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Okay, so I realize that Vanguard Vets were the red-headed stepchildren of the last codex, and I agree with that.

And, having a large collection of Ravenguard guys with jump packs on them, I was struggling over finding a way to make the new, cheaper assault marines work in an army. Especially when one of the biggest hazards to assault marines--heldrakes--are common and popular and effectively countered by stormtalons, which compete with assault marines for fast slots.

Then I noticed that Vanguard Vets are now elites, not fast attack, thus leaving my fast slots open for stormtalons (or more assault marines).

Then I noticed that jump packs for Vanguard Vets only cost a few points per model now. It is literally cheaper to put jump packs on a fullsize unit of Vanguards than it is to buy them a transport.

Then I noticed that Vanguard vets can take meltabombs, any number of models, for the same price that sterguard used to be able to take combi-weapons.

So for about the same as what it used to cost me for my assault marines in the previous codex, I can get a guy with 2 attacks base and 2 weapons, giving me Death Company levels in number of attacks (but cheaper than DC and without fearless/FNP obviously).

But of course str4 is a big liability when going against monstrous creatures, but for a few points more I can give each guy in the unit a 1-attack, Str8, AP1 unwieldy weapon to use against monstrous creatures. The total cost is about the same as what I used to pay for a unit of sternguard with combi-weapons, except they don't need a transport.

And 8-10 guys with meltabombs, of course, spells death for any non-flyer vehicle in the game.

And they benefit from the Ravenguard special jump pack rules (not the scouting, but the double-burn in movement and assault).

Keeping them cheap and just taking their base bp/ccw and not giving in to the temptation to festoon them with power weapons and grav pistols allows me to take 2-3 full sized units of these guys with jump packs and meltabombs for about the price of your average deathstar. They move 12" in the movement phase and still get the rerolls and Hammer of Wrath in the assault phase, which means most likely in assault against what they want in turn 2 if you deploy them on the table. They can handle hordes with weight of attacks, vehicles and MCs with meltabombs, can multi-assault without losing attacks.

This is what assault marines really should be like.

What's not to like? What am I missing?

Of course I'd want to build the list around them, with stuff like:
-A bike captain with 20+ bikes, counting as troops, spamming grav guns (meltabombs work against MCs, but grav guns work better, and vanguard vets will still struggle against 2+ armor infantry)
-Three thunderfire cannons for fire support and anti-horde
-A couple of stormtalons for anti-air, plus maybe a unit of regular assault marines for the flamers
-Maybe a unit of scouts to grab safe objectives, with a landspeeder storm if points allow

Everything super fast, but low model count. Nothing would be able to use the Ravenguard scouting rule, but who cares?

Vanguard excel at killing enemy infantry due to their millions of attacks. You can sprinkle a few melee weapons if you want and/or give them some pistols.

Personally I would only take 2 TFC simply because you will be losing targets for the vanguard.

I'm still not convinced they are worth taking over ASM unless you need the FA slots, which you do.

They cost 6 points more and all you get for that is one attack, higher leadership (I think), and access to melta bombs and better weapons, but you have to pay for those.

Worth it to be sure, but since I cannot afford the points or elite slots to kit out a bunch of Vanguard with melta bombs, I would rather take the cheaper ASM with 2 flamers and 1 melta bomb.

It's good to note the differences, though. Even taking one unit with melta bombs kitted would be an effective option to consider for enemy harassment/taking down enemy units. The main drawback is they are vulnerable for their points cost, so you really have to get them into assault to keep them save asap.

Interesting idea about loading up on melta bombs.
Three bombs should come out as two hits against most vehicles.

Like I say, the cost of 10 vanguard vets with jump packs is almost exactly as much as I used to pay for a unit of 10 ASM with a power fist sergeant in the previous codex. I used 3 of those units in a 2K point army.

Add 8+ meltabombs to the unit, and that's about what I used to pay for a unit of 10 sternguard with combi-meltas in a drop pod. I used one of those.

I never balked at the cost before the GK codex came out (and ruined power-armor assault units). I think sternguard are the overpriced veteran option now.

Heldrakes and GKs are the two things that vanguard vets would struggle against, though.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Like I say, the cost of 10 vanguard vets with jump packs is almost exactly as much as I used to pay for a unit of 10 ASM with a power fist sergeant in the previous codex. I used 3 of those units in a 2K point army.

Add 8+ meltabombs to the unit, and that's about what I used to pay for a unit of 10 sternguard with combi-meltas in a drop pod. I used one of those.

I never balked at the cost before the GK codex came out (and ruined power-armor assault units). I think sternguard are the overpriced veteran option now.

Heldrakes and GKs are the two things that vanguard vets would struggle against, though.

Yeah, there's not much you can do against Initiative 6 ap3 or strength 6 ap3 ignores cover except kill the unit first with something else. If you can ...

What about putting Vanguard in a Raider or Raven?
Save a few points on no jump packs.

Why not Blood Angels?

Blood angels don't get the Ravenguard chapter tactics for double jump pack.

I did kind of approach Vanguard Vets looking at them as like Death Company lite--same number of attacks and a lot of the same weapon options, but not fearless and no FNP.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Blood angels don't get the Ravenguard chapter tactics for double jump pack.

I did kind of approach Vanguard Vets looking at them as like Death Company lite--same number of attacks and a lot of the same weapon options, but not fearless and no FNP.

Lower WS and no Furious Charge, either. The VV's cheapness is the biggest factor here, though. I hope DC get these 3pt jump packs when they get updated, because the current cost just doesn't make a lick of sense..

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Blood angels don't get the Ravenguard chapter tactics for double jump pack.

I did kind of approach Vanguard Vets looking at them as like Death Company lite--same number of attacks and a lot of the same weapon options, but not fearless and no FNP.

What does the rest of your army look like? I think you may find that scoring Assault Marines may be better than double jump packing. Sanguinary priests make up the difference in most cases I would say by granting that Furious Charge and FNP. bubble. If alot of your army tends to be focusing on the assault marines, I think they would benefit from being Scoring. Blood Angels still get old Sternguard (cheap combi-weapons) and Vanguard Vets (Heroic Intervention) and descent of angels, which could be better than scout and stealth unless you are loading up on alot of the new Marine toys like Grav, Centurions and such.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I think sternguard are the overpriced veteran option now.

It's probably because we are examining the two veterans from a Raven Guard perspective. I'm pretty sure all the other chapters would rather take the Sternguard, since elite slots are very valuable.

Losing the old Heroic Intervention made Vanguard Veterans pretty bad imho - they lost their unique niche that would make you want to take them. Now they're basically just more expensive Assault Marines... and Assault Marines suck by-and-large.

 whitedragon wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Blood angels don't get the Ravenguard chapter tactics for double jump pack.

I did kind of approach Vanguard Vets looking at them as like Death Company lite--same number of attacks and a lot of the same weapon options, but not fearless and no FNP.

What does the rest of your army look like? I think you may find that scoring Assault Marines may be better than double jump packing. Sanguinary priests make up the difference in most cases I would say by granting that Furious Charge and FNP. bubble. If alot of your army tends to be focusing on the assault marines, I think they would benefit from being Scoring. Blood Angels still get old Sternguard (cheap combi-weapons) and Vanguard Vets (Heroic Intervention) and descent of angels, which could be better than scout and stealth unless you are loading up on alot of the new Marine toys like Grav, Centurions and such.

I'm looking at grav gun-spamming bikes for troops, maybe backed up by a few scout units in LSS, stormtalons and maybe a token ASM unit in fast, and all thunderfire cannons for heavies.

The plan is that against somebody who is going to sit back and shoot (Tau) I'm in their grill on turn 2 at the latest. Shoot the MCs with the grav guns, assault everything else with massed vanguards. Against somebody who is coming to me, I got a couple of turns of thinning them with TFC templates, then jump on the survivors.

I get basically no benefit from the scout Ravenguard chapter tactic, but I get max benefit from the jump pack chapter tactic.

I priced up my version of this army.

Verrrrry expensive and small. No room for the storm talons, and only 1 biker squad, if you take a couple scout squads to hold objectives. The VV units run 270 each, but those were 10 man.

VV still too expensive, ASM still too weak.

Of course I'd want to build the list around them, with stuff like:
-A bike captain with 20+ bikes, counting as troops, spamming grav guns (meltabombs work against MCs, but grav guns work better, and vanguard vets will still struggle against 2+ armor infantry)
-Three thunderfire cannons for fire support and anti-horde
-A couple of stormtalons for anti-air, plus maybe a unit of regular assault marines for the flamers
-Maybe a unit of scouts to grab safe objectives, with a landspeeder storm if points allow

Well, such an army build seems viable. But with Bikers and Vanguard Vets the army gets too expensive point-wise.