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Hello again Dakka,

I come to you with another question concerning something that has often been on my mind when developing a list. What would you define as a low model count army? I am currently tinkering away with making my home-brew C:SM chapter that will use the White Scars chapter tactics and have been wondering how many models is too few. I know one of the main weaknesses of a biker army is the low model count and the relatively large footprint bikers put on the board. As such I am trying to find the sweet spot that keeps my army not too low on models, but not too low on bikers either.

I am curious to hear any and all opinions of the denizens of these forums with the hope that I, perhaps we, can come to a conclusion when a low model count army starts becoming a "moderate" model count army. With enough discussion we all may be able to agree on a point at which an army transitions out of the "low" type.

TL;DR

Answer the following.

1. What defines a low model count army? How many?

2. At what point does a low model count army transition to a non-low model count army

3. (Just for curiosities sake) At what point does an army become a "horde".


Thanks for reading and responding!

-From

Edit: If this has been posted in the wrong forum and belongs in the General Discussion sub-forum please feel free to move it or request that I move it myself.

I don't think there is a set number. Of course it would also depend on point cost.

However, if you are running 11 models at 2000 pts (very easy with Nids) that would definitely be a low model count army.

On the flip side, if you have 267 models at 1500 (also very easy with Nids) you are most likely in Horde territory.

It's really a matter of perspective (and points value as well), there's no set number at which a low-model count army ceases to be so, or anything like that.

A player who has collected armies such as Paladin-heavy Grey Knights or Ogres, will probably think armies such as Eldar or Empire have a "high model count", whereas players who have collected Green Tide Orks or Skaven would consider these to have a "high model count".

 Happyjew wrote:
I don't think there is a set number. Of course it would also depend on point cost.

However, if you are running 11 models at 2000 pts (very easy with Nids) that would definitely be a low model count army.

Good point, Happy. Do you think it would be worth while to specify point values in the above post? Say we discuss the numbers for 1,500, 1750, 1850, 2000? Clearly 11 models at 2,000 is incredibly low, as would be 36 in my opinion, but I'm looking for some agreeable numbers. Say 50 at 1,750, etc, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:
It's really a matter of perspective (and points value as well), there's no set number at which a low-model count army ceases to be so, or anything like that.

A player who has collected armies such as Paladin-heavy Grey Knights or Ogres, will probably think armies such as Eldar or Empire have a "high model count", whereas players who have collected Green Tide Orks or Skaven would consider these to have a "high model count".

Absolutely perspective plays a huge role and this is very opinion based, but with enough opinions together we could come to some kind of understanding. A poster could give their take on what low model count is for them and stat the army they collect. Again should this be added to the primary post, maybe clumping similar armies together, IE power armor, guard, DE/Eldar/tau, orks/nids, etc. Every army has a very different play styles and amount of units they can field, but each can have a low model count army to some degree. Nids could go horde or MC spam, DA could go Greenwing or Deathwing, etc.

The only army I can think of that can get that low at 2000 points is grey knights because they can take 1 man troop choices.

I once did like 23 models with Tyranids at 1850

Flyrant
Flyrant
5 ygmarls
2 Hive guard
Tervigon
10 Gaunts
Trygon prime
Trygon prime
Trygon prime
Aegis wall with comm relay

GK can do

Draigo
Librarian
vindicaire
callidus
Eversor
Paladin apothecary
Paladin apothecary
Dreadknight w/teleporter and heavy incinerator
Dreadknight w/teleporter and heavy incinerator
Dreadknight w/teleporter and heavy incinerator

At the final round of Ard Boyz I rand a 22 Model GK army, so ~114ppm.

I consider a low model count army one that averages 50+ppm.

If it averages under 15ppm its a Horde IMO.

I almost always run low model count armies.

I'd say if you're over 35 - 40 points a model average you're definitely in low model count territory. My White Scars are definitely a low count army - using the old SM codex I averaged 41-42 PPM.

 Zagman wrote:
At the final round of Ard Boyz I rand a 22 Model GK army, so ~114ppm.

I consider a low model count army one that averages 50+ppm.

If it averages under 15ppm its a Horde IMO.

I almost always run low model count armies.

I almost always run horde armies... gaunts and gargoyles are my favorite things to bring. I used to bring a lot of genestealers also but I'm hesitant to in the current edition.

Of course, I really want to take MCs for tyranids but you have to counteract their high point cost with tons of cheap bodies.

My 240 points of gargoyles would have no problem taking out 240 points of Wraithguard. Strength in numbers.

What you put the army down on the table and someone says "that's a small army".

Low Model Count Orks

28 MN in 3 BW (plus 2 warbosses)

9 Kanz, 2 dredds, 2 Big Meks

High Model Count orks

When you fill the whole deployment zone and have as much again waiting to come on-table or when your opponent says 'you can get HOW many guys in 2000 pts again.....??!!! '

 Ascalam wrote:
When you fill the whole deployment zone and have as much again waiting to come on-table or when your opponent says 'you can get HOW many guys in 2000 pts again.....??!!! '

I don't think it would work well, but here would be my 2000 pt Ork army:

2x Big Mek
3x Kommandos (15 Boyz each)
6x Gretchin (30 Gretchin, 3 Runtherds each)
3x Stormboys (20 Boyz each)
Looted Wagon (Big Shoota)

End result - 2000 pts, 300+ models.

From wrote:
I come to you with another question concerning something that has often been on my mind when developing a list. What would you define as a low model count army? I am currently tinkering away with making my home-brew C:SM chapter that will use the White Scars chapter tactics and have been wondering how many models is too few. I know one of the main weaknesses of a biker army is the low model count and the relatively large footprint bikers put on the board. As such I am trying to find the sweet spot that keeps my army not too low on models, but not too low on bikers either.

For my Marines (Iron Hands, not White Scars), I start with 30 Tactical Marines at 1,000 points and scale up from there. Ultramarines have several builds that should use even more Troops (Sicarius/Calgar Tactical spam).

Bikers are more resilient than Tactical Marines in some respects, but less so in others-- they gain much less protection from Rhinos, for instance. If I were running a pure bike army, I would probably want to have at least 4 5+ man bike squads in 1,000 points (for 20 bikers), plus maybe a backfield objective camper unit like Scouts with sniper rifles or 5 Tactical Marines with a heavy weapon. I would then scale up from there-- ultimately I would definitely want 5-6 Troops choices in 1750+ points though. In 6th edition, having enough Troops is critical.

I would also probably want to run Ravenwing instead of White Scars, but that's a different story...

I occasionally run a 1500 point list with about 24 models (BA codex)

Fun stuff but templates are REALLY bad news when you have few models.

I'd say a low model count army is something which has roughly 15 models per 500 points. Or fewer, of course.

An army stops becoming a low model count army when you lose the ability for any model to support any other model. When proper displacement means that a model on one side of your big blob can't double-tap or assault something threatening the other side.

An army becomes a horde army when you take this to the extreme. So much, so, that you have to actually plan for it. You have to take duplicates of units because there's no possible way that parts of your army can support other parts of your army. In fact, most units can't support each other, so you need to have more of them spread around to accommodate this.

Also, proper hordes can start doing interesting things by simply saturating the field with bodies and taking the rather limited amount of space on a 40k table and using it to their advantage by being able to block off whole chunks of the board.

I enjoy both low and high count model armies and for me the cutoff point is about 25 (max) models for every 500 points spent on low count and 50(min) for every 500 points spent on high count.

Running the middle ground can be fun too (why I have eldar actually) but, a good indicator for the difference is when on low count every model you loose hurts you whereas high count you can loose a dozen guys and be un-phased.

For orks, I consider anything with less than 60 models a low model count army.
I hear MEQ players call 60 model count armies a "horde".

60 models a horde? That's only 2 Troop choices. At least wait until we add the other 4 Troops, the 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attacks and 3 Heavy Support. Then call it a horde.

PrinceRaven wrote:What you put the army down on the table and someone says "that's a small army".

I'm unsure if you missed a word there, but at no point have I put down this theoretical army.

Kingsley wrote:

From wrote:
I come to you with another question concerning something that has often been on my mind when developing a list. What would you define as a low model count army? I am currently tinkering away with making my home-brew C:SM chapter that will use the White Scars chapter tactics and have been wondering how many models is too few. I know one of the main weaknesses of a biker army is the low model count and the relatively large footprint bikers put on the board. As such I am trying to find the sweet spot that keeps my army not too low on models, but not too low on bikers either.

For my Marines (Iron Hands, not White Scars), I start with 30 Tactical Marines at 1,000 points and scale up from there. Ultramarines have several builds that should use even more Troops (Sicarius/Calgar Tactical spam).

Bikers are more resilient than Tactical Marines in some respects, but less so in others-- they gain much less protection from Rhinos, for instance. If I were running a pure bike army, I would probably want to have at least 4 5+ man bike squads in 1,000 points (for 20 bikers), plus maybe a backfield objective camper unit like Scouts with sniper rifles or 5 Tactical Marines with a heavy weapon. I would then scale up from there-- ultimately I would definitely want 5-6 Troops choices in 1750+ points though. In 6th edition, having enough Troops is critical.

I would also probably want to run Ravenwing instead of White Scars, but that's a different story...

This is quite useful information for me. Understanding how valuable troops are to some people as well as the starting point, 30 tactical marines in your case, and going as high as 5-6 troops in a full 1,750 point list. As it stands I am undecided on a chapter tactic, if I were to go all in on bikes I feel as though I would have too few and too liner troops. If I run into helldrakes for instance my bikers could all get roasted. I believe I will go for some sort of mix of bikers, tacs, a small scout squad, and perhaps some space wolf allies.

Elindiel wrote:I occasionally run a 1500 point list with about 24 models (BA codex)

Fun stuff but templates are REALLY bad news when you have few models.

Hmm, this is curious to me because I was under the impression less models would make you less susceptible to most templates. Generally your units will be stronger, more spread out, and harder to blast away with templates. Could you explain where you're coming from with that belief?

Ailaros wrote:I'd say a low model count army is something which has roughly 15 models per 500 points. Or fewer, of course.

An army stops becoming a low model count army when you lose the ability for any model to support any other model. When proper displacement means that a model on one side of your big blob can't double-tap or assault something threatening the other side.

An army becomes a horde army when you take this to the extreme. So much, so, that you have to actually plan for it. You have to take duplicates of units because there's no possible way that parts of your army can support other parts of your army. In fact, most units can't support each other, so you need to have more of them spread around to accommodate this.

Also, proper hordes can start doing interesting things by simply saturating the field with bodies and taking the rather limited amount of space on a 40k table and using it to their advantage by being able to block off whole chunks of the board.

Wow! Even if 15 models per 500 points is on the higher end that would imply the lists i was tinkering around with were very low model count armies. Out of curiosity why do you claim proper displacement is when some of the unit can't fire at full strength, wouldn't that put you at some disadvantage not being able to bring your full firepower to bare? Additionally, doubling up on units is something that I have seen many do, and I do myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but redundancy isn't something unique to larger model count armies.

I ran blood angels with nothing but 2 HQ and Sanguinary Guard. 2,000 comes in with 27 jump infantry IIRC. Rings in right around 74 points per model. Or, another way to look at it is 64 points per wound.

I didn't even lose every game...


-Matt

 Happyjew wrote:
60 models a horde? That's only 2 Troop choices. At least wait until we add the other 4 Troops, the 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attacks and 3 Heavy Support. Then call it a horde.

How do you get 60 MEQ with two troop choices? Only Death Company can do that, and that doesn't leave a whole lot of points for the other slots.

From wrote:This is quite useful information for me. Understanding how valuable troops are to some people as well as the starting point, 30 tactical marines in your case, and going as high as 5-6 troops in a full 1,750 point list.

I'll counter that tidbit of advice with this. 40k is about how much you kill how quickly. Troops are crummy at this, either because they just have bad killing power, or it takes too long to be able to apply it. Some troops are excellent defensive units (henchmen, rending shurikens, mechvets, etc.), but usually they just take up space and little else.

From wrote:Out of curiosity why do you claim proper displacement is when some of the unit can't fire at full strength, wouldn't that put you at some disadvantage not being able to bring your full firepower to bare?

Whatever disadvantages you have by not being able to fire a model on one turn are much less of a problem than the model being killed because it was too bunched up, and thus not being able to do anything for the entire rest of the game.

Plus, I've found that unless you're running truly huge squads, you're generally not running into this problem of not everyone getting to attack TOO much. It's more of a problem with foot hordes where you have so many models that entire units don't get to do anything for awhile.

my DE would be a low model count army by these standards !!! in 1000 points i only have 30 models!

 Ailaros wrote:

From wrote:This is quite useful information for me. Understanding how valuable troops are to some people as well as the starting point, 30 tactical marines in your case, and going as high as 5-6 troops in a full 1,750 point list.

I'll counter that tidbit of advice with this. 40k is about how much you kill how quickly. Troops are crummy at this, either because they just have bad killing power, or it takes too long to be able to apply it. Some troops are excellent defensive units (henchmen, rending shurikens, mechvets, etc.), but usually they just take up space and little else.

This is a common misconception. 40k is about how much you kill only one out of six games-- the rest of the time, it's about who has scoring units on the objectives when the dust settles. Generally speaking, a strong Troops presence is the way to go there.

Now, obviously you want to take Troops that are still effective at killing enemies-- but oftentimes bodies and board presence alone decide the game, and the best way to win at bodies and board presence is to have a strong base of Troops, as they are generally the cheapest models in the army as well as the only ones that can normally be relied upon to score objectives.