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'lo thar

I was just reading about how the codex basically says that no chapter should have much more that 1000 marines so that no-one takes control of enough marines to cause too much damage should they go rouge, with there being around and under 1000 chapters, making about 1,000,000 marines at any one time.. I agree with the principle of not letting anyone get too many marines but only 1000? I'm sorry but even though space marines are the shiz 1,000,000 marines to watch the galaxy? Do they actually know how big the galaxy is? Because here is how big; there is only one space marine for each three hundred thousand stars. Sure, there are imperial guard, but have the EVER actually fought off and invading force without first losing half the planet?

Anyways, I was wondering why they don't just have 1000 chapters of 10,000 or 100,000 space marines? That way sure, 100,000 might go rogue, but you have several million of them waiting to kill those traitors.

Food for thought, all replies welcome unless you're a racist or Eskimo.

Ok, fine Eskimos are all right, just don't stink up the place

Go to Lexicanum.com and look up in the 40k section... Horus Heresy.

That is why we can't have nice things.

Because Roboute Guilleman said so - his word is law!

Don't want too many turning heretic at once.

Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Most stars in the Galaxy have no planets, most planets are uninhabitable, and most inhabitable planets aren't even belong to Imperuim. It is near the billion of imperial worlds, with most of them being small mining/agri worlds with the population below the billion, and only few percents are those really worth fighting for. Even then, though, there is like one marine per ten major worlds.

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

I think I read somewhere that GW say they tone down Space Marines in-game to make it balanced. In real life, I think they're a lot more powerful. I say real life, you know what I mean.

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

It's mostly because Space Marines aren't supposed to work as an army, but rather as the tip of the spear, leading the attacks of lesser men and working as spec ops, quickly claiming objectives that would take days or weeks for guard. Those victories where single battle company conquer entire world should be read as: "single battle company with a few dozens of Imperial Guard regiments, few millions of PDF troops and imperial navy fleet support, which we don't mention, because Marines want to steal all the glory"

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
should they go rouge

Ah yes, marines in drag... very scary.

Does anyone know where the list of all the chapters is? I would like to see if my chapter name has been used officially.

If you want a pretty large list of most Chapters, try Lexicanum. You won't get all, but you should get most canon Chapters.

Heres a good chunk of the "1000 chapters", obviously the vast majority are fan made.

http://tauonline.org/?content=browse&army=SM&article=392

A space marine chapter can NEVER succeed on its own, they only form the ultra-elite spear tip. Most offensives involving marines will be backed up with many millions of IG or PDF soldiers, not to mention the very significant contributions of the Imperial navy (including the aeronutica), the ad mech and the titan legions (in some cases ministorium and inquisitorial forces as well). No imperial organisation is designed to work alone, when co-ordinated properly and efficiently (a rarity in M41) the imperial war machine is truly devastating.

Because sci fi writers are bad with numbers.

Chris_P wrote:Does anyone know where the list of all the chapters is? I would like to see if my chapter name has been used officially.

GW used about a few hundred names somewhere and yes sources like Lexi may show most of them. And the 1000 chapters project ( B&C ) should also provide some hints.
But I don't remember any 'official' list.

Mezmerro wrote:Most stars in the Galaxy have no planets, most planets are uninhabitable, and most inhabitable planets aren't even belong to Imperuim. It is near the billion of imperial worlds, with most of them being small mining/agri worlds with the population below the billion, and only few percents are those really worth fighting for. Even then, though, there is like one marine per ten major worlds.

Sorry, no. A million worlds is the commonly known size GW used, their usual stance : " a marine per world " .
3rd edition had a nice listing of the 1 million worlds.


Codex space marines 6th edition page 6 says: 10.000 marines form a Legion of first founding.....( not a quote )
were back to Legions of 10k again???? WTF GW. Can't keep the codices and HH products compatible

The Answer to 1k or 10k is:
- codex astartes split the Legions into smaller organizations
- geneseed is tested in a time consuming and thorough manner to prevent the corruption that ruined the Legions
- psychic tests to prevent unstable candidates like the arch traitors who corrupted their Legions ( see HH ) from entering SM ranks.
- duties changed a bit, re-conquering the Galaxy isn't as important as it was ( for now. )
- one click bundles of a chapter of 1200 marines cost 12.000$. Maybe charging 100.000$ didn't seem viable??

While it is the case that space marines on paper are *supposed* to be the 'speartip' in military operations, there's a few points to consider:

- In situations where they appropriately serve as the speartip, it could sometimes be considered quite a frail spear. Let's not forget that, while marines are basically walking tanks against the likes of cultists, secessionists, and traitor guardsmen, there are plenty of enemies the setting(Tyranids, Necrons, massed CSM) that would require quite a bit more than say 600 battle brothers for the 'tip' to be effectively driven through.
- The same applies to cases of where space marines are supposed to come in and 'save the day' or miraculously turn the tide of some battle. If millions of guardsmen and the tanks, artillery, and air support attached to their forces are on the verge of being routed, even a chapter deployed in full force might not be enough to really make a difference, given that generally conflicts across *planets* are the on the small end what goes down in the setting.

Separately, chapters would be absurdly inefficient in replacing losses(and there would be losses). While I think it's reasonable to assume an active recruiting process means there's at least a very small queue of individuals to serve as a pool of replacement forces, it takes perhaps decades for aspirants that actually survive the trials and genetic tampering to eventually enter a battle company. Then they're equipped with what are effectively really expensive relics, some of which they receive because dozens of guys before them died using it.

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

Puscifer wrote:
Go to Lexicanum.com and look up in the 40k section... Horus Heresy.

That is why we can't have nice things.

No that's because the chapters were so unbalanced, but instead of lowering the numbers from hundreds of thousands (or millions in some cases) to a set number set by the chapter with the smallest number of marines. I mean it certainly would fix the problems they have with entire chapters being killed (wtf Blood Angels?!) and losing chapter worlds to Tyranids. Actually they would find a way to screw that up so I'm gonna say that more marines would help them with the Ork problem. I can't think of a way for them to screw that up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

That isn't canon and they had IG and massive weapons on the planet.

Because the geneseed would be corrupted by overuse.

 1hadhq wrote:

Chris_P wrote:Does anyone know where the list of all the chapters is? I would like to see if my chapter name has been used officially.

The Answer to 1k or 10k is:
- codex astartes split the Legions into smaller organizations
- geneseed is tested in a time consuming and thorough manner to prevent the corruption that ruined the Legions
- psychic tests to prevent unstable candidates like the arch traitors who corrupted their Legions ( see HH ) from entering SM ranks.
- duties changed a bit, re-conquering the Galaxy isn't as important as it was ( for now. )
- one click bundles of a chapter of 1200 marines cost 12.000$. Maybe charging 100.000$ didn't seem viable??

The geneseed still gets screwed up (look at Blood Angels for 's sake!)
Putting reconquering the galaxy is actually (for the most part) for the better, as it gives Tyranids less resources and keeps the SM Chapters closer to the Imperium. Mostly.

 Vaerros wrote:
While it is the case that space marines on paper are *supposed* to be the 'speartip' in military operations, there's a few points to consider:

- In situations where they appropriately serve as the speartip, it could sometimes be considered quite a frail spear. Let's not forget that, while marines are basically walking tanks against the likes of cultists, secessionists, and traitor guardsmen, there are plenty of enemies the setting(Tyranids, Necrons, massed CSM) that would require quite a bit more than say 600 battle brothers for the 'tip' to be effectively driven through.

True, but more than a hundred marines are going to be deployed against said tougher enemies.

No, I know it isn't canon. Was just trying to demonstrate the overall 40K lore's depiction of a Space Marine's combat effectiveness...that it certainly doesn't match today's military formations.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

Yes, but to be fair that game is bolter-porn intended to make the player feel all manly

And unless you are ungodly good at the game you won't have made it far without healing by beating down enemies, something marines don't actually do

The henches are also immortal. You can shoot one in the head with a plasma cannon and all he'll do is stand there spouting imperial rhetoric..

That said, they did do a pretty good job of making the orks non-goofy and violent. If you actually had to face more than a squad at a time it would have been a bit more representative though Lets see Captain Titus fight off 180 orks plowing towards his position simultaneously, backed by some actual Ork vehicles (notably missing except the Minepig )...

 darthnatus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Go to Lexicanum.com and look up in the 40k section... Horus Heresy.

That is why we can't have nice things.

No that's because the chapters were so unbalanced, but instead of lowering the numbers from hundreds of thousands (or millions in some cases) to a set number set by the chapter with the smallest number of marines. I mean it certainly would fix the problems they have with entire chapters being killed (wtf Blood Angels?!) and losing chapter worlds to Tyranids. Actually they would find a way to screw that up so I'm gonna say that more marines would help them with the Ork problem. I can't think of a way for them to screw that up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

That isn't canon and they had IG and massive weapons on the planet.

40k canon is what ever you want to make of it.

So if you want, Fanfiction is as valid as core material so long as that's your interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

Yes, but to be fair that game is bolter-porn intended to make the player feel all manly

And unless you are ungodly good at the game you won't have made it far without healing by beating down enemies, something marines don't actually do

The henches are also immortal. You can shoot one in the head with a plasma cannon and all he'll do is stand there spouting imperial rhetoric..

That said, they did do a pretty good job of making the orks non-goofy and violent. If you actually had to face more than a squad at a time it would have been a bit more representative though Lets see Captain Titus fight off 180 orks plowing towards his position simultaneously, backed by some actual Ork vehicles (notably missing except the Minepig )...

Notably, Titus is manly enough to crush a Daemon prince's skull with his bare hands.

 Kain wrote:

 darthnatus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Go to Lexicanum.com and look up in the 40k section... Horus Heresy.

That is why we can't have nice things.

No that's because the chapters were so unbalanced, but instead of lowering the numbers from hundreds of thousands (or millions in some cases) to a set number set by the chapter with the smallest number of marines. I mean it certainly would fix the problems they have with entire chapters being killed (wtf Blood Angels?!) and losing chapter worlds to Tyranids. Actually they would find a way to screw that up so I'm gonna say that more marines would help them with the Ork problem. I can't think of a way for them to screw that up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

That isn't canon and they had IG and massive weapons on the planet.

40k canon is what ever you want to make of it.

So if you want, Fanfiction is as valid as core material so long as that's your interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

Yes, but to be fair that game is bolter-porn intended to make the player feel all manly

And unless you are ungodly good at the game you won't have made it far without healing by beating down enemies, something marines don't actually do

The henches are also immortal. You can shoot one in the head with a plasma cannon and all he'll do is stand there spouting imperial rhetoric..

That said, they did do a pretty good job of making the orks non-goofy and violent. If you actually had to face more than a squad at a time it would have been a bit more representative though Lets see Captain Titus fight off 180 orks plowing towards his position simultaneously, backed by some actual Ork vehicles (notably missing except the Minepig )...

Notably, Titus is manly enough to crush a Daemon prince's skull with his bare hands.

Notably, the newly ascended DP is utterly ineffective, and couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag

Gameterms-wise Marines are S4 even unarmed, DP's are T 5 - it's not impossible

 iproxtaco wrote:

 Vaerros wrote:
While it is the case that space marines on paper are *supposed* to be the 'speartip' in military operations, there's a few points to consider:

- In situations where they appropriately serve as the speartip, it could sometimes be considered quite a frail spear. Let's not forget that, while marines are basically walking tanks against the likes of cultists, secessionists, and traitor guardsmen, there are plenty of enemies the setting(Tyranids, Necrons, massed CSM) that would require quite a bit more than say 600 battle brothers for the 'tip' to be effectively driven through.

True, but more than a hundred marines are going to be deployed against said tougher enemies.

I gave a number of 600, which seems like a reasonable high-end commitment to make. Consider though that against Necrons and CSM they'll be facing enemies that have answers to their resiliency and deadliness of their weapons *and* are capable of quite significantly outnumbering them(in the case of the former, though I could CSM legions being deployed at impressive strength or supplemented by daemon allies). Their assault force would obviously be supported by IG or other Imperial allies, but I think they risk grievous losses or even extermination against enemies that simply won't break so easily or are too numerous for a surgical strike of that weight to mean anything.

GW can be very reluctant to change something that's been written. That there are 1,000 chapters of 1,000 marines is one of the oldest facts of the 40k universe, one of the few firm things stated about them in the 1st edition rulebook.


Personally I have no issue with the number. Its fine if you portray their use correctly - see the Battle for Armageddon boardgame for the best example.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
No, I know it isn't canon. Was just trying to demonstrate the overall 40K lore's depiction of a Space Marine's combat effectiveness...that it certainly doesn't match today's military formations.

Actually, it was mentioned that there were more Ultramarines on the ground. There's a scene where Titus contacts the other squads leaders and, at the end scene, you can see other Ultras as well.

In addition, he also had the Imperial Guard and a Blood Ravens to help him out as well.

"send a battle brother to take a town, send a squad to take a city, a chapter to take a world, send a legion to destroy a culture, there are of course exceptions to this general rule, the enigmatic eldar and the hordes of the ork"
Roboute guilliman, know no fear.

Yes a company can fight and win against a whole planet, you all seem to miss the obvious, when facing such overwhelming numbers you hit and run, they have even made a bit of fluff that describes how a single unsupported company took a world.
Paraphrased from memory
phase 1 orbital bombardment, targeting infrastructure such as power, water and waste plants.
Phase 2 orbital drop on orbital defence locations, disable, capture or.destroy.
Phase 3 target command echelons of enemy forces and ambush and capture/destroy, rinse ans repeat.
Phase 4 hit and run warfare, guerilla warfare, target ammo, food and water supplies, marines need these in lesser amounts
Phase 5, target large formations of enemies with orbital attacks that threaten to cut off allied forces
phase 6 as enemy uses smaller formations to avoid orbital attacks, use superior movement and skill to surround and destroy these formations.
Phase 6 repeat Phase 4/5/6
Phase 7 increasingly desperate enemy is both in need of food and water supplies and ammo resources are thin, leadership is either incapacitated or in no shape to fight, engage large scale assault on any remaining strongholds
Phase 8 enemy surrenders.

At no point in this assault are the space marines in a straight battle with there enemy,

 vodo40k wrote:


A space marine chapter can NEVER succeed on its own, they only form the ultra-elite spear tip. Most offensives involving marines will be backed up with many millions of IG or PDF soldiers, not to mention the very significant contributions of the Imperial navy (including the aeronutica), the ad mech and the titan legions (in some cases ministorium and inquisitorial forces as well). No imperial organisation is designed to work alone, when co-ordinated properly and efficiently (a rarity in M41) the imperial war machine is truly devastating.

The Deathwatch and the Grey Knights would beg to differ.

 Psienesis wrote:

 vodo40k wrote:


A space marine chapter can NEVER succeed on its own, they only form the ultra-elite spear tip. Most offensives involving marines will be backed up with many millions of IG or PDF soldiers, not to mention the very significant contributions of the Imperial navy (including the aeronutica), the ad mech and the titan legions (in some cases ministorium and inquisitorial forces as well). No imperial organisation is designed to work alone, when co-ordinated properly and efficiently (a rarity in M41) the imperial war machine is truly devastating.

The Deathwatch and the Grey Knights would beg to differ.

Not really no. One of the Grey Knights greatest victories for example was the 1st Armaggedon War, whence a Grey Knight company was all but wiped out banishing Angron. That action turned the tide of the war but it didn't end it, it still fell to the Armageddon PDF (aided by the Space Wolves) to purge the countless millions of cultists that had overrun half the planet..

blood lance wrote:Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

It is:

"The Space Marines are the Imperium's elite fighting troops, a core of highly mobile shock troops trained to fight on land and in space. On the battlefield they are expected to take part in the most dangerous and important attacks, to hold their positions no matter how hopeless their situation. Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."
- GW Inquisitor RPG : characters, adeptus astartes

"If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress, a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, so long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marines are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts. Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."
- 2E C:IG

It is as Mezmerro said - and I think another dakkanaut (was it Crimson?) once very fittingly described the Astartes as a "force multiplicator", being able to turn the tide of a battle by applying their capabilities (Space Marines are, after all, the most powerful concentration of "battle value" in a single soldier) to a strategic point in order to punch a hole into enemy defenses, kill an enemy commander, or delay enemy reinforcements, allowing the Imperial Guard or PDF to exploit the opportunity.

SerQuintus wrote:Personally I have no issue with the number. Its fine if you portray their use correctly - see the Battle for Armageddon boardgame for the best example.

Or Epic40k. I've never actually played it, but from all I've read it allows the Space Marines to balance their low numbers with several benefits to deployment, symbolising their ability to pick which fights to commit to, and where to attack.

The Shadow wrote:I think I read somewhere that GW say they tone down Space Marines in-game to make it balanced.

Citation needed. Both the remarks in the 6E rulebook as well as the statements of several GW designers and BL writers suggest it is actually the other way around - the fluff is distorted by legends, the myth, and the propaganda. Game rules would be the only "solid" thing we could possibly work with (though I'd caution against taking them "too literal" - they are still an abstraction, after all).

1hadhq wrote:were back to Legions of 10k again???? WTF GW. Can't keep the codices and HH products compatible

You really expected otherwise? It's different teams with different ideas. For better or worse, Black Library novels and Codex fluff sporting contradictory content is nothing new at all.