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Excuse me, how are Screamers getting a 2++ in the first place? The Grimoire alone makes them a 3++ at best and you can only have one per army. In order to get to 2++, you'd have to get lucky and roll 10 on Warp Storm.

EDIT: rectified below.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/15 22:17:59


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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Valek wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
There are better ways then a Vindicare, if you want to work wth grey knights (Which work surprisingly well with Necrons) then you should go for a Storm Raven. 2 mind strike missiles onto the unit and boom, every single herald is dead with no saves. Mind strikes cause perils to any psyker under them, no saves, no nothing, just death! Admittedly once he sees what they do for the first time, you will be hard pressed to get a second shot in with there movement.


2 Mindstrikes is highly unlikely to end every Herald in the unit since they have to actually be touched by the template themselves, and the Daemon player would have to be very stupid to place them all close to each other knowing there is a Grey Knight Storm Raven coming his way. That's not to mention the change of scatter.


Huh, common man, seriously you only need to kill the grimoire guy then he will have at best a 4++ on the unit and you can kill like every other. Since you cannot lookout sir, one or two raven will kill it, in one or two turns, bar crap dice for scattering... precience for the win...


Maybe all of them is an over estimation, but it's not impossible if it catches them (The disks of Tzeentch is very big, easy to clip) twice then they are dead. Instead of nit picking over my choice of words, can you say that mind strike missiles are not a great choice to deal with this unit/deathstar?

What's your point? He said that two missiles will kill all of the Heralds in the unit. If you kill just the Grimoire guy have you killed all of the Heralds? There's no mention of multiple Ravens or multiple turns, just an claim that a single Raven in a single turn will kill 2-3 Heralds, which is unlikely. Your post in no way invalidates what I said.

 
   
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 Wilytank wrote:
Excuse me, how are Screamers getting a 2++ in the first place? The Grimoire alone makes them a 3++ at best and you can only have one per army. In order to get to 2++, you'd have to get lucky and roll 10 on Warp Storm.

You put forewarning on them to make the base a 4++ *then* Grimoire it.

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Okay I missed that.

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Limerick

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Maybe all of them is an over estimation, but it's not impossible if it catches them (The disks of Tzeentch is very big, easy to clip) twice then they are dead. Instead of nit picking over my choice of words, can you say that mind strike missiles are not a great choice to deal with this unit/deathstar?


I'm nitpicking over your choice of words precisely because I can't say that Mindstrikes aren't a good solution; I was just cautioning you because I thought you were over-estimating how good, and besides, you can only reasonably respond to what somebody actually posts, so you can't fault me for that. And it doesn't matter how big the Disks are. If the Daemon player has half a brain cell they know that the template has a 1.5" radius and so will keep those Disks at least 2" apart, if not more. It's a no-brainer. But as has been pointed out, killing the Grimoire Herald is enough so you don't need it to kill all of them, so it is a great solution, just don't ruin the opportunity by getting carried away trying to kill multiple Heralds at once, because unless the opponent makes a mistake it is not going to happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/15 22:57:49


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Thanks all for the advice!

I'm looking to do this purely from a CSM/Necrons PoV since those are the only armies I have enough models for in an 1850 tourney

I like the idea of a simple wraith unit tarpitting them while the rest of my army goes to work on the rest of his army.

I have found that killing fateweaver first is a great way to cripplethe army since he can no longer rely on his reroll for the grimoire.

I'm not sure what I can do otherwise since GK seem to be the only real way to effectively fight them besides getting an alpha strike or throwing a wraith+dlord tarpit at them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/16 01:45:34


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Well, even with four ML2 Heralds they have only a 77% chance of rolling Forewarning. 67% chance with three. 52% chance with only two.
With four ML3 Heralds they have only a 89% chance of Rolling Forewraning. 80% with three. 66% with two.

With Fateweaver they still fail 1/9(11%) chance of failing the Grimoire each turn.

You have a 50% chance of going first, take it and punish that unit.

This is how Screamerstar is balanced across multiple games. Actually if you figure it out even with four ML3 Heralds one out of every 5 games(21%) they will not have the Grimiore First turn, either from not rolling Forewarning or double failing the Grimiore.

In games where they have Forewarning focus on everything else, especially their scoring units. If its ruled Fateweaver must be present to use his reroll, kill him first then nail the unit when the Grimiore Fails. Otherwise focus on the rest of his army until Fateweaver has to arrive, then kill him and wait for the Grimiore to fail. And if/when the Grimoire is failed, punish that unit.

Whatever you do don't shoot or assault the unit unless you are simply tarpitting, which can be very effective for a couple of turns.

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The screamer star has a terrible Achille's heel that is an absolute auto lose in a tournament.

GK storm raven flyes onto the board, launches 2 mindstrike missles, deamons laugh at the puny s4 pies as they bounce off 2++ invos, and every Tzeentch herald on a disc takes 2 perils of the warp and dies.

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Limerick

 schadenfreude wrote:
The screamer star has a terrible Achille's heel that is an absolute auto lose in a tournament.

GK storm raven flyes onto the board, launches 2 mindstrike missles, deamons laugh at the puny s4 pies as they bounce off 2++ invos, and every Tzeentch herald on a disc takes 2 perils of the warp and dies.


Again, great counter, probably the best counter to the Screamstar, but where are people getting the idea that every Herald will die from just two missiles? Are all of yer Daemon opponents imbeciles that leave them bunched up despite knowing a GK Raven is coming for them? I'm genuinely curious about this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/16 11:27:08


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Yep the storm raven is the best counter to them, which is all well and good if you know you are facing just screamer councils but the OP said this was a toruny, if you want to tailor a list just to beat ONE army and take it to a tourny very best of luck with that.

While GK's arent bad as a TAC list they arent winning many tournies at the moment are they, and not every player owns them.

It is very hard to tarpit a screamer council,27 str4 ap- attacks and up to 12 str3 (sometimes str5 from lesser reward) attacks all re rolling to hit and you wont kill many if any in combat means you will always be losing combat, fearless tar pits are the only way to go but then bar a few units most of the fearless blobs are bad saves (nids in synpase orks in blobs etc) they will die out eventually. The best tarpit is a WraithKnight or 3++ Riptide.

Their shooting is also unreal, a lot of str6 shots re rolling to hit will take out most units unless they have a good deny the witch.

As for casting maledications on them, I would not rely on that, any decent council will have a few lesser rewards purely for spell breaker, that means a 3+ DTW against lvl 1 and lvl 2 and 4+ against lvl3 or greater, possibly re rolling the deny from fatey.

The best advice is to kill the rest of the army, Fateweavers re roll does work while he is in reserve, and with scriers gaze he will be in reserve for most turns, if not flying into BLOS then flying off the board again is the usual tactic, and again with the troops, scriers gaze to keep them off as long as possible, it is not always the best chance to kill the rest of the army.

As to going first, you have to win the roll to go first, opponent has to fail sieze the intative. No fight fighting (unless you are tau) and no BLOS on the board (crap toruny boards). You will also have to ignore what else your opponent has on the board.

It is not a unbeatable list and it struggles against MSU to be honest as the council can only shoot and charge one unit a turn, it loves to mutli assault but then the shooting risks wiping out the unit before it can do.

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All the advice about a gk stormraven doesn't really help me much since I'm purely a crons player who takes csm alies every so often, I somtime play nids but I have no problem with daemons with them (deathleaper the forewarning+doom+SitW is pretty painful on a screamerstar)

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Your only option appears to be to throw wraiths at it to tarpit it for a while, unless the RCDI are all characters, in which case try and precision shot the herald w/grimoire to death? (That should take an RCDI two rounds of shooting, right? And it'll do some other damage too)

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Isnt there a Dreadknight Psychic ability that can strip demons of their gifts. Maybe it would work against grimoire but im not 100% on that?

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Well all it takes is for them to fail one LOS in cc with the court and the grimoire holder will die since a scythe lord will double out a silly herald.

The court I run is kind of a mini court with trazyn you can check my army list topics if you want. I tried to snipe out the grimoire but my court died before they could even swing and due to horrendous rolls not a single one even got up to go for something less hopeless

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/16 13:51:01


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 Messy0 wrote:
Isnt there a Dreadknight Psychic ability that can strip demons of their gifts. Maybe it would work against grimoire but im not 100% on that?


I think that only nullifies the ability to cast the effect. Either way, the psychic power Dark Excommunication is unrealistic because you can only use it in assault which Screamers can easily avoid against a Dreadknight.

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Since the GK keep coming up as counters, I'll try to make a list of what they have that might be useful:

Dark Excommunication - nullifies a daemonic gift for that assault phase. You're still potentially going up against a 4++ re-rolling ones though. Dreadknight and Librarian can take this power.
Warp Rift - Flamer template, pass an initiative test or die. Not so great if your enemy is high initiative. Librarian can take this one.
Dreadnoughts - Reduces leadership by 4 if you try to cast a power at a unit within 12" of the dreadnought. Really knocks down successful psychic shooting attacks, however, he's just AV12.
Vindicare Assassin - Can snipe anyone at 36" range. You still have to get through the invulnerable save, but he does have a shot that does 2 wounds (still needs a 4+ to wound though).
Storm Raven - Armed with 4 missiles that use the small blast template and cause perils of the warp to any psyker they touch. You've only got 4 missiles and they scatter though.
Orbital Strike Relay - Can fire Psk-out bombs, same as the mindstrike missiles but large blast and always scatters a full 2D6. Can take these on Techmarines, Grand Masters, and Brother-Captains.
Brother-Captain Stern - In close combat, Zone of Banishment requires everyone including him within D6" to pass a strength test or be removed from play, Daemons re-roll successful tests.

There are a couple other random one shot weapons that cause perils or "remove from play", but the above are the main ones. The main tactic against the screamerstar seems to be sniping out the grimoire, or causing large amounts of woundson the heralds that bypass the re-rollable 2++. It's just too resilient with a 1/36 chance of a wound actually going through to torrent it down. In general, I'd say the main weapons against something like this are:

1) Barrage weapons (though with LOS you still have almost no chance of killing the grimoire)
2) "Remove from play" abilities or weapons (Jaws, etc). These are more rare, but probably the best bet to remove parts of it from the table.
3) Psychic nullification. If you can nullify psychic powers (Shadow in the Warp, etc) you can keep them from shooting you or casting forewarning. If you can cause perils, even better.

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I might have to try using monolith vacuums in my berlin wall list to clear our those t3 heralds

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Limerick

 Wilytank wrote:
 Messy0 wrote:
Isnt there a Dreadknight Psychic ability that can strip demons of their gifts. Maybe it would work against grimoire but im not 100% on that?


I think that only nullifies the ability to cast the effect. Either way, the psychic power Dark Excommunication is unrealistic because you can only use it in assault which Screamers can easily avoid against a Dreadknight.


Yup that's correct about how it works on the Grimoire. I wouldn't say the Screamers can get away from a Dreadknight all that easily though, but at the same time, I don't think they want to too much as with Prescience they should be able to tackle it handily enough I think.

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By the way fellas, read the rules regarding discs, str7 war scythe will not double out the heralds as on discs they are t4 so not as easy to prescision shot them thanks to that (not much str8 which can snipe)

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MarkyMark wrote:
By the way fellas, read the rules regarding discs, str7 war scythe will not double out the heralds as on discs they are t4 so not as easy to prescision shot them thanks to that (not much str8 which can snipe)


Well I guess I can finally bust out my anrakyr and finish him up for next time

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What was your list anyway bud?, that will help to tell you how to beat the screamers?

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MarkyMark wrote:
What was your list anyway bud?, that will help to tell you how to beat the screamers?


This

Tell us what your list was, and what you think you'd change up for next time, and we can all help a bit in deciding what might work to your advantage

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And the opponents list will help a bit, there are a few ways to run the screamers depending on taste and points value

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Whats the odds of the screamer star glancing the stormraven to death.
   
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mickthesplit wrote:
Whats the odds of the screamer star glancing the stormraven to death.


It depends on how many Flickering Fires it got.

But with 4 FFs, it will average 2 HP. AV12 Fliers are fairly safe from the Star. I broke down a lot of the math here:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/07/22/guest-tactica-the-screamerstar/

Keep in mind that article is old, and not really up to date on the "current" Screamerstar builds. That said, the general concept is the same. I'd say Mark is more of an expert on the unit than I am, and you've got him here to answer questions.

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Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)

My list was as follows (bear in mind I couldn't get all the models in time and kind of scrambled to patch the holes so it is less than optimized)

HQ
Trazyn
2 lords with shifter and scythe
2 lords with weave MSS and scythe
Lord with orb weave and scythe
Chronotek
Veiltek

TROOPS
5 warriors
NS

5 warriors
NS

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dday Ark
A.Barge
A.Barge

CSM allies

Daemon Prince
Nurgle
Lvl 3
Spell familiar
GoM
Black Mace
Wings
Armour

TROOPS
10 cultists
10 cultists
Flamer

Had I had all the models the list would have been much more optimized (swap nurgle psyker prince for tzeentch prince with mace and another A.barge, swap dday ark for a drake, etc)

His list was 4 lvl 3 heralds with fateweaver, 2 groups of horrors (can't remember how much they didn't have much of an impact all game) a portalglyph, a squad of maxed out screamers, a tzeentch prince, and a nurgle grimder with the torrent flamer (he originally had more screamers as backups in case the screamerstar lost a bunch of screamers to an alpha strike but he couldn't get the models in time either)

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Wow your troops are weak also, against a good screamer player you will struggle, the mace on the prince will hurt IF you get some wounds through but you will lose your prince in 2/3 assault phases, you have nothing fearless in your list either to tie them up. If you go first your range is quite limited for shooting while the screamers dont have their save up if you go second you can drop your warriors to score or contest but a good screamer player will contest with his heralds every objective he didnt/couldnt score.

I would quite possibly go second and go for the win on objectives, throw your tanks and ark forward and let them get killed by the council, if the council ignores then the tanks will be in a position to kill fatey or the troops, make sure you spilt your units up so you cannot get mutli charged!, turn 4 or 5 throw in your necron court or the prince to stop the heralds contesting then drop your warriors off turn 5 to score objectives, hope it ends turn 5

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06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
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09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
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