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 schadenfreude wrote:
I think IG thudd guns are appropriately priced, and up to 4 of them can be purchased as a single unit. If you're not familiar they are an artillery piece that is 1/2 the cost of a TFC crewed by 3 guardsmen and dishes out 5/5 small pies at a rate of heavy 4, or 8 shots for a pair of thudd guns the same price as a TFC. They are really nasty when 4 of them get a prescience, but 2 of them with no TL is just 8 small pies that are wildly inaccurate. That's my baseline, and why I'm so meh about the TFC.

Thudd guns are generally considered completely broken and are one of the main arguments used to prevent FW from being allowed in tournaments. If you think TFCs are bad compared to Thudd guns... well, duh?

 Kingsley wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think IG thudd guns are appropriately priced, and up to 4 of them can be purchased as a single unit. If you're not familiar they are an artillery piece that is 1/2 the cost of a TFC crewed by 3 guardsmen and dishes out 5/5 small pies at a rate of heavy 4, or 8 shots for a pair of thudd guns the same price as a TFC. They are really nasty when 4 of them get a prescience, but 2 of them with no TL is just 8 small pies that are wildly inaccurate. That's my baseline, and why I'm so meh about the TFC.

Thudd guns are generally considered completely broken and are one of the main arguments used to prevent FW from being allowed in tournaments. If you think TFCs are bad compared to Thudd guns... well, duh?

Most of those arguments were made when thudd guns were direct fire and took an elites slot. The nerf to barrage for thudd guns is still relatively recent.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think IG thudd guns are appropriately priced, and up to 4 of them can be purchased as a single unit. If you're not familiar they are an artillery piece that is 1/2 the cost of a TFC crewed by 3 guardsmen and dishes out 5/5 small pies at a rate of heavy 4, or 8 shots for a pair of thudd guns the same price as a TFC. They are really nasty when 4 of them get a prescience, but 2 of them with no TL is just 8 small pies that are wildly inaccurate. That's my baseline, and why I'm so meh about the TFC.

Thudd guns are generally considered completely broken and are one of the main arguments used to prevent FW from being allowed in tournaments. If you think TFCs are bad compared to Thudd guns... well, duh?

Most of those arguments were made when thudd guns were direct fire and took an elites slot. The nerf to barrage for thudd guns is still relatively recent.

I don't think we're playing the same game.

If thudd guns were direct fire before 6th, wound allocation was by the owning player so the melta gunner/missile launcher was always the last man standing.


The changes to wound allocation in 6th in conjunction to barrage rules made multiple barrages extremely effective. There's a 30 page thread in the tournament discussion forum where thudd guns are the most demonized FW unit in the current meta. Current discussions by current competitive players who all have issues with current thudd guns. Now space marines get a similar version but with bolster defenses and a str6 blast.

You can call that a nerf and we'll have to agree to disagree. I follow a lot of forums and read dozens of blogs and the almost unanimous reaction is excited about the change to thunderfires. You're telling me all of these people are horribly mistaken?

FWIW I use VWSB shadow weavers with similar stats and am already drafting up an allied detachment to add a TFC, I play 75% of my games on a yearly basis in tournaments. I assure you I wouldn't pursue adding an allied contingent to feature a unit that "just got nerfed".

VSB weavers are far superior because they have more wounds and a farseerfar seer can guide/prescience 2units per turn


How has VSB been working for you when they do not have prescience or guide .

Quark wrote:
The Wave Serpent is one of the most expensive transports in the entire game. There is such a thing as being overpowered without being undercosted.

Think of it as one of the sturdiest and most powerful main battle tanks with an additional transport capacity that takes up no FOC slots.

Quite underpriced when you think of it like that instead of just a "transport".

jamin484 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

TehCheator wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

Notice how you start by saying that you *can* shoot your 30 grots into terminators, but you don't because that's not what they are for. Then follow up by saying that Grav Bikers are horrible because they don't demolish Orks, when that clearly isn't what *they* are for. Grav Bikes are very good against a whole lot of different units, because you have the Grav Gun and the TL Bolter. Granted they aren't amazing against Vehicles, nor against Orks, but they still provide more than nothing, and you don't bring them to deal with hordes, you bring them to deal with MCs and Elite Infantry.

But thats the point. In a tournament if you stock up on grav weapons, it only takes one horde list and your no longer playing on the top tables. Had you stuck with plasma on those bikes your still able to damage MCs and Elite infantry and doing better at killing the hordes with 2+ to wound instead of 4+ and light vehicles, for those same shots.

I can see the value in one decked out grav weapon unit that is specifically designed to remove Riptides, Wraithknights, and some Nids. But to focus your whole army on killing those things alone really opens you up to a hard counter that you could run into. But that is a tournament, in pick up games the general feeling or the need to win impulse might be a little different.

And that goes back to my point. The grav weapon is a good weapon, but its not an autowin weapon because you have to give up something else just as valuable to take it. Its not like it was with Eldar Guardians who were just given rending layered on top of what was already there.

Bikes are really good at dealing with hoards mate, with T/L bolters and then combat. Hit and run, S5 HoW attacks, 4 attacks on the charge and FNP. Orcs need 6's to wound when charged. A white scar, grav gun toting, bike command squad is as versatile as you get IMO.

I'll second this. I have a lot of plasma guns in my White Scars currently, but against hoard armies I'll often use the bolters instead. The lower strength compared to the plasma gun is countered by the twin-linking and lack of risk to the firer.

 Jayden63 wrote:

TehCheator wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

Notice how you start by saying that you *can* shoot your 30 grots into terminators, but you don't because that's not what they are for. Then follow up by saying that Grav Bikers are horrible because they don't demolish Orks, when that clearly isn't what *they* are for. Grav Bikes are very good against a whole lot of different units, because you have the Grav Gun and the TL Bolter. Granted they aren't amazing against Vehicles, nor against Orks, but they still provide more than nothing, and you don't bring them to deal with hordes, you bring them to deal with MCs and Elite Infantry.

But thats the point. In a tournament if you stock up on grav weapons, it only takes one horde list and your no longer playing on the top tables. Had you stuck with plasma on those bikes your still able to damage MCs and Elite infantry and doing better at killing the hordes with 2+ to wound instead of 4+ and light vehicles, for those same shots.

I can see the value in one decked out grav weapon unit that is specifically designed to remove Riptides, Wraithknights, and some Nids. But to focus your whole army on killing those things alone really opens you up to a hard counter that you could run into. But that is a tournament, in pick up games the general feeling or the need to win impulse might be a little different.

And that goes back to my point. The grav weapon is a good weapon, but its not an autowin weapon because you have to give up something else just as valuable to take it. Its not like it was with Eldar Guardians who were just given rending layered on top of what was already there.

Don't you have to give up something whenever you take a special or heavy weapon though? Space marines trade their boltgun for heavy and special weapons losing the ability to use that weapon in exchange for being able to use another weapon thats better in some cases, and worse in others

Bike Squads don't do this because they still retain their TL Bolters in addition to whatever special weapon they have. The only question that remains is which special weapon do you take? so bike squads, in addition to have a decent and accurate basic weapon (boltguns) can specialise for a specific role, and in a TAC list the most tricky opponents are generally MC's because they sport (very) high toughness often combined with a good save. the grav gun has a good ROF, renders the high toughness of the target irrelevant, uses the armour against the enemy, and then ignores it and is generally very nasty against them. Grav guns also have some utility against vehicles, but on the whole, plasma is better in some cases, and so is melta, so how you equip bikes and other units with special weapons is down to personal preference.

I do have to agree though, that a variety of special weapons is the way to go, because against certain armies if you have nothing but grav guns, and grav cannons, you will come unstuck but bikes, given their great mobility imo are the best platform for grav guns because they can get to where their weapons do the most damage. white scare are the best for this, but bikes in general will do a good job as well

Still on the topic of grav guns, I'll be proxying some Devestator centurions with grav cannons because i'm not sold on them, and as an IF player i think the LC/ML variant is a lot better since they get tank hunters, and i'm not exactly sold on centurians as a whole becuse IF devestators get tank hunters, and Predator annihilators are now cheaper, and do the same job as devs of both types, although without the tank hunters

Just to throw it out there....

If you really miss combat tactics, take Calgar.

His "God of War" ability still gives you combat tactics. It also lets you auto-pass any test you want to as well, for those times your squad is on the edge of the board.

Lots of good info here guys!
I'm looking into starting Vanilla SM/40k again. My friends talked me back into it >_> Before I quit I played Vanilla SM as well. I was wondering (since I sold everything I owned) what would be good safe bets to buy and start building and painting up?

I don't want to buy a bunch of models that turn out to be not very competitive. (We play at tournaments locally and some pretty cut throat lists are brought) Like the mistake I made when I bought a bunch of Ogryns when I was starting an IG army *doh*

I'm looking to just start at 1500 for a while.
So far I'm liking Iron Hands and thinking about putting in a LR:C + Termies, about 4 squads of x5 Tacticals with Rhinos for each, MoF or Librarian, StormRaven and then I don't know what else...any thoughts/suggestions?

syypher wrote:
Lots of good info here guys!
I'm looking into starting Vanilla SM/40k again. My friends talked me back into it >_> Before I quit I played Vanilla SM as well. I was wondering (since I sold everything I owned) what would be good safe bets to buy and start building and painting up?

I don't want to buy a bunch of models that turn out to be not very competitive. (We play at tournaments locally and some pretty cut throat lists are brought) Like the mistake I made when I bought a bunch of Ogryns when I was starting an IG army *doh*

I'm looking to just start at 1500 for a while.
So far I'm liking Iron Hands and thinking about putting in a LR:C + Termies, about 4 squads of x5 Tacticals with Rhinos for each, MoF or Librarian, StormRaven and then I don't know what else...any thoughts/suggestions?

Well you know you will need Tactical Marines, so there is a start. An alternate to those, or to supplement them, Scouts are very cheap now, and can take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport.

Assault Terminators are largely overcosted anymore. TH/SS version went up in points, and if you play against Tau or Eldar, I'd hold off on getting those unless you really want them based on fluff/looks. They are still decent with a Land Raider, but if that Land Raider gets popped, they are as good as dead against the newer codex's.

Land Raiders receive polar opinions. Some say that they were nerfed due to hull points, while remaining extremely expensive. Others say they are still one helluva tough nut to crack, and are an important tool to transport kill teams. Personally, I still love 'em. In a 1500 point game, if you take a LR with Termies, there is roughly 1/3 of your points.

IMO, MoF is awesome, especially on a bike.

Librarians are still nice, point cost went down and can be taken for a pretty reasonable price. The only thing I don't like about them now is that I have no guaranteed Psychic powers AND they still can't take from the Divination table. Tigurious solves these problems, but is UM only.

Stormravens are very nice. Most people don't put troops in them, opting to make them a straight up gunboat. Points wise, they are expensive -- but they are tough and can really do some damage.

Welcome back! May The Emperor guide you!

Assault Terminators are largely overcosted anymore. TH/SS version went up in points, and if you play against Tau or Eldar, I'd hold off on getting those unless you really want them based on fluff/looks. They are still decent with a Land Raider, but if that Land Raider gets popped, they are as good as dead against the newer codex's.

I don't Get way everybody is hating on TH/SS Terminators nowadays. You used to see a squad in every army and now because they went up 5pts they are considered terrible and not worth taking. 200pts for 5 was a steal last dex now you pay 225 i think that is about right. Ya that is a good amount more but they are still one of the most survivable and smashy units in the game. You don't even need to have them all with TH/SS. Give two lightning claws to save your self 10points and get 8 attacks at initiative on the charge Of course Tau and Eldar can torrent them off the board but they can do that to any unit. The one thing the terminators have going for them against Tau is that they have invulnerable saves not cover saves so tau can't get rid of their 3++ so even if their LR get blown up they still have a good chance of surviving.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Hammernators are a must have in every army. I'm just trying to provide a counter point to a lot of people I see now saying they are not worth it because a squad is 25 points more. If you want some stuff stomped dead in assault they are your guys. No other unit in this book can do it as well as them... well... maybe Honor guard lol

Thanks Nick and King! Great input!

Tacticals - check
Librarian and MoF - check
Stormraven - check

I love those 3 units a lot and actually already own a Mof an Lib considering I wanted to run heavy armor like I did before, wouldn't a LR:C + Termies be a almost auto include? Or is a more refined Iron Hands list based around other armored vehicles like Dreadnoughts and AV13 Preds/Vindis?


P.S. Are Rhinos worth it for my 5 man tact squads?

 KingCronan wrote:

Assault Terminators are largely overcosted anymore. TH/SS version went up in points, and if you play against Tau or Eldar, I'd hold off on getting those unless you really want them based on fluff/looks. They are still decent with a Land Raider, but if that Land Raider gets popped, they are as good as dead against the newer codex's.

I don't Get way everybody is hating on TH/SS Terminators nowadays. You used to see a squad in every army and now because they went up 5pts they are considered terrible and not worth taking. 200pts for 5 was a steal last dex now you pay 225 i think that is about right. Ya that is a good amount more but they are still one of the most survivable and smashy units in the game. You don't even need to have them all with TH/SS. Give two lightning claws to save your self 10points and get 8 attacks at initiative on the charge Of course Tau and Eldar can torrent them off the board but they can do that to any unit. The one thing the terminators have going for them against Tau is that they have invulnerable saves not cover saves so tau can't get rid of their 3++ so even if their LR get blown up they still have a good chance of surviving.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Hammernators are a must have in every army. I'm just trying to provide a counter point to a lot of people I see now saying they are not worth it because a squad is 25 points more. If you want some stuff stomped dead in assault they are your guys. No other unit in this book can do it as well as them... well... maybe Honor guard lol

It wasn't that they ONLY went up in points, it's that they went up in points, when they really shouldn't have. 3++ means they are essentially a normal marine at that point at 3x the cost! Add in that assault is much worse in this edition and Tau with their combined overwatch/plasma spam and Eldar having AP2/Pseudo-Rending on just about everything, just makes Terminators highly inefficient IMO. 220 points for a mere 5 wounds on a 3++ save just doesn't cut it anymore. Losing just one or two in a unit essentially neuters them.

Don't get me wrong, I love terminators, and they can be very good at full strength in assault -- which is why that was mainly directed at the Tau/Eldar codex's. If you aren't worried about playing against them, then by all means, smash some face -- but Tau and Eldar are EXTREMELY popular right now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

syypher wrote:
Thanks Nick and King! Great input!

Tacticals - check
Librarian and MoF - check
Stormraven - check

I love those 3 units a lot and actually already own a Mof an Lib considering I wanted to run heavy armor like I did before, wouldn't a LR:C + Termies be a almost auto include? Or is a more refined Iron Hands list based around other armored vehicles like Dreadnoughts and AV13 Preds/Vindis?


P.S. Are Rhinos worth it for my 5 man tact squads?

It's really up to you and what chapter tactics and playstyle you will be using. I personally use Drop Pods but that's because I play Salamanders. If I were any other chapter, I'd likely run Rhinos. That added layer of protection is essential IMO and are good for providing some cover and cutting off incoming foot traffic.

I'm with jamin, I use ravenwing command squad and they eat ork squads quite easily and are roughly comparable to the white grav command

 KingCronan wrote:
I don't Get way everybody is hating on TH/SS Terminators nowadays. You used to see a squad in every army and now because they went up 5pts they are considered terrible and not worth taking.

Except you didn't see them in every army, in fact hardly any competitive builds took them. The problem was they died too quickly despite supposed survivability, and while the same could be said for most other types of units in the current meta, Terminator were expensive. They needed to go down in points to see them taken, and yet they went up instead for some reason. If people only occasionally paid for them before, then why would they pay even more for them now? 3++ is worthless when it is weight of fire rather than AP2 that's killing your guys, and that's what the meta is all about now, though there is more than enough AP2 around to back that up as well.

Terminators died for my Templars in two ways. The weight of fire from Tau and Eldar is just too much for them, I almost always lose one or two just in overwatch :(

And since they went up in price, lost rage and furious charge...they will be staying in the box. I will be taking two stormtalons for the price I ran my TH/SS squad.

Quark wrote:
The Wave Serpent is one of the most expensive transports in the entire game. There is such a thing as being overpowered without being undercosted.

Your right the Wave Serpent is both over powered & under priced. It costs less than most main battle tanks, yet puts out more firepower at a longer range, and it has much or more transport capacity than most transports, yet is faster & far more durable than a landraider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The second paragraph of this blog post (http://imperatorguides.blogspot.com/2013/09/tactica-space-marines-initial-overview.html) sums up exactly how I feel about this codex:

"I will go on record though and point out that, from a strictly high-tier competitive point of view, Space Marines likely will still struggle with some of their previously most heinous counters; Eldar, Tau and the forces of Chaos - notably Daemons and Heldrakes - will still terrorize the Astartes to no end. The issue of elite troops that are removed en masse by cover and armour-ignoring weaponry with high strength has not been solved in any meaningful sense, and any kind of model that pays for extras will always have a tough time against the Eldar - who laugh at any armour save or Toughness value. Suffice it to say though, Space Marines are sure to introduce some nasty builds into the competitive environment, with White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamander builds in particular looking exceptionally dangerous. Who cares about Heldrakes when your entire army is in combat on turn two or one, and can Hit and Run out when it best suits them? How will armies strip massed hull points from vehicles that can simply grow them back, and that is before any repairs from handy Techmarines are thrown into the mix? And few, particularly those pesky Pathfinders, will want to see a dark green alpha strike consisting of master-crafted flamers and meltas popping out of orbital assault vehicles."

So while this is a fun codex, & great for those type of games, go into it knowing you will be at a disadvantage. I look at it like a handicap in golf. They did make SM very strong against other SM though!

Overall I was just very disappointed in what was billed as the biggest & best codex GW has ever done. They didn't really change much. No new characters, almost nothing new fluff wise. No great revelations about the 40k universe or updates to the existing background. I guess they want us to buy the supplements. None of the promised synergy other than a few unique characters(mostly Ultramarines in a codex that wasn't supposed to be focused on Ultramarines). Also very restirictive as far as weapons & wargear. The relics are crazy over priced IMO. You will occasionally see the storm shield, that's probably it. Now I'm just rambling so I will stop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and another from 3++ (this entire article is why I don't like this dex):

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/09/first-look-space-marines-codex/

This 1 is a better breakdown from a hardcore viewpoint IMO.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Your right the Wave Serpent is both over powered & under priced. It costs less than most main battle tanks, yet puts out more firepower at a longer range, and it has much or more transport capacity than most transports, yet is faster & far more durable than a landraider.

This kind of hyperbole has to stop. Are Wave Serpents good? Definitely. Are they zomg godlike? No.

Wave Serpents have to choose between firepower and defense. Their weapons are strong but not amazing. They are primarily good because they exploit a common weakness in many armies. It's become common to field armies without real long range anti-tank weapons, even in books that typically feature strong ranged attacks like the Tau. Wave Serpents can use their range and mobility to exploit that. If you bring a balanced list with good long range anti-tank, though-- especially AP1/2 weapons-- Wave Serpents become much weaker.

Wave serpents are over powered & under priced for the reasons.
* They provide good shooting capability.
* They are durable.
* They are fast. (combines well with good shooting ability)
* They are transports (keeping troops safe)
* They are tanks (can can tank shock)
* They can hit flyers reliably with TL shots.
* They have long range shots that are great against DPs or similar targets.

This is to correct some misconceptions that are put out onto the interwebs.
* Serpents have good damage output -- but not GREAT damage output
* They are not more durable than a land raider -- they are tough but not LR tough.
* 8 Wave Serpents does not mean auto-win. Go look at the NOVA results for proof of this.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Your right the Wave Serpent is both over powered & under priced. It costs less than most main battle tanks, yet puts out more firepower at a longer range, and it has much or more transport capacity than most transports, yet is faster & far more durable than a landraider.

This kind of hyperbole has to stop. Are Wave Serpents good? Definitely. Are they zomg godlike? No.

Wave Serpents have to choose between firepower and defense. Their weapons are strong but not amazing. They are primarily good because they exploit a common weakness in many armies. It's become common to field armies without real long range anti-tank weapons, even in books that typically feature strong ranged attacks like the Tau. Wave Serpents can use their range and mobility to exploit that. If you bring a balanced list with good long range anti-tank, though-- especially AP1/2 weapons-- Wave Serpents become much weaker.

And what is AP 1/2 going to do to a wave serpent?

Nothing.

The AP value of weapons are irrelevant when you are forced to stripping off hull points. Also, what long range, AP 1, anti-tank do Space Marines have?

Long range has nothing to do with it either -- There's nothing that stops Wave Serpents from being close as it is (well, barring Grav Weaponry now), since they really don't have to worry about being blown up. They can move freely around the board and have the movement to just come and kill the long ranged firepower.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
And what is AP 1/2 going to do to a wave serpent?

Nothing.

The AP value of weapons are irrelevant when you are forced to stripping off hull points. Also, what long range, AP 1, anti-tank do Space Marines have?

Long range has nothing to do with it either -- There's nothing that stops Wave Serpents from being close as it is (well, barring Grav Weaponry now), since they really don't have to worry about being blown up. They can move freely around the board and have the movement to just come and kill the long ranged firepower.

Your wrong. AP1/2 weaponry is very deadly against serpents. Most serpent players shoot their shields every turn. That's because with few exceptions its generally the right thing to do.

Serpents like to dance at 24" away. They do NOT like to be within range of anything that can assault them and kill them. 10 krak gernades will kill a serpent dead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Wave serpents are over powered & under priced for the reasons.
* They provide good shooting capability.
* They are durable.
* They are fast. (combines well with good shooting ability)
* They are transports (keeping troops safe)
* They are tanks (can can tank shock)
* They can hit flyers reliably with TL shots.
* They have long range shots that are great against DPs or similar targets.

This is to correct some misconceptions that are put out onto the interwebs.
* Serpents have good damage output -- but not GREAT damage output
* They are not more durable than a land raider -- they are tough but not LR tough.
* 8 Wave Serpents does not mean auto-win. Go look at the NOVA results for proof of this.

Agree on most points except when regarding toughness compared to a Land Raider. On paper, the LR is tough. However, side by side, the Wave Serpent is far more durable IMO (WHEN using Shields/Fields).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
And what is AP 1/2 going to do to a wave serpent?

Nothing.

The AP value of weapons are irrelevant when you are forced to stripping off hull points. Also, what long range, AP 1, anti-tank do Space Marines have?

Long range has nothing to do with it either -- There's nothing that stops Wave Serpents from being close as it is (well, barring Grav Weaponry now), since they really don't have to worry about being blown up. They can move freely around the board and have the movement to just come and kill the long ranged firepower.

Your wrong. AP1/2 weaponry is very deadly against serpents. Most serpent players shoot their shields every turn. That's because with few exceptions its generally the right thing to do.

Serpents like to dance at 24" away. They do NOT like to be within range of anything that can assault them and kill them. 10 krak gernades will kill a serpent dead.

Can't honestly say I've faced serpent spam where they fire their shields every turn, mainly because they want to protect them. The unit inside and other units on the table are where I get shot to death.

Close range was in regards to the comment about long range firepower -- 24" isn't long range, nor was I implying that Wave Serpents are OK to get close enough to be assaulted. My point was that they do not have to disseminate based on long or short range anti tank, their survivability and mobility are able to cope with whatever is shooting at them -- close,range, long range, AP1, 2, 3, etc.. can all be easily mitigated by a Wave Serpent player.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Agree on most points except when regarding toughness compared to a Land Raider. On paper, the LR is tough. However, side by side, the Wave Serpent is far more durable IMO.

I guess you have been on the receiving end of them I played 4 wave serpents in a seerStar army for about a month, and found them dying quite often. I've played land raiders in multiple lists and found they died often quite less -- of course remember land raiders are more expensive!

These are the tools that quickly killed my serpents.
- IG blobs with orders to force me to reroll cover saves
- Broadsides with tank hunter and ignore cover
- Riptides with ignore cover
- Hive tyrants with TL devourers.
- DP with lash on rear armor
- Assaults of any kind
- Other wave serpents
- Anti-armor shooting after I shot my serpent shield

What never killed any wave serpent
- Drop podding marines
- Stormraven flying in turn 2 w/MM
In these cases I knew what was coming, and I kept the shield up and my rear armor to the board edge. Once the threat was neutralized I would focus on the opponents army.
I know its odd, as those are big threats to land raiders. They are just weak to different targets. The thing is in today's meta your not seeing tons of metla weaponry.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Agree on most points except when regarding toughness compared to a Land Raider. On paper, the LR is tough. However, side by side, the Wave Serpent is far more durable IMO.

I guess you have been on the receiving end of them I played 4 wave serpents in a seerStar army for about a month, and found them dying quite often. I've played land raiders in multiple lists and found they died often quite less -- of course remember land raiders are more expensive!


What never killed any wave serpent
- Drop podding marines
- Stormraven flying in turn 2 w/MM
In these cases I knew what was coming, and I kept the shield up and my rear armor to the board edge. Once the threat was neutralized I would focus on the opponents army.
I know its odd, as those are big threats to land raiders. They are just weak to different targets. The thing is in today's meta your not seeing tons of metla weaponry.

And this is where I fall -- Opponent sees my drop pods loaded with Melta and leave shields up. Then, they neuter my army with D-Scythes and Suncannons....

So while I can see where other armies can do the job, I'm more talking about Space Marines directly. In the end, my argument is that the new AND old codex and Space Marines in General typically have a tool for every job -- but that's not the case. We are lacking a tool that can be used effectively against Serpents that mitigate all the other tools we would normally use against vehicles.

However -- depending on FAQ, that tool may have been presented in the form of Grav Weaponry -- if they indeed do not allow a cover, and can strip 3 hull points on two 6's, than I'll be happy (who wouldn't? ). I can see an Eldar player actually shooting his shield now since he knows I can get around it.

MEQ have a great tools to kill serpents, but the cost of that tool is flexability.

3 land raiders with marines inside are a big problem for serpents. This is especially true when they can combat squad out of the serpents and assault. That's a roughly 20" "No Fly Zone" for any serpent player. To make matters worse, there are 6 TL LCs shooting down the wraithknights. All that costs a 1170 points, leaving lots of points for the rest of the army.
Just use this army to box the serpents in the entire game.

Serpents hate krak grenades. 6 white scar tactical squads + 3 drop pods of allies/jump infantry is a big problem for a waver serpent players. The scout means the rhinos will be a threat by turn 2, and the drop pods mean the serpents can't just stay where they are. All those 3+ save bodies are a big problem for serpents. They have a hard time killing them all, and they will wreck serpents with krak.
Like the other build, your working to pin your opponent in and then assault him.

The problem is both of those builds suffer against other builds. Sure, 100+ MEQ bodies might cause serpents and Tau problems, but a FMC/screamerstar build just won't care all that much.

 labmouse42 wrote:
MEQ have a great tools to kill serpents, but the cost of that tool is flexability.

3 land raiders with marines inside are a big problem for serpents. This is especially true when they can combat squad out of the serpents and assault. That's a roughly 20" "No Fly Zone" for any serpent player. To make matters worse, there are 6 TL LCs shooting down the wraithknights. All that costs a 1170 points, leaving lots of points for the rest of the army.
Just use this army to box the serpents in the entire game.

Serpents hate krak grenades. 6 white scar tactical squads + 3 drop pods of allies/jump infantry is a big problem for a waver serpent players. The scout means the rhinos will be a threat by turn 2, and the drop pods mean the serpents can't just stay where they are. All those 3+ save bodies are a big problem for serpents. They have a hard time killing them all, and they will wreck serpents with krak.
Like the other build, your working to pin your opponent in and then assault him.

The problem is both of those builds suffer against other builds. Sure, 100+ MEQ bodies might cause serpents and Tau problems, but a FMC/screamerstar build just won't care all that much.

I suppose I should have worded things a bit more carefully -- I think we are on the same page to some extent.

Unfortunately though, to use the LR's to try and deliver Krak Grenades is 1. Cost Prohibitive and 2. You don't get to shoot the Wraithknights at full power because you are trying to move full speed. Even then, the next turn, the Serpents move further away, while the rest of the army take down your LRs.

Again, I was more hoping that we would get a tool that 1. Is ranged and 2. Is points efficient -- neither of which we have (until we see an FAQ on grav weapons).

Having to solely rely on Krak grenades isn't a good enough answer IMO.

Don't Eldar usually have Fire Dragons and lance weaponry?

 labmouse42 wrote:
Wave serpents are over powered & under priced for the reasons.
* They provide good shooting capability.
* They are durable.
* They are fast. (combines well with good shooting ability)
* They are transports (keeping troops safe)
* They are tanks (can can tank shock)
* They can hit flyers reliably with TL shots.
* They have long range shots that are great against DPs or similar targets.

This is to correct some misconceptions that are put out onto the interwebs.
* Serpents have good damage output -- but not GREAT damage output
* They are not more durable than a land raider -- they are tough but not LR tough.
* 8 Wave Serpents does not mean auto-win. Go look at the NOVA results for proof of this.

Right WS + riptide = auto win. Whatever man you wan to be right, be right, I don't care. Fact is a WS can sit out a 72", and still get anywhere it needs to be on the table to deliver it's scoring units in 2 turns. It can move & still fire effectively, it doesn't care about melta or armor bane or ap1/2, & whatever hits you do get on it will be saved 50% of the time. That means on average you will need to glance the thing 6 times to drop 1 of them. Not even mentioning it costs as much as a predator annihilator, which can't even move if it wants to be effective at all. Every turn a LR has to choose between moving a little & being meh at shooting, staying stationary & being just ok at shooting, or going all out & doing what a transport should do(then probably being 1 shotted by a melta). Every riptide I see has a melta as it aux, & d-weapons or fire dragon eat LRs for lunch np. There is no comparison, the WS best vehicle in the game hands down.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Your right the Wave Serpent is both over powered & under priced. It costs less than most main battle tanks, yet puts out more firepower at a longer range, and it has much or more transport capacity than most transports, yet is faster & far more durable than a landraider.

This kind of hyperbole has to stop. Are Wave Serpents good? Definitely. Are they zomg godlike? No.

Wave Serpents have to choose between firepower and defense. Their weapons are strong but not amazing. They are primarily good because they exploit a common weakness in many armies. It's become common to field armies without real long range anti-tank weapons, even in books that typically feature strong ranged attacks like the Tau. Wave Serpents can use their range and mobility to exploit that. If you bring a balanced list with good long range anti-tank, though-- especially AP1/2 weapons-- Wave Serpents become much weaker.

It will stop when GW prices things correctly.

Predator chassis tanks (I think including the Vindicator, but that is the least affected) need to be all fast. SM are meant to be a rapid attack force, so they would have assault tanks and nimble, light tanks like the Predator rather than something that has to sit and shoot.