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Ok people. We've all had a few days to stew over the new Space Marine Codex. I'm not yet convinced that you can run a better pod list than Space Wolves, but I'd like to try. I'll present my ideas and I call on you to add your own. By the end of this thread, hopefully we'll have worked out the leanest, meanest pod list there can be.

Here goes:

I figure it's down to Salamanders, Crimson Fists and Iron Hands. I think, with any of them, your baseline is a 9 pod build at 1850-2000 (the tournament usual). The 9 pods would consist of 3 Sternguard squads, 3 Tactical squads and 3 Thunderfire Cannons.

You deploy the TFCs as your base of fire leaving their pods to drop empty. You alpha strike with all the Sternies and 2 of the tacs T1. Situation dependent, you can leave the last tac squad in normal reserves, still deep strike them in the pod, or simply deploy them normally. This mitigates the risk of typical drop pod lists; piecemeal arrival. You're either all, or almost all there on T1. With the amount of combi-weapons Sternguard can bring to bear, combined with the massed fire of bolters and TFCs, you should be able to devastate most armies such that they can't recover.

Now, to the advantages of each chapter.

Salamanders (No Vulkan)- All your flamers are already twin-linked and you're extra-resilient to flame. Plus, you get what is almost always going to be a twin-linked combi-weapon (grav, melta, whatever your flavor) on every character; including all those sergeants. The points you save from no-Vulkan can get you a sweet captain with a relic or two.

Salamanders (With Vulkan)- All that, plus twin-linked melta weapons; and an HQ with a S6 AP3 mastercrafted CCW with a 2+/3++.

Given the amount of combi-weapons and the likelihood that they will be mostly a mix of melta and flame weapons, I think Salamanders lead the discussion.

Crimson Fists (With Pedro)- This list is basically the same build as above, but the Sternguard double the number of scoring units in the army. Given that most tournaments are primarily objective based, this can't be understated. Now, the firepower of this army, regardless of chapter is so overwhelming that you should come close to tabling many average opponents and you should still be crippling strong opponents to the degree that your 30 marines should be enough scoring. HOWEVER, these are 'probably's' not 'definitely's' or we wouldn't be here. Lastly, you get a 4th wound on your warlord who gives a nice little 12" +1A buff to all those Sternguard who already have 2 attacks base.

Iron Hands- I threw these guys in because I think they're intriguing and I think we should consider all options within reason. Most tournaments, even ones with primarily objective based missions, like say the Nova Open (and regional events that use it's primer) still have Kill Points incorporated in some way...in every mission. AND, like at Nova, there may be a mission that has KP as the primary. Lose that one first round, and say goodbye to that Best General award. Iron Hands retain the firepower of the list, for the most part, and make up for it with armywide 6+ FNP and vehicle-wide IWND. That's a huge resilience boost. With all the drop pods in this list, you're going to be hurting on kill points against better armies, even if your alpha strike is successful. And what if you draw a low KP list like a flying circus or Draigo-wing? Iron Hands help mitigate that.

I'm still thinking Salamanders are the strongest contender to dethrone Space Wolves as the preeminent pod list.

I rest my case and await your thoughts.

I agree on Salamanders and actually reckon they'll do better than Space Wolves for it. It's all down to that alpha strike. Sternguard should be given heavy flamers and a couple of combi-flamers for anti-infantry, with the bolters firing either ignores cover or 2+ wound - Tactical squads should be given melta for armour. Just use those rerolls to take out as much as is possible, barring poor dice or *really* spread out enemy deployment you should have a great advantage from the start.

Thunderfires should be left to fire last to tackle anything left - if there's a dangerous unit set to counter-attack they can use Tremor to hopefully stop them from charging, and with Sternguard the flamers should help there too.

While Sternguard are more expensive than combi-armed Wolf Guard the latter don't get the heavy flamer, and the Tac squads should be just a little cheaper than Grey Hunters, so the points cost isn't an issue. If you've done enough damage on the drop then the risk of counter-attack that Space Wolves get to laugh at shouldn't really matter much anyway.

I've always felt that Salamanders do podded flamers and melta better and SW is the best for podding terminators and plasma.

Couple things. I keep seeing Salamanders and twin-linked combi-weapon. I thought the sergants got a free mastercraft upgrade. So not exactly twin-linked, especially for things like grav guns.

Second, I don't really see how any of this is better than Space Wolves. Wolf Guard beats Sternguard hands down. WGs are 23 points with a combi-weapon, not 23-ish base without them like Sternguard are. Also, WG could get a HF if that is really needed by bringing one WG in TDA.

Third. SW troops can bring TWO flamers or two melta or two plasma in each of their 'tac' squads. Isn't that better on the alpha strike than SM Tacs which can only take one?

That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Also, Wolf Guard don't score without Logan right? And he's expensive. Pedro is cheaper and makes SG score.

Let's get some lists up here. I'll start with a Salamanders build, and someone with a SW codex please post a rival wolves variant.

Vulkan

x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315
x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315
x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315

x10 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, multi-melta, pod- 205
x5 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
x5 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, pod, meltabombs- 130

Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135
Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135
Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135

Total: 2000

Right away once I got the list down I'm leaning more towards a Pedro-wing with scoring Sternguard. To squeeze in all the goodies; you really have to lose out on troops. A Crimson Fists version would be identical but instead of throwing the meltabombs on that one tac squad, you could fit in another combi-weapon on the SG.

How do the wolves look?

2000 points of space wolves coming down at ya.

Naja Stormcaller - Wg - SS/axe - WG hf/maul - wgx3 combie melta - pod

Rune Priest - Jaws/Storm - Terminator Armor - Wg - SS/axe - WG hf/maul - wgx3 combie melta - pod

Troops
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - pod

Then you could argue that the sallies list is a lot more flexible with Sternguards special ammo, 6 heavy flamers, and 18 small barrage templates a turn. Versus the SW list that virtually only good at killing mech or mc spam.

Hmmm Ultramarines, don't make it into the discussion? Use Tactical Doctrine first turn you're basically rerolling your entire first shooting phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry don't have 'dex in front of me and I can't remember: Do chapters other than Ultramarines benefit from combat squads now?

Yup, all space marines can combat squad. That's why it's important for the SG to stay 10-man. Lite in troops tho. I think the discussion becomes, what's more important: scoring SG or master crafted everything. It's a big difference in firepower but also more than doubles your scoring if you go the Pedro way.

At least from the wolf list posted, someone could
Post a different one, I still like the marines. A lot more firepower regardless of chapter.

 The Shrike wrote:
That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Mastercrafted melta weaponry isn't a big deal considering that Wolf Guard can take a crap ton of combi-meltas and still be cheaper than base price combi-weapon-less Sternguard.

Also, Wolf Guard don't score without Logan right? And he's expensive. Pedro is cheaper and makes SG score.

Why bother making them scoring? A Rune Priest is cheaper than Pedro and is extremely useful. I'd focusing on bringing more bodies onto the table, not spending a lot of points to make extra expensive marines troops.

Let's get some lists up here.

x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315

You don't need lists you need units. 8 Combi-weapon Wolf guard is 178 points. 35 for the pod. 213 points total. 10 Combi-weapon wolf guard? 265 points total.

x10 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, multi-melta, pod- 205

10 GH, two meltas pod, 190 points.

10 GH, two flamers, pod, 185 points.

How do the wolves look?

Better in every way, except (and this is a big except) they can't combat squad. Still they seem better overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saythings wrote:
Then you could argue that the sallies list is a lot more flexible with Sternguards special ammo, 6 heavy flamers, and 18 small barrage templates a turn. Versus the SW list that virtually only good at killing mech or mc spam.

You could argue that, sure, but we all know SW can take melta, flamers or plasma in their GH squads. We all know they can take any of those as combi-weapons in their much cheaper than Sternguard squads.

I still don't think it's enough to tip in favour of the Sternguard special ammo (which is, by the way, *WHY* they're more expensive than Sternguard - Ignores Cover/2+ wounding is a big deal over combis), but something that a lot of people are missing out that makes Grey Hunters better - the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

 Super Ready wrote:
the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

<---- Tears of joy. I guess that changed in 6th edition and I completely missed it.

Didn't see anyone mention it, but if you read the drop pod entry, it says you MUST embark them on the drop now.

It does not say that at all. It says drop pods and units embarked on them must enter play via deep strike rules. If you had to embark upon one as a unit taking it as a dedicated transport, the RAW would read something like: units Selecting a drop pod must embark upon it and enter play via deep strike.

I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

 Super Ready wrote:
I still don't think it's enough to tip in favour of the Sternguard special ammo (which is, by the way, *WHY* they're more expensive than Sternguard - Ignores Cover/2+ wounding is a big deal over combis), but something that a lot of people are missing out that makes Grey Hunters better - the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

DO WHAT?! Can you cite please?

And if it's true......oh how the tables will have changed

 Super Ready wrote:
- the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

When did this happen? An FAQ?

That's ridiculous. Page 62 of the Space Wolves Codex:

...
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

 Redbeard wrote:
That's ridiculous. Page 62 of the Space Wolves Codex:

...
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

Thank you thats what I thought....sheesh

Dammit I just creamed my pants for nothing.

Argh, I'm sorry everyone. I simply misremembered the Codex.

 Redbeard wrote:
I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

I absolutely agree. Even though the other two doctrines will see very little use in most lists, the fact that all your shooting for the alpha strike is going to hit (and that sternguard special ammo at least gets more bonus than IF CT gives) is very strong. I mean, if we're talking about alpha strikes, we might as well hit as hard as possible. This even means that a multi-melta in a tac squad can drop in and have some shot at hitting on that turn. Tigurius making sure that any second-wave pods come in on turn 2 is insane as well.

Obviously, an Ultramarine list would look very different from a Crimson Fist/Sallamnder list, though. Namely, UM's will want to go down to one (maybe two?) units of sternguard and instead focus more on tacticals. Tacs can't kill as much as sterns, but the twin-linking makes up some of the gap, and UMs will be far more numerous on the board, particularly with regards to being able to score (in non-Pedro lists, especially).

My main sticking point, though is how best to abuse Tigurius. Do I want him to stay in the back with the TFCs? Do I put him in a pod with a combat squad and try to go offensive with him? If so, should I have a level 1 libby in the back field to try to preserve Slay the Warlord?

**Edited to prevent any further off-topic nitpicking**

Another thing I thought when looking at pods was a 5-man assault marine squad, without jump packs, and 2 flamers.

95 points, including the flamers and pod, gets you a decent sweeper unit. Might be a decent place to stick Tiggy, instead of a tac combat squad.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

I absolutely agree. Even though the other two doctrines will see very little use in most lists, the fact that all your shooting for the alpha strike is going to hit (and that sternguard special ammo essentially get to be master crafted) is very strong[b] . I mean, if we're talking about alpha strikes, we might as well hit as hard as possible. This even means that a multi-melta in a tac squad can drop in and have some shot at hitting on that turn. Tigurius making sure that any second-wave pods come in on turn 2 is insane as well.

Obviously, an Ultramarine list would look very different from a Crimson Fist/Sallamnder list, though. Namely, UM's will want to go down to one (maybe two?) units of sternguard and instead focus more on tacticals. Tacs can't kill as much as sterns, but the twin-linking makes up some of the gap, and UMs will be far more numerous on the board, particularly with regards to being able to score (in non-Pedro lists, especially).

My main sticking point, though is how best to abuse Tigurius. Do I want him to stay in the back with the TFCs? Do I put him in a pod with a combat squad and try to go offensive with him? If so, should I have a level 1 libby in the back field to try to preserve Slay the Warlord?

The tactical doctrine allows tactical squads to reroll all failed rolls to hit in the shooting phase, and the rest of your army I believe only 1's. Gotta check though.

Is rerolling 1's not what mastercrafted does?

Nope - it's *one* reroll of a miss. Rulebook page 39.

Super Newb wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Mastercrafted melta weaponry isn't a big deal considering that Wolf Guard can take a crap ton of combi-meltas and still be cheaper than base price combi-weapon-less Sternguard.

To be honest, that's how it should be considering Wolf Guard don't get special ammo... although cheaper combi-weapons in general is also just a 5th/6th ed difference.

Taking Terminator Combi-weapon Wolf Guard is where it's at though.

I popped out this poddy list of Sallies a few minutes ago

HQ:

Vulkan He'stan - 190 points

Troops:

10x Man Tactical Squad - 205 pts
w/ MM, Meltagun, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

5x Man Tactical Squad - 125 pts
w/ MM, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

5x Man Tactical Squad - 125 pts
w/ MM, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

Elites:

9x Man Sternguard - 313 pts
3x Combi Flamer
4x Combi Melta
2x Heavy Flamer
Melta Bombs
Drop Pod

-Idk what combi weapons to use, maybe Gravs? Meltas? Plasmas? Flamers? They will drop down with He'stan

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Fast Attack:

Assault Squad - 105 pts
2x Flamer
Combi Flamer
Drop Pod

Heavy Support:

Stalker - 75 pts

I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry. It's the combi weapons, both flame and melta that are providing the real alpha strike pain. They do have effective scoring and Tighrius, but from a pure alpha strike perspective, they don't measure up.

The Tactical Doctrine lets the entire tac squad reroll misses, not just bolters, I believe.