undercosted, but that's not for this thread).