Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello have been looking through a lot of the new lists that people are putting up and they are making captain and chapter masters with both the relics.

So reading the codex it states "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following"

So my question becomes can he replace two weapons for 2 relics.

If yes than good to be clear, but if no it will be good to point this out as a lot of people will want to run / are making lists with the above combination.

My current interpretation is that you get 1 or the other and not both.

delete

I'm not sure what Space Marine Codex you guys are reading but the one that we have here in the United States reads as such:

C:SM page 163 - A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists. It reads the same for a Chapter Master in Terminator armor and verbatim for a Captain.

No where does it read he may replace his weapon with a Chapter Relic. If I'm missing something do point me to the page please.

The armoury page where all the prices are listed, under the title for Chapter Relics.

Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

I'm fairly certain multiple relics can be taken by one dude. If you can't, this would be the only 6th ed codex that has this restriction. That seems unlikely.

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

I'm fairly certain multiple relics can be taken by one dude. If you can't, this would be the only 6th ed codex that has this restriction. That seems unlikely.

All the others are worded exactly the same way. So if a Space Marine can't, neither can anyone else. It all boils down to if "one weapon" means one weapon full stop, or if it's supposed to mean "for each weapon you swap".

I also read it as one-for-one, not limited-to-one.

Chrysis wrote:

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

I'm fairly certain multiple relics can be taken by one dude. If you can't, this would be the only 6th ed codex that has this restriction. That seems unlikely.

All the others are worded exactly the same way. So if a Space Marine can't, neither can anyone else. It all boils down to if "one weapon" means one weapon full stop, or if it's supposed to mean "for each weapon you swap".

Chaos Daemons doesn't list it this way. I don't have DA or Tau, but in Eldar and CSM it does read this way. Still my argument for multiple remains, and everyone has been doing it this way since the start of 6th codexes.

 Sothas wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

I'm fairly certain multiple relics can be taken by one dude. If you can't, this would be the only 6th ed codex that has this restriction. That seems unlikely.

All the others are worded exactly the same way. So if a Space Marine can't, neither can anyone else. It all boils down to if "one weapon" means one weapon full stop, or if it's supposed to mean "for each weapon you swap".

Chaos Daemons doesn't list it this way. I don't have DA or Tau, but in Eldar and CSM it does read this way. Still my argument for multiple remains, and everyone has been doing it this way since the start of 6th codexes.

Daemons doesn't, but Daemons are somewhat unique in their wargear selection methods. And Daemons are very definitely limited to one Hellforged Artefact per model. Tau are very definitely allowed more than one Signature System per model, but none of their Signature Systems are weapons.

I, too, would go for it being a one-for-one swap done as many times as you have weapons. If only because the whole thing falls apart when you include the items that don't actually swap for weapons.

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

So you've replaced 2 items with 2 relics. Is that what the rule allows?

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

No, you're misapplying the plural. That word must be plural because there are multiple lists (and you are not required to pick a single list).
That has literally nothing to do with a restriction on the list itself.

I'm fairly certain multiple relics can be taken by one dude. If you can't, this would be the only 6th ed codex that has this restriction. That seems unlikely.

Um. No? Pretty sure the other codexes are similarly restricted.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help.

C:SM pg. 159 "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

I read this as I replace a bolt pistol (one weapon) for one relic. Then I replace a chainsword (one weapon) for one more relic.

So you've replaced 2 items with 2 relics. Is that what the rule allows?

It doesn't disallow it. The rule is ambiguous and needs clarification.

To back this up:
C:SM page 163 "A Chapter Master in power armour or artificer armour may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chapter Relics lists."
I highlighted items because it is plural. Multiple items from all of these lists.

No, you're misapplying the plural. That word must be plural because there are multiple lists (and you are not required to pick a single list).
That has literally nothing to do with a restriction on the list itself.

It needs to allow it. The rule allows for a one for one swap.
If you do a 2 for 2 swap you have not followed the rule.

Pretty clear. Also, learn how to use quotes.

I dunno why the last quote is messed up, I've double checked it. It's in their correctly. Anyway...

The rule allows for a one to one swap, but it doesn't specify how many times you can make that one to one swap.

I can swap pistol for relic. That's a one to one swap. Then chainsword for a relic. That's also a one to one swap. In my opinion, it is worded the way it is because you can swap any weapon you have (all other weapon sections list specific weapon i.e. boltgun, ccw, ect.) with a relic.

 Sothas wrote:
I dunno why the last quote is messed up, I've double checked it. It's in their correctly. Anyway...

The rule allows for a one to one swap, but it doesn't specify how many times you can make that one to one swap.

I can swap pistol for relic. That's a one to one swap. Then chainsword for a relic. That's also a one to one swap. In my opinion, it is worded the way it is because you can swap any weapon you have (all other weapon sections list specific weapon i.e. boltgun, ccw, ect.) with a relic.

It does specify by saying you can swap one (singular) item for another. It doesn't say any number for a like number, it says one.
This is important.

Honor Guard - how many banners can you have in one squad?
Command Squad - how many banners? How many apothecaries?
How many heavy weapons can you have in a 10 man tac squad?

Went over the eldar codex, has the same wording as one of these replaces one weapon.

Than went into the farseer entry and says can take items from remnants of glory.

Therefore they allow you to take multiple or they would say one.

So it gets a little more complicated.

They wouldn't say items if they intended that you couldn't take more than one.

The only way its only one weapon is if your allowed to take 1 weapon swap and any of the remnants that don't swap weapons.

Which is plausible but does add weight to the take as many as you can swap weapons for argument.

It says items because certain relics (and I use the term in general) do not require a weapon swap.

For example, A Farseer, can swap his pistol for the fire sword (trade 1 for 1), and then take the spirit stones and mask of the laughing god (which can be taken without swapping a weapon).

It's not exactly the same, but the other wargear lists themselves (Ranged, Melee etc) are worded differently allowing you to perform multiple swaps depending on your kit.
If it was supposed to allow you to take multiple Relics, it would've been much easier to word it thus:

"A model may swap any of his weapons for one of the following items each."

Chaos artefacts say the same thing one for one. You need permission to be taking 3 different relics for 3 different weapons.
One child may take one piece of fruit =/= every child gets one piece of fruit.

I don't have the codex in my hands atm, but the RAW makes it sound like no one is allowed to take the armor relic, unless you swap your weapon for it an carry around a spare suit.

Obviously that is not meant to be the case, so something is not quite right there.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I don't have the codex in my hands atm, but the RAW makes it sound like no one is allowed to take the armor relic, unless you swap your weapon for it an carry around a spare suit.

Obviously that is not meant to be the case, so something is not quite right there.

The Armour has a note attached saying that it doesn't actually need a weapon swap.

I, for one, see it both ways. I'd like GW to FAQ this one way or the other. HIWPI is just one for one, but I'd rather get it right than get it my way.

It says you can replace one weapon with one Relic.
Seems pretty clear: Only one upgrade.

I think you people are reading too much into the rules here. Picking options when list building is done sequentially. This allows you to take one option then take another option that was only possible after the first has been taken.

When selecting a captain, you pick your options one at a time.
1. Select Artificer Armor.
2. Take an item from the available lists. Go to Relics rules. It says you may exchange one weapon for a relic. You exchange bolt pistol for Burning Blade.
2 Take another Item from the available lists. Go to Relics rules. It still says you may exchange one weapon for a relic. You exchange chainsword for the Shield Eternal.

If the One weapon for One relic blurb was in the actual unit entry I would be inclined to agree with only 1 relic per HQ thing. As things stand currently, I lean the other way.

If the rule said 'a SM may swap any weapon for a Relic' then you could take the Burning Blade and the Shield Eternal, or whatever they're called (that's a scary combo).

But it says you may swap ONE weapon, not any, not all, not both, just one. Similarly, a Chaos Lord cannot have an Axe of Blind Fury AND a Burning Brand of Skalathrax, can he? Cuz if he can, please let me know, that would be pretty awesome!

But a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch could indeed have a Black Mace and Scrolls of Magnus, because the Scrolls specifically has a rule saying it doesn't replace a weapon. Do any of the SM relics have a little note like that?

 Thaylen wrote:

When selecting a captain, you pick your options one at a time.
1. Select Artificer Armor.
2. Take an item from the available lists. Go to Relics rules. It says you may exchange one weapon for a relic. You exchange bolt pistol for Burning Blade.
2 Take another Item from the available lists. Go to Relics rules. It still says you may exchange one weapon for a relic. You exchange chainsword for the Shield Eternal.

This is pretty convincing, I think, so long as you add the 4th step.

4. Go back to Relic rules. It says you may "replace one weapon with one of the following." But you've exchanged TWO weapons with TWO of the following. That's against the rule. Problem solved.

 Sothas wrote:
I dunno why the last quote is messed up, I've double checked it. It's in their correctly. Anyway...

The rule allows for a one to one swap, but it doesn't specify how many times you can make that one to one swap.

I can swap pistol for relic. That's a one to one swap. Then chainsword for a relic. That's also a one to one swap. In my opinion, it is worded the way it is because you can swap any weapon you have (all other weapon sections list specific weapon i.e. boltgun, ccw, ect.) with a relic.

Using this interpretation I can take a power weapon, a power fist, and a heavy weapon in each of my crusader squads. p. 168 "One initiate may take one of the following:" One takes a power fist, one takes a power weapon, and one takes a lascannon.

I don't think that is the correct interpretation...

Wargear section says you can only take one, so...

i guess i am missing where all the cunfusion is coming from. It may also be that i am applying common sense which may or may not be what the authors intended.

To me it sounds like I can trade my 2 chapter master weapons for 2 other hand held items from the relics list and then the chapter master or captain or whatever can also take the armor of indomitus(or whatever the artificer armor with relentless is called) because its not a weapon but he would be trading his armor for it.

If the points are paid I really couldnt care less how many relics are taken. i would get kind of concerned for the individual as a person if they were like buying extra wargear from the ranged or mellee weapons and then trading that for more relics it would not really effect the game as much as it would make me sad for them.

How do DA players do it? Theirs is worded the same way....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldsmug wrote:
i guess i am missing where all the cunfusion is coming from. It may also be that i am applying common sense which may or may not be what the authors intended.

To me it sounds like I can trade my 2 chapter master weapons for 2 other hand held items from the relics list and then the chapter master or captain or whatever can also take the armor of indomitus(or whatever the artificer armor with relentless is called) because its not a weapon but he would be trading his armor for it.

If the points are paid I really couldnt care less how many relics are taken. i would get kind of concerned for the individual as a person if they were like buying extra wargear from the ranged or mellee weapons and then trading that for more relics it would not really effect the game as much as it would make me sad for them.

The armor has an exception allowing you to take it without replacing a weapon.

The confusion about the rest is because of the way it is written "one model may replace ONE weapon with ONE of the following"

It sounds like you can only ever replace ONE weapon. If you replace two weapons on the model, then you have replaced more than one correct?

rigeld2 wrote:
It needs to allow it. The rule allows for a one for one swap.
If you do a 2 for 2 swap you have not followed the rule.

Pretty clear. Also, learn how to use quotes.

I have to agree with rigel2d on this one,

it explicitly states one weapon for one relic,

going 2 for 2 needs a specific rule alowing it, because it is definetly not the same, and no where does it imply or explicitly state that the one for one is actually a ratio.

the quoted plural text for items, refers to multiple lists of wargear/relics/ect, and in no way over rides that "one" weapon may be swapped for "one" relic

no contention on this, that is RAW, and very much RAI from what I can gather from C:sm.

takes a special kind of reading to read "may replace one" as may replace all

as many ahve stated, when a rule says youcan swap one weapon for one _____

and you chose to swap two weapons for two _______'s, you are NOT following the rule.

otherwise I can equipt most of my troops with nothing but special/heavy weapons, as all those entries also state one model may replace ____ with ____,

you really think i can have have 10 special weapons in a 10 man guard squad so long as its a 1:1 ratio?