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Paper boats, wooden planks and other assorted open topped delivery systems still work just fine, the old rhino rush doesn't however.

 juraigamer wrote:
Assault is no longer the way to win games by driving up in metal boxes, taking no skill whatsoever. Assault isn't harder now, it's fair.

Shooting was king in 5th too, so unsure why people lost so much to assault. When you look at it more closely assault is basically a very short range shooting attack, one in which the opponent gets to fire back at you and has a random chance of total failure (charge range). Under such circumstances there is little reason to use assault unless the unit you're using is very very fast (IE beasts/cav) and resilient (IE grimoire).

Paper boats, wooden planks and other assorted open topped delivery systems still work just fine, the old rhino rush doesn't however.

I feel this hate for assault is from a game that is a decade old (3rd edition).. rhino rush + assault hasn't been viable since then and certainly not in 4th! Yes, you could do it in 5th, but you still were using slow units to do it and you couldn't assault after getting out of a moving transport. It wasn't a great way to win games.

You ever see the new space wolf book kirasu? All the metal boxes.

 juraigamer wrote:
You ever see the new space wolf book kirasu? All the metal boxes.

Except the main use of rhinos and razorbacks for space wolves in 5th was to get into close for their under priced meltaguns/plasmaguns. In fact, Space wolves rarely needed to assault, since with counter attack all a wolf player needed to do was double tap his opponent and dare the other guy to assault him.

 juraigamer wrote:
You ever see the new space wolf book kirasu? All the metal boxes.

That wasn't even the best use either, it was the Razorback spam that was king there.

Play against a good Daemons list and tell me assault is dead. The top three is Eldar, Tau and Daemons right now, and all the top Daemons builds use assault in some capacity.

FMC Spam comes in three varieties, Slaanesh (the strongest, imo), Nurgle and Tzeentch (all come with Fateweaver, obviously), and all three have an assault element (Nurgle is at least 90% assault).

Dogpile is almost ALL assault, Seeker/Fiend rush is almost all assault, and Screamerstar is a mix of shooting and assault (roughly half and half, depending on powers make up).

A Daemons list has two concerns against Eldar, one is Serpeant shooting, obviously. The other is counter assault from WKs. STR10 assault instagibs Princes who aren't Iron Armed up, and T8/fearless stops Dogs in their tracks. (Seeker/Fiend lists laugh at WKs, of course).

A Daemons list has two primary concerns against Tau. Mass STR5 (and to a lesser extent STR7) shooting, and Riptide counter assault. STR10 assault instagibs Princes who aren't Iron Armed up, and T6 2+ is annoying for Dogs (although they can usually kill Riptides in multi assault)

But isn't demons the army with the least amount of shooting in the entire game. Tzeentch demons have some through witch-fire powers but other than that 4 of their 5 troop choices have zero ranged attacks.

If demons couldn't pull off assault then they would be traveling up the creek without a paddle.

I've seen demons tabled on several an occasion. With predominantly only a 5++, they get taken down by volume of fire just like any other horde army.

 Ailaros wrote:
I've seen demons tabled on several an occasion. With predominantly only a 5++, they get taken down by volume of fire just like any other horde army.

Not saying Daemons are going to win every game, but a good Daemons list is top tier and relies heavily (and sometimes primarily) on assault.

Volume of Fire is an issue of course, but Daemons are less vulnerable to it for a variety of reasons. 1) they can boost the lead unit's save up to a 3++ or 2++ Plus easy access to Endurance and Invisibility adds an additional save.

2) Speed. Daemon assault units can cross the table in one turn. They have to eat a lot less shooting than other assault units.

Yes, A unit that's going to get ignored right away gets a good save. The rest doesn't.

And once you make it into assault, you're getting to assault bubble wrap or attempt to blow up a few cheap transports. Your opponent gets two or three turns (aka half the game) to volume of fire your demons away before they have a chance to engage anything of value in close combat. Those demons are looking at having the ragged remnants facing a nearly unhurt army in mid-game.

I personally haven't ever seen this end in anything but complete disaster for the demon player. It's really a question of if they get tabled or not, rather than if they win or lose.

You can do better with basically only taking monstrous creatures, but as the meta has already shifted to handling those first and foremost, I wouldn't hold out THAT much hope.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, A unit that's going to get ignored right away gets a good save. The rest doesn't.

And once you make it into assault, you're getting to assault bubble wrap or attempt to blow up a few cheap transports. Your opponent gets two or three turns (aka half the game) to volume of fire your demons away before they have a chance to engage anything of value in close combat. Those demons are looking at having the ragged remnants facing a nearly unhurt army in mid-game.

I personally haven't ever seen this end in anything but complete disaster for the demon player. It's really a question of if they get tabled or not, rather than if they win or lose.

You can do better with basically only taking monstrous creatures, but as the meta has already shifted to handling those first and foremost, I wouldn't hold out THAT much hope.

Well, all Daemons list include Fateweaver (which is a shame really, but they screwed that codex up, and he's an auto take). He is more than capable of shooting through your common Bubble Wrap units.

The untouched lead element (and I agree, a good player will generally ignore them) is generally something that can strip 4-5 transports in one turn, and can use icons to deep strike in support. The prevalance of psychic powers generally means multiple units will still be alive as well, and Hounds/Screamers/Seekers all have huge footprints, and can engage entire gunlines at once.

A good Daemons build can present nothing but hard targets, and overwhelm a gunline. I broke a Pulsebomb list at ATC with assault (and some Flickering Fire), and wrote about it here: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/08/16/guest-editorial-by-anonymou5-fateweaver-versus-the-world-or-a-way-to-fight-tau-a-tournament-vignette/

Daemon circus builds are probably still the strongest option (which is primarily what I run), but the horde rush lists do work. A Slaanesh build won the anime open (seekers, fiends and Daemonettes), Screamerstar just placed at that UK GT last week, Dogpile was top 4 at Wargamescon, etc. Daemon assault still works.

The lead element can kill 5 transports a turn? What kind of opponents are you playing against that let you do that?

And the fateweaver is good... because he can shoot stuff. Put another way, the best unit in the demon codex is a shooty unit.

... probably because 40k is a shooty game.

And it's not that hard to see why even on a gut check. Is it possible for an army to win a game without trying to get into close combat? Yes. Easily. All the time. Is it possible for an army to win a game with only trying to get into close combat? Not really. Maybe with some armies, but even then, you're still shooting.

Once it becomes just as easy to table your opponent by turn 4 with an assault army as it is with a gunline, then you'll know assault and shooting are balanced. As it is, it's not even close.

 Ailaros wrote:
The lead element can kill 5 transports a turn? What kind of opponents are you playing against that let you do that?

And the fateweaver is good... because he can shoot stuff. Put another way, the best unit in the demon codex is a shooty unit.

... probably because 40k is a shooty game.

And it's not that hard to see why even on a gut check. Is it possible for an army to win a game without trying to get into close combat? Yes. Easily. All the time. Is it possible for an army to win a game with only trying to get into close combat? Not really. Maybe with some armies, but even then, you're still shooting.

Once it becomes just as easy to table your opponent by turn 4 with an assault army as it is with a gunline, then you'll know assault and shooting are balanced. As it is, it's not even close.

I think we got our streams crossed on this. I am by no means disputing that 40k is a shooty game right now, and balanced in favor of shooting. My point is that it is not a shooting "only" game, which was the op's question. Daemons can win with primarily assault, but they still run some shooting, and they are literally the ONLY codex that can win with majority assault. So I don't disagree with your wide assestment at all. 6ED is a shooting game, but it is not "entirely" shooting.

5 Transports was probably a little generous, but only a little. 15-20 Hounds have a HUGE footprint, and you can easily box a gunline in with multiple Daemons assault squads, and strip a ton of transports down in one turn. Even against good opponents.

Fateweaver is good because of the reroll nonsense, he's great because of his buff/debuff potential, he's amazing because he adds on fantastic shooting. But honestly, even if he had no ranged attacks, he would STILL be worth 300 points to a Daemons Army. That's how stupid that codex is.

 juraigamer wrote:
Paper boats, wooden planks and other assorted open topped delivery systems still work just fine, the old rhino rush doesn't however.

You meant to say that Rhino are crap and should not be used, ever. Give us proper vehicles for transporting troops, such as WS or the croissants.

I don't want to swarm my enemies with umpteen rhino/razorbacks, but currently they are completely useless whether you take only one or 15. Compare that to WS spam lists...