Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

MVBrandt wrote:
I think a NOVA specific bent is needless. Adepticon and NOVA both played 2.5 hours and 1850 points, and both recorded most games by a wide margin finishing on time.

I don't mean to pick on the Nova Open, but this is the only major event after Tau and Eldar were released to give us an example of how long games take to play these days.

We knew that 6th edition takes longer to play. That is why you increased the round times and dropped the points down to 1850, but it turned out to be a bigger problem than anyone thought.

2.5 hours I believe is plenty of time if cupled with a 15 min deployment/assignment time.

If this was the case would people find it easier or find the ability to play the game out? All 5 of my games finished naturally at NOVA so im finding it hard to get my hands around the fact that 2.5 hours isnt enough time. But I understand that some matchups will have a hard time due to sheer numbers etc..

Now NOVA didnt have the 15 min window would adding something like this help in this area or is this still not enough time?

SCP Yeeman wrote:
I haven't been to the bigger of the 40k GTs like Adepticon or NOVA, but dont most have long posts with table numbers on them? What if along with the table numbers, you had a round counter on them as well? I think this could alert the judges as to what round some games are on and maybe they can give some encouragement to pick up the pace.

You could have rounds 1 and 2 be colored red. This would be to show that the game is in its infant stage. If 30 mins are called, and a red card is still up, the judge should go over and see what the deal is. Rounds 3 and 4 could be yellow while rounds 5-7 could be green, meaning everything is good and the game is getting to the right number of turns.

It's a nice idea, and not too hard to implement, I think. It might even make it easier for roaming judges to know where to check in on at the event, and thus save work rather than creating more work for those putting on the event (most suggestions only create work).

Great suggestion

I would also agree that it is a great suggestion. +1

 Danny Internets wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
The past results do not matter because we were not playing 6th edition 3 to 4 years ago, and even then only until a couple of months ago we have the codexes released that take the longest to play (Demons, Tau, and Eldar).

The vast majority of the Daemon armies I saw at NOVA were flying circus lists with extremely low model counts. The predominant Tau configurations seemed to keep large portions of their army (namely, their Kroot) in reserve, which results in a very brief deployment phase and first game turn. And almost every single Eldar army at NOVA was fully or almost fully mechanized, making them one of the fastest armies to play in 40k.

I would argue that Daemons, Tau, and Eldar represent armies that take the shortest amount of time to play when using common competitive builds. Having played literally nothing but Daemons, Tau, and Eldar at NOVA (and using Tau myself, with only two games worth of experience before NOVA), this is consistent with my own experiences at NOVA. Had I not gone in cold with respect to my own army, the games probably would have been even shorter.

Why Demons, Tau, and Eldar take longer to play.

Demons

Demons have a lot of pre-game rolls. They have a lot of MC and Heralds so they generate a lot of rolls on the psychic power tables, and then they have to roll for all of their gifts.

In game they are casting all of these psychic powers every turn. 3-4 level 3 heralds or 4-5 MC=around 12 psychic powers a turn.

They also have the warp storm table and this takes time out of the game. They roll on the chart and then if they have fateweaver they need to decide if they want to take the result or not, then they re-roll it. Then most of the time you have to roll for every unit in their opponents army to see if they get hit with the effect or not, and then you have to resolve all of these hits.

Then in the course of the game Demons take longer to play. Most are Tzeentch based so they have a lot of saves that they re-roll.

Then their shooting takes longer. They do not have X amount of shots. They have to make a roll to see how many shots they have before they can even roll to hit. Then they have prescience so they re-roll all of their misses.

The same with screamer attacks since they do not have a set number of attacks, their flyover needs to roll a D3 for each screamer before they can resolve the damage.

Then you have items like the grimore and portalglyph that are additional rolls. Then with the portalglyph you have to dig around for models to add to the table.

So to illustrate an example of shooting at a FMC, most armies roll a lot of dice to hit a FMC, then they have some kind of re-roll, then they roll to damage, then the FMC re-rolls any roll of a “1”, then any unsaved wounds often gets a FNP save, then a grounding check, then if they fail that a they often have a re-roll, and then if that is failed then you have to resolve the strength 10 shot. All of this seems simple when you are dealing with only one model, but it all takes time.

Tau

Tau (unlike Eldar and Demons) have a fast pregame since they do not generate any psychic powers, or have any random rolls other than warlord traits.

They do have some elements that they have to do before the movement phase like Nova reactors and Puretide chips, but not too bad.

Where they take longer is in the shooting phase (a shocker I know).

They have to shoot their marker lights first and then resolving those takes a bit longer. Where their time gets wasted though is with the amount of shooting they have. Tau are cheaper and so they have high model count and a ton of shots. You have to count out all of these dice and then roll them. Either the Tau are making everything TL, or Eldar are often allied with them so they have to re-roll all of these shots. Then all of these hits need to be resolved. Think about the amount of firepower that Tau have and everything from Fire Warriors and Kroot down to Riptides heavy burst cannons and Broadsides with all of their missiles. That is a lot of counting dice and rolling.

Tau surprisingly, takes a lot longer to play than any other army in their opponents’ turn. The examples of this are that they have a lot of interceptor fire so they will be shooting a lot of shots after their opponents’ movement phase. Then to top it off 6th edition also added a new phase that takes Tau a lot of time and that is shooting of overwatch. Since you shoot most of the army whenever they get assaulted, this is like an additional shooting phase to the game.

The last thing is that they a lot of jump packs that have a random (and random takes longer) assault move.

Eldar

Eldar have to generate a lot of psychic powers pre-game.

Then every turn they have a long psychic power phase to cast all of those powers.

Where Eldar really bog down though is in the shooting phase. Almost every unit gets a run move before or after shooting (and not only does this take longer because you have to roll to see how far they run, but they are fleet and get to re-roll this) but then you have to move all of the models. It is almost like another movement phase.

Then almost every Eldar unit will either be TL, or have guide or prescience on them so they re-roll every miss.

Wave serpents take a while to shoot as well. To break it down you have to roll for the scatter laser first (which is TL so has a re-roll). Then you shot the serpent shield which does not have a fixed amount of shots either, so the number of shots needs to be generated for every model shooting, and then these need to be re-rolled from the TL from the scatter laser.

Then you have another Eldar movement phase when the jetbikes and warpsiders get to make an additional random move (more dice rolls).

Grey Knights require lots of rolls for psychic powers but I don't seem to remember anybody having ever claimed they slowed down the game in fifth edition.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Grey Knights require lots of rolls for psychic powers....

Ummm...no. They really don't.

I have a relatively light psychic daemon army: 1 level 4 caster (Fateweaver), 2 level 3s (a Herald & a CSM Sorcerer), and a level 1 (big block of Horrors). Each requires power generated at the start of the game (I have a pre-printed spreadsheet - just roll & circle the results; it's as fast as I can make it), which comes out to 12-14 rolls (I'll often skip the last roll on the Tz Herald & the Horrors); I also have 3 daemonic gifts to roll up (same spreadsheet). Each and every game turn, I'm usually casting 9 powers (3 of which require additional random rolls before getting to the "to hit" step). Several of the others create reroll situations.

A 5e GK army would cast...2 powers a turn? Maybe 4, if they were in assault?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Grey Knights require lots of rolls for psychic powers but I don't seem to remember anybody having ever claimed they slowed down the game in fifth edition.

Well, edition didn't require so many pre game rolls so that wasn't as much of a problem. But in 6th, I imagine any extra time grey knights take in psychic powers is more than mitigated by the army size, and how fast the rest of their turn becomes...

Exactly, grey knights in 5th ed were almost the epitome of a "low model count" army... of course they didn't take long to play!

I see no mention of many of the generic things that make 6e games take longer. Look, anytime you have to pick up, count, roll, evaluate, and reroll dice, you're adding time

Prescience...everyone is rerolling stuff;
Overwatch!!!;
A lot more LOS/Tank-Character stuff;
rolling charge distances;
more dangerous terrain tests;
a lot more psykers/powers in general!
mysterious this and that;
more attacks...eg vector strikes, hammer of wrath, etc
an increased emphasis on super-shooty units...more dice = more time!

I have no horse in the race, just random thoughts while skimming the thread. If I'm repeating something that's been said...sorry, I suck!

 Blackmoor wrote:


Demons
...

I play Daemons too. The pre-game rolls take about 2 minutes tops if you're prepared for them (you have copies of the charts printed that you can circle for each character, space on your army list to write the results, etc.). Saying that the psychic powers themselves take a lot of time to cast is silly because Daemons have essentially zero shooting beyond these powers, so it's a zero-sum comparison (even with Warp Storm results and random shots thrown in, it still less time than most other armies take to shoot).

Sure, things like Screamer flyover attacks and Vector Strikes take extra time, but this is similarly cancelled out by the extremely low model count (i.e., it takes less time to move 15 models and resolve a few vector strikes than it does to move 70+ models with no vector strikes). The rest of the examples amount to grasping at straws (re-rolling failed saves of 1 for Tzeentch units eats up a lot of time? Really? That's like saying Orks take a long time to play because of Boss Poles).

Tau
...

There are many ways to speed up dice rolling--getting bogged down with complicated units' shooting is generally a trap that only inexperienced players fall into. It's really not hard to color code dice and roll them in batches. With an appropriate amount of dice, these batches can even be counted out beforehand while your opponent is doing things. But, yes, obviously Tau are generating more dice in the Shooting Phase than most other armies; this is, of course, offset by the fact that they tend to have an extremely brief Assault Phase.

The comment about Interceptor slowing things down is somewhat of a misconception. The weapons fired using Interceptor cannot be fired in that owning player's subsequent Shooting Phase, so all that's really being done is shooting the weapon earlier--it still takes the same about the same amount of time. (One could argue that Interceptor actually speeds up the game by potentially eliminating units before they can do anything, such as killing a Flyer before it has the opportunity to shoot.)

Eldar
...

I faced four Eldar armies at NOVA and there was one psyker among them. An Eldar list with a Seer Council obviously takes a lot of record keeping, but I don't think anyone other than Matt DeFranza was playing one. Virtually everyone else was running Serpent spam with a cheap Autarch or a lone Farseer for Guide and Prescience. That mechanized armies are quick to play should be self-evident. This more than compensates for the assault moves made by supporting units (Jetbikes are typically turbo-boosting around the board anyway and not making assault moves).

DevianID wrote:
Rogue, to be fair your criticism is misguided. If your opponent is slow and playing horde, Mike said in your quote that you need to use judges and social apps to manage slow players, yet your first comment is how your helpless versus a slow player! Slow players will not finish games even when given 4 hours, just look at the etc. A judge can't intervene with a slow player if you don't say anything.

Your observation about being rushed is no fun is quite valid, but da boyz ALSO has a time limit, and you still need to play quickly to finish a game. As for cramming games in, the open had a max of 3 games a day. If anyone wanted more games than that, they had the option, both with organized games like trios and unorganized open gaming. The fact is you are the only one who makes your schedule, and furthermore nova is drop friendly so there is no pressure to even play a game if you are tired of playing already.

Like I put in the post above yours, 6th edition requires you to play faster than 5th, regardless of format. 30 extra minutes will not turn a game that ended on turn 3 with 2.5 hours to turn 7 in 3 hours. That player will not finish their games regardless of being in upstate New York, Chicago, or northern Virginia.

Devain, I missed your post earlier. Your post is well stated and I agree with most of it. As far as the Nova having 3 rounds in a day, i believe that to be a good thing. So why not allow more time for each round?

Also, having an extra 30 minutes I believe with dramatically increase the games that finish. It may not make it a 7 turn game from a 3 turn game. It could make it into a 5 turn game. Each turn can often take less time than the previous due to casualties.

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

Devain, I missed your post earlier. Your post is well stated and I agree with most of it. As far as the Nova having 3 rounds in a day, i believe that to be a good thing. So why not allow more time for each round?

Also, having an extra 30 minutes I believe with dramatically increase the games that finish. It may not make it a 7 turn game from a 3 turn game. It could make it into a 5 turn game. Each turn can often take less time than the previous due to casualties.

Playing 3 games in a day is true for the Nova Open, but the fact is that the tables themselves were being used by the Invitational in the morings and the Team Trios in the evening, so they were really used for 5 games in a day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Danny Internets wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:


Demons
...

I play Daemons too. The pre-game rolls take about 2 minutes tops if you're prepared for them (you have copies of the charts printed that you can circle for each character, space on your army list to write the results, etc.). Saying that the psychic powers themselves take a lot of time to cast is silly because Daemons have essentially zero shooting beyond these powers, so it's a zero-sum comparison (even with Warp Storm results and random shots thrown in, it still less time than most other armies take to shoot).

Sure, things like Screamer flyover attacks and Vector Strikes take extra time, but this is similarly cancelled out by the extremely low model count (i.e., it takes less time to move 15 models and resolve a few vector strikes than it does to move 70+ models with no vector strikes). The rest of the examples amount to grasping at straws (re-rolling failed saves of 1 for Tzeentch units eats up a lot of time? Really? That's like saying Orks take a long time to play because of Boss Poles).

Tau
...

There are many ways to speed up dice rolling--getting bogged down with complicated units' shooting is generally a trap that only inexperienced players fall into. It's really not hard to color code dice and roll them in batches. With an appropriate amount of dice, these batches can even be counted out beforehand while your opponent is doing things. But, yes, obviously Tau are generating more dice in the Shooting Phase than most other armies; this is, of course, offset by the fact that they tend to have an extremely brief Assault Phase.

The comment about Interceptor slowing things down is somewhat of a misconception. The weapons fired using Interceptor cannot be fired in that owning player's subsequent Shooting Phase, so all that's really being done is shooting the weapon earlier--it still takes the same about the same amount of time. (One could argue that Interceptor actually speeds up the game by potentially eliminating units before they can do anything, such as killing a Flyer before it has the opportunity to shoot.)

Eldar
...

I faced four Eldar armies at NOVA and there was one psyker among them. An Eldar list with a Seer Council obviously takes a lot of record keeping, but I don't think anyone other than Matt DeFranza was playing one. Virtually everyone else was running Serpent spam with a cheap Autarch or a lone Farseer for Guide and Prescience. That mechanized armies are quick to play should be self-evident. This more than compensates for the assault moves made by supporting units (Jetbikes are typically turbo-boosting around the board anyway and not making assault moves).

We had two very different experiences at the Nova Open.

 Danny Internets wrote:

I play Daemons too. The pre-game rolls take about 2 minutes tops if you're prepared for them (you have copies of the charts printed that you can circle for each character, space on your army list to write the results, etc.).

This part I agree with....

Saying that the psychic powers themselves take a lot of time to cast is silly because Daemons have essentially zero shooting beyond these powers, so it's a zero-sum comparison (even with Warp Storm results and random shots thrown in, it still less time than most other armies take to shoot).

This part I don't - specifically, if you're NOT playing FMC Daemons, then you aren't gaining any time in the Shooting phase (nearly every model in my army was either psychic shooting, or else Running, which is slower than the Movement phase).

Sure, things like Screamer flyover attacks and Vector Strikes take extra time, but this is similarly cancelled out by the extremely low model count (i.e., it takes less time to move 15 models and resolve a few vector strikes than it does to move 70+ models with no vector strikes). The rest of the examples amount to grasping at straws (re-rolling failed saves of 1 for Tzeentch units eats up a lot of time? Really? That's like saying Orks take a long time to play because of Boss Poles).

Scoff if you want, but rerolls DO take time - instead of just rolling & having pass/fail, you now have to sort into 3 buckets: pass, fail, & reroll, and then actually reroll. It adds 10-15 seconds whenever someone shoots a significant number of shots at a big block of Horrors; across a whole game, it's another couple of minutes. Again, not a problem you may have had with FMC daemons.

Tau
...

There are many ways to speed up dice rolling--getting bogged down with complicated units' shooting is generally a trap that only inexperienced players fall into. It's really not hard to color code dice and roll them in batches. With an appropriate amount of dice, these batches can even be counted out beforehand while your opponent is doing things. But, yes, obviously Tau are generating more dice in the Shooting Phase than most other armies; this is, of course, offset by the fact that they tend to have an extremely brief Assault Phase.

Great; convince all the Tau players to do that, please. Not a single one of my Tau opponents had pre-counted batches of dice. And their Assault Phases aren't that brief: all those suits like to jump around in their turn, and my Assault phase becomes a second Tau shooting phase.

It's entirely POSSIBLE to play out a complete game with large armies in the alloted time in 6e. But it requires that both players be using every fast-play trick possible, and they have to know their armies well. I don't think that is the common scenario in 6e.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

Devain, I missed your post earlier. Your post is well stated and I agree with most of it. As far as the Nova having 3 rounds in a day, i believe that to be a good thing. So why not allow more time for each round?

Also, having an extra 30 minutes I believe with dramatically increase the games that finish. It may not make it a 7 turn game from a 3 turn game. It could make it into a 5 turn game. Each turn can often take less time than the previous due to casualties.

Playing 3 games in a day is true for the Nova Open, but the fact is that the tables themselves were being used by the Invitational in the morings and the Team Trios in the evening, so they were really used for 5 games in a day.

Ah, that makes sense then. Also agree with Rogue_Engineer's post.

There's no way to define how long it will take to complete a game.

Doug Johnsons and Liz Foster, two of the best players I know, recently played a 1750 game with no time limit and they took 5 hours to come to a natural conclusion. That is obviously not possible in a tournament setting.

So much depends on the mission, the army being played, etc. The more intense the game, the more focus you put into it and the more thought. I know I play fastest when I know I am winning by a mile and I can be a little sloppy. Close games just take longer because they require more thought.

You have to choose an arbitrary time limit one way or the other.

For me, there's no point to a tournament without a winner. Going back to battle points is a potential solution, but then you change the game a great deal from the format it is and end up with smash face armies and incentivize players to utterly destroy their opponent.

I personally don't think that is a fun way to play.

The other issue is that players push for more points but then complain that they don't finish their games on time. You can't have both.

If we all agree to come together to play 40K at a tournament we all have to agree to play within the limits the TOs set up. If that means a time limit, then you have to learn to play within those limits and be mindful of that while playing.

We try to always base our decisions on things like points and time limits based on hard data, and we found that at 1750 with 2hr and 15min, the large majority of games were reported as coming a natural conclusion and I believe other TOs have based their decisions off of similar data.

 Reecius wrote:
The other issue is that players push for more points but then complain that they don't finish their games on time. You can't have both.

I agree with your post, Reece. Just want to address this point. I know it's hardly a scientific study, but I started this thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551869.page - to see how people are feeling about points values in 6ed.

It's only been running a day, but the poll in that thread and everyone who's commented in here seem to agree that most people would be happy to play at smaller points values.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
The other issue is that players push for more points but then complain that they don't finish their games on time. You can't have both.

I agree with your post, Reece. Just want to address this point. I know it's hardly a scientific study, but I started this thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551869.page - to see how people are feeling about points values in 6ed.

It's only been running a day, but the poll in that thread and everyone who's commented in here seem to agree that most people would be happy to play at smaller points values.

i agree, I am very surprised at that result as it is totally opposite of what I have experienced IRL opinions.

I would seriously like to see 1500pt larger event and see how it shakes the meta up and addresses speed issues.

I also would love to see what happens when people can't max a force org and don't rely on 9 of the exact same unit because the points can't support it.

I played GK in fifth edition. I remember rolling for lots of psychic powers. It never slowed any of my games. As far as model count look at daemon flying circus. I simply write on a piece of paper each game what each model gets. It doesn't really add a whole lot of extra time.

Reecius- 2 hours and 15 minutes for 1750 sounds like less than I would personally like (just opinion). 2 hours and 30 minutes for 1850 was being discussed as too little here; at least with no prep time.

I'd prefer longer rounds, lower points, or less side events cramming the schedule over that... any of them over that, and by a long shot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I played GK in fifth edition. I remember rolling for lots of psychic powers. It never slowed any of my games. As far as model count look at daemon flying circus. I simply write on a piece of paper each game what each model gets. It doesn't really add a whole lot of extra time.

Janthkin was referring to non-flying circus daemons as far as I can tell.

Longer time to play will help. It's not going to fix everything but it'll help.

 RiTides wrote:
Reecius- 2 hours and 15 minutes for 1750 sounds like less than I would personally like (just opinion). 2 hours and 30 minutes for 1850 was being discussed as too little here; at least with no prep time.

I'd prefer longer rounds, lower points, or less side events cramming the schedule over that... any of them over that, and by a long shot.

2:15 is still very tight at Frontline's events, but haven't been as big a problem (at least for me, and at least to date). Fewer people, fewer tables, and (usually) more space/table helps quite a bit in getting your pairing, getting to your table, and getting rolling.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Longer time to play will help. It's not going to fix everything but it'll help.

No matter how long your round time is, make sure ALL of it can be used.


I have seen what really works and it applies to all events regardless of format, point limit or round times.

Get the pairings up early, BEFORE the round. The efficiency of the Adepticon staff this year was the best I have ever seen, and I have been attending 40k events for 20 years.

Allow time for meeting your opponent and swapping lists as well as asking questions BEFORE the timed round.

Provide proper play space. This includes an area for the players to have their army ready to deploy, books and supplies easily at hand. NOVA started using sideboards, many events have spare folding tables set up for this. It makes a HUGE difference in getting that wasted time back into the round.

And for the players, practice with your army to be able to play quicker. ESPECIALLY IF YOU PLAY HORDE ARMIES!

If you are expecting time management tactics, provide staff to watch for slow playing and come up with a plan on how to deal with it. I have seen players start their slow play from the second they get their opponents list (taking 10+ minutes to go over every unit, open the book, talk how they play at home).

Provide proper breaks between rounds for food, bathroom, checking voicemail, etc.. A 10 minute bathroom break in the middle of a round usually can be avoided. The 3 minute break to buy your opponent a beer is usually a welcomed pause though !

A big reason why games are longer is the interaction between players in each phase of the game now. In 5th you pretty much took your saving throws during your opponents turn and that was it.

Now instead of taking a nap until it was your turn (j/k) players are taking look out sirs,deny the witches, over watches, defensive powers, going to grounds among others that compounded over a 5-6 round game make them longer. This doesnt include other things such as simple game setup.

Not much we can do other than give some more time, possibly lower points (1500 would be the only points level that i see making a difference over 1750-2000) and as gamers be more prepared players.

-ed

@ArbitorIan

Wow, that is really interesting data!

I would love to play 1500pts in tournaments, it honestly think that is the ideal points limit for a tournament. You can run 90-105 minute rounds and the day is SO MUCH shorter. Much more enjoyable but folks hate building lists at 1500pts.

Our exit poll from the BAO was essentially a perfect curve of votes for 1500, 1650, 1750, 1850, 2000. The narrow majority was to stick to 1750 so we did.

@RiTides

I agree, honestly. However, bare in mind that every 15 minutes we add to a game adds an hour to the day. When you are already there for 10-12 hours, that really does matter for a lot as when you hit that point of fatigue, every hour feels like 2-3.

@Janthkin

Yeah, it is cutting it close no doubt but when we plan logistics properly and people have room, it so far has been no issue. For anime expo for example, almost every game finished to a natural conclusion.

BAO had issues due to being overcrowded but that won't happen again.

 Reecius wrote:
@ArbitorIan

Wow, that is really interesting data!

I would love to play 1500pts in tournaments, it honestly think that is the ideal points limit for a tournament. You can run 90-105 minute rounds and the day is SO MUCH shorter. Much more enjoyable but folks hate building lists at 1500pts.

Our exit poll from the BAO was essentially a perfect curve of votes for 1500, 1650, 1750, 1850, 2000. The narrow majority was to stick to 1750 so we did.

Interesting - how long ago was BAO? Did it include those three new Codices?

I guess my preference would be to lower the points value but keep the time the same - so that more people can finish rounds, and have time to set up/roll powers etc - decreasing points AND decresing round time wouldn't actually solve the problem?

--

Could anyone figure out the points difference between their pre-6ed Codex army and their post-6ed Codex army? So, take your competitive OLD Tau/Eldar/Daemons/Marines 1850 list and calculate how many points that would be in the NEW 6ed codex. We all know that points values have gone down, which means more models in an 1850 army, which slows things down.

People like to play with all their toys, but they may get just as many toys in a 6ed 1650pt list as they used to get in a 5ed 1850pt list....

(I'd do this myself but I don't have any 1850 competitive lists from 5ed)

EDIT - Did it! Now you can too - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552271.page

The thing I keep coming back to in terms of time and points levels is simple.

15 minutes isn't going to make that big of a difference. My games that don't finish "naturally", such as my round 1 at AnimeExpo, still would have failed to finish if I had 15 more minutes. I was playing a very fast list.

HQ
GUO
Bloodthirster

Troops
2x Plaguebearers

Heavy
3x Nurgle Daemon Princes

Sure there are a lot of psychic powers but with only 25 models in the army how slow could I really have played? My round 1 had my turns lasting no more than 5-10 minutes each, we made it to turn 3. This means that I spent, maybe, 30 minutes on my own turns out of 2 hr 15 min.

The point is no matter how fast you play, or how much time you add to the round, you will still have games that will not come to a natural conclusion.

The idea of a red/yellow/green card per table would help there, though.

Red: Rounds 1-2
Yellow: Rounds 3-4
Green: Rounds 5+

A judge walking around could look for red cards with 45 minutes left and tell those players to hurry. Honestly, if "dice down" is acceptable to end a round, "dice down" to end a slow-playing turn should also be possible.

Players are resistant to chess timers but you can't have one person taking 1 hour 45 min out of a 2 hour 15 minute game. I think there are solutions: the card idea, chess timers, longer rounds, etc.

Another idea with chess timers- just have them count UP. Then you have a record of how much time a player has used. Combined with the card idea, a judge then inspecting a red card would not have to be subjective- he could call "dice down" on a player if they had used over 65 - 70% of the time and the game was still on turn 2-3 at the three quarter game time mark.

I think there are solutions and practicing timed play for 40k and making it part of the culture could be good, if applied correctly and not just copy pasting another game system's timing rules.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The thing I keep coming back to in terms of time and points levels is simple.

15 minutes isn't going to make that big of a difference. My games that don't finish "naturally", such as my round 1 at AnimeExpo, still would have failed to finish if I had 15 more minutes. I was playing a very fast list.

The goal isn't to turn a round 3 game into a naturally-concluding game; it's to turn a round 4 game into a round 5 game, or a round 5 game into a randomly-ending game. Hopefully, most games that don't end naturally fall into one of those latter scenarios, rather than the former.

If games are not reaching their natural conclusion, there are 3 things that can be done:

#1. Lower the point limit.
Pros: It seem that lower point games take less time to finish, but how low do you have to lower points before most games finish naturally?
Cons: In the past there has been a lot of pushback with this as points started to creep up to 2000 point games. These days with 6th edition codex’s lowering point limits you get more bang-for-your-buck, but people still want to play with all of their toys.

#2. Increase the time of the games.
Pros: Although this is not a cure-all, it will help some games finish on a dice-roll instead of one where both players know it would end on turn 5, or make a 4 turn game into a 5 turn game etc. Also people underestimate how time will help because of the way that 40k works. Most of the time is spent on turns 2-4 and turns 5+ normally play much faster.
Cons: There are only so many hours in the day, and if you increase the round times you might have to drop the numbers of games. In tournaments with a win-loss format this means that a single undefeated winner might not be possible.

#3. Stay the course and change nothing.
Pros: It is easy to do.
Cons: Games not finishing naturally.

Would that poll have been better?