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So aside from coming up with some unique scenarios at my store, they are also imposing a handicap system. Everyone who enters puts their name and army (even specific faction imperial fists for space marines in my case) then another player draws your name from a hat, and puts an army restriction on you, no units whatsoever of what they picked allowed, cannot pick troops or HQ. And then they impose a unit you HAVE to take (aside from what you write down that you do not own) its not specific, like you cant say dreadnaught with 2 twin linked heavy bolters for example. If you pick dreadnaught, they can take whatever kind they want, contemptor, ironclad, venerable, regular ect. I had devastators restricted to me (BOOOO) and have to take terminators, im guessing because he thought they would be a point sink, and he saw I don't own any drop pods.

Anyway I am planning on running a min 5 man TH/SS group with Lysander deep striking hopeing to at least be a good distraction. I will have scouts so can at least use teleport homers. What do you recommend to support them, since im looking at 505 points of my 1500 tied up right there. I was thinking scouts, land speeder storms, an ironclad, thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, a 3 man bike squad with grav guns, and a bunch of tacs, maybe sternguard, or even add a stormtalon for some anti air.

P.S all 3 chaos players got their hellturkeys banned. I found that pretty amusing. At least I wont die to super flamers every round, so there is at least that silver lining.

Edit so people can see the results

First place: orks! 3 battlewagon list with some loota support. one unit had bunch of burnas with mek with kff, one had warboss, nob and some boyz, the other was also full o boyz. Mostly ran the 3 side by side when could, with a trukk on either side to absorb side shots.

2nd place, nids! was a doom list and the guy who restricted him chose venomthropes. Guess he really hated 5+ cover saves. I don't think his flyrant died all tourney.

3rd place, Tau! The codex really is probably the most choice rich one out. Even missing the dreaded riptides, he managed to 3 crisis team his way to a win, with a leader to protect his missilesides, and his pathfinders for markerlights. The tau player that I restricted pathfinders for came in I believe 6th. He had no skyrays, so only had some markers on his leaders drones.

4th place, imperial fists. Since devastators were denied to me, I switched to a heavy sternguard list. Ran pedro for my leader, and he rolled around in a redeemer with the terminators. I had fun, but the terminators never really earned their points back, even a game where I deep struck them behind enemy lines. He shot them to crap, I only lost one termie, but then I assaulted with them and lost 3 more to the whole 4 saves I had to make before they got to swing. Seeing 3 ones come up on a 45 point model assault really depresses you. The one game I did win (other 2 were tied) they actually never made it to combat, the tau just jumped away. But the threat of them hearded him toward my other stuff. Still probably wont take again until the next edition, assuming they are less terribad.

As for what the top 4 were required to take. Orks had to take flash gits (he said they came in handy a couple times with ap 3.) Nids had to take pyrovores ( he said he hadent taken them in 6th yet, and they were the surprise of the night, nobody expected much from them, but they actually cleared off 2 objectives for him) Tau had to take piranha (he only had 2, but he said he actually liked them, and was considering getting at least 3 more for a full squad, and that the free drones were pretty impressive for the base piranha cost.) And I had to take terminators.

The only other one I remember was the necron. He has a ton of necron stuff. And although he couldn't use the crossant of doom, and had to use the tomb guard things or whatever they were called, his annihilation barge spam might have won it all for him, but he had to leave after the 2nd game. Utterly tabled his other 2 opponents.

That is the dumbest restriction I have ever heard of and that can completely ruin armies. Seems like a terrible idea for a tournament.

So, basically don't play Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, DEldar, Sisters, Orks, or Daemons without someone completely nerfing your army to heck and back out of pure over-reacting spite? Sounds marvelous. It could be fun where each player has to take one of a certain unit, for fun, but you should NEVER limit what a player can bring.

Wow that's absolutely idiotic.

Edit: I did a stupid and didn't read part of the OP's post. My bad.

Still, I'd be pissed if I had to swap out Annihilation Barges for Lychguards or other wastes of points in a tourney.

 jifel wrote:
So, basically don't play Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, DEldar, Sisters, Orks, or Daemons without someone completely nerfing your army to heck and back out of pure over-reacting spite? Sounds marvelous. It could be fun where each player has to take one of a certain unit, for fun, but you should NEVER limit what a player can bring.

Don't forget IG. You can make the army unplayable with almost one swing.

Require them to run Rough Riders/ storm troopers/ deathstrike and eliminate Vendettas/ Leman Russes/ Artillery (based on what the player owns and likes running, of course). There, IG can't play.

FUN FUN FUN!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RivenSkull wrote:
Wow that's absolutely idiotic.

What happens when someone picks a model unit a person doesn't have? I'd tell the TO to go feth themselves if I have to buy a box of Flayed Ones for my Necrons to play.

They can only require you to run what you actually own.

I actually agree with it. Makes it so you don't see the same old same old every tourney. Also if something is so broken that it cripples an army not to take it, then that is poor rules in the first place.

Imagine a tournament where riptides, helldrakes, wave serpents, vendettas, devastators, venoms, crossants, death company, and nobz aren't allowed. Don't think we have a tyranid player, not sure wasent there for the whole drawing.

Its a unique one time event that people will give feedback about, and may or may not be used again. I don't see the big deal, its not like tourneys all across the country are going to pick up on this idea so as to "change the meta to be new and exciting". Its local and dosent affect your play one bit.

 jifel wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

RivenSkull wrote:
Wow that's absolutely idiotic.

What happens when someone picks a model unit a person doesn't have? I'd tell the TO to go feth themselves if I have to buy a box of Flayed Ones for my Necrons to play.

They can only require you to run what you actually own.

Yeah I spotted it and fixed it. I had a brain fart while reading.

RivenSkull wrote:
Wow that's absolutely idiotic.

What happens when someone picks a model unit a person doesn't have? I'd tell the TO to go feth themselves if I have to buy a box of Flayed Ones for my Necrons to play.

Edit: I did a stupid and didn't read part of the OP's post. My bad.

Still, I'be be pissed if I had to swap out Annihilation Barges for Lychguards or other wastes.

you write down what you own for the army, can only pick from that list. I suppose someone could be cheezy and just list good units, and say they don't own any underpowered ones, but I think 9/10 of the entrys are regulars to the store, and we would know if someone was fibbing.

I wouldn't play - sounds like a waste of time. It's just bringing back comped lists with not much pre thought put into it. Someone will figure how to game the system and win the tournament.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So, basically don't play Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, DEldar, Sisters, Orks, or Daemons without someone completely nerfing your army to heck and back out of pure over-reacting spite? Sounds marvelous. It could be fun where each player has to take one of a certain unit, for fun, but you should NEVER limit what a player can bring.

Don't forget IG. You can make the army unplayable with almost one swing.

Require them to run Rough Riders/ storm troopers/ deathstrike and eliminate Vendettas/ Leman Russes/ Artillery (based on what the player owns and likes running, of course). There, IG can't play.

FUN FUN FUN!

You are over reacting big time. Its one type of unit, chosen by one person randomly. So at MOST you would lose one of those things for IG, there is no entry fee, the prizes are donated by the store and using roughriders, a unit you must have thought was fun at one point or another enough that you actually bought them wouldn't kill you if right across the board your tau opponent was missing riptides and had a unit of sniper drones he had to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RivenSkull wrote:
Wow that's absolutely idiotic.

What happens when someone picks a model unit a person doesn't have? I'd tell the TO to go feth themselves if I have to buy a box of Flayed Ones for my Necrons to play.

They can only require you to run what you actually own.

Orock wrote:
I actually agree with it. Makes it so you don't see the same old same old every tourney. Also if something is so broken that it cripples an army not to take it, then that is poor rules in the first place.

Imagine a tournament where riptides, helldrakes, wave serpents, vendettas, devastators, venoms, crossants, death company, and nobz aren't allowed. Don't think we have a tyranid player, not sure wasent there for the whole drawing.

Its a unique one time event that people will give feedback about, and may or may not be used again. I don't see the big deal, its not like tourneys all across the country are going to pick up on this idea so as to "change the meta to be new and exciting". Its local and dosent affect your play one bit.

Imagine this. I play IG armored. I do not run vendettas as a matter of principle. I put my name in the hat, and someone stops me from running leman russes. How am I supposed to be able to compete with the corner stone of my army being removed?

What about the guy who wants to run a siege Imperial Fists list? Or the guy who wants to play the BA Death Company list (You know, the one with no scoring models)?

Hell, if you can ban transports (as you seem to suggest) you can make DE almost unplayable and screw with Eldar players who do not own a footdar army.


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Orock wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So, basically don't play Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, DEldar, Sisters, Orks, or Daemons without someone completely nerfing your army to heck and back out of pure over-reacting spite? Sounds marvelous. It could be fun where each player has to take one of a certain unit, for fun, but you should NEVER limit what a player can bring.

Don't forget IG. You can make the army unplayable with almost one swing.

Require them to run Rough Riders/ storm troopers/ deathstrike and eliminate Vendettas/ Leman Russes/ Artillery (based on what the player owns and likes running, of course). There, IG can't play.

FUN FUN FUN!

You are over reacting big time. Its one type of unit, chosen by one person randomly. So at MOST you would lose one of those things for IG, there is no entry fee, the prizes are donated by the store and using roughriders, a unit you must have thought was fun at one point or another enough that you actually bought them wouldn't kill you if right across the board your tau opponent was missing riptides and had a unit of sniper drones he had to use.

Or I own rough riders from a previous edition where they were playable. (I actually had some from a penal legion modeling project, but I digress).

And I am simply bringing up a likely scenario. If I said I played IG and didn't own vendettas or artillery, what do you think that random person is going to cut from the list.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I wouldn't play - sounds like a waste of time. It's just bringing back comped lists with not much pre thought put into it. Someone will figure how to game the system and win the tournament.

How is that different from gaming the system now? If someone picks a unit you cant use, and makes you take one you can you might not necessarily run in a tournament, I don't see how this would fall into your plans. Are you talking about a plant in the drawing, so you lose a crap unit and have to use a good one? Because the drawing was random, you would need like 5 or 6 guys in on it for decent odds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:

Orock wrote:
I actually agree with it. Makes it so you don't see the same old same old every tourney. Also if something is so broken that it cripples an army not to take it, then that is poor rules in the first place.

Imagine a tournament where riptides, helldrakes, wave serpents, vendettas, devastators, venoms, crossants, death company, and nobz aren't allowed. Don't think we have a tyranid player, not sure wasent there for the whole drawing.

Its a unique one time event that people will give feedback about, and may or may not be used again. I don't see the big deal, its not like tourneys all across the country are going to pick up on this idea so as to "change the meta to be new and exciting". Its local and dosent affect your play one bit.

Imagine this. I play IG armored. I do not run vendettas as a matter of principle. I put my name in the hat, and someone stops me from running leman russes. How am I supposed to be able to compete with the corner stone of my army being removed?

What about the guy who wants to run a siege Imperial Fists list? Or the guy who wants to play the BA Death Company list (You know, the one with no scoring models)?

Hell, if you can ban transports (as you seem to suggest) you can make DE almost unplayable and screw with Eldar players who do not own a footdar army.

I dunno, your allowed to proxy, take allies, and use forgeworld books too, with listed restrictions. Couldn't you just proxy the leman russ as one of the other 20 some odd battletanks available to them? Also you might actually have fun using your riders again, even if forced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orock wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So, basically don't play Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, DEldar, Sisters, Orks, or Daemons without someone completely nerfing your army to heck and back out of pure over-reacting spite? Sounds marvelous. It could be fun where each player has to take one of a certain unit, for fun, but you should NEVER limit what a player can bring.

Don't forget IG. You can make the army unplayable with almost one swing.

Require them to run Rough Riders/ storm troopers/ deathstrike and eliminate Vendettas/ Leman Russes/ Artillery (based on what the player owns and likes running, of course). There, IG can't play.

FUN FUN FUN!

You are over reacting big time. Its one type of unit, chosen by one person randomly. So at MOST you would lose one of those things for IG, there is no entry fee, the prizes are donated by the store and using roughriders, a unit you must have thought was fun at one point or another enough that you actually bought them wouldn't kill you if right across the board your tau opponent was missing riptides and had a unit of sniper drones he had to use.

Or I own rough riders from a previous edition where they were playable. (I actually had some from a penal legion modeling project, but I digress).

And I am simply bringing up a likely scenario. If I said I played IG and didn't own vendettas or artillery, what do you think that random person is going to cut from the list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your allowed to proxy, use imperial armor books (with clearly defined restrictions) and take allies. Surely there is some tank in the books that you can proxy your russes for.

The whole thing sounds stupid.

The game doesn't need comp. That's what codexes and FAQs are for.

dlight wrote:
The whole thing sounds stupid.

The game doesn't need comp. That's what codexes and FAQs are for.

So stupid you wouldn't enter a free tournament with prize support? Just out of principal? Or you don't like trying new ideas?

It is stupid, and highly so. Not all units are made equal. As others have pointed out, removing Leman Russes strikes a crippling blow to the army as a whole.

Using "Use Imperial Armour" just makes the thing even more stupid. What's the point in the system if you can just cheat around it by switching to Imperial Armour?

Orock wrote:

Imagine a tournament where riptides, helldrakes, wave serpents, vendettas, devastators, venoms, crossants, death company, and nobz aren't allowed. Don't think we have a tyranid player, not sure wasent there for the whole drawing.

Imagine? First of all, yes, obviously Orks are extremely overpowered and in definite need of a nerf. Nobz are clearly on the same level as Doom Scythes and Heldrakes. Are you sure the Sisters of Battle don't need something removed, too? Second, that is a whole lot of "overpowered". Also, Devastators? Really? Imagine! Imagine how totally not at all different your game would be without Devastators!

Orock wrote:
I actually agree with it. Makes it so you don't see the same old same old every tourney. Also if something is so broken that it cripples an army not to take it, then that is poor rules in the first place.

Specific armies. You are missing the point. In the Imperial Guard tank army example, the army is crippled. Not the Codex. That individual army. That doesn't mean that Leman Russes are required for the Imperial Guard to win (not by a long shot), but that that particular player's army is now invalid. I have a Heldrake in my Chaos army, but to have it removed would not cripple my army by not taking it - because I, fortunately, have the models to spare to make up those points, and because my entire playstyle isn't based around that one unit. Were Land Raiders to be removed from my army, I would not care because I don't take Land Raiders, even though I have one.

I can't really speak for Orks because I don't know the Codex, but I know they aren't exactly the most powerful army right now. Going by the logic seen in the other examples, banning Nobz appears to be a simple twitch reaction of "omg overpowered!!". I say, if Nobz are overpowered, let the greenskins have them. It is not poor rules, it is simply incredibly old rules.

Orock wrote:

Its a unique one time event that people will give feedback about, and may or may not be used again. I don't see the big deal, its not like tourneys all across the country are going to pick up on this idea so as to "change the meta to be new and exciting". Its local and dosent affect your play one bit.

Nobody said that. We are giving feedback based on your description of it. At no point did any poster in this thread state "Oh no! Clearly this is going to be adopted by Games Workshop themselves, in order to sell more models!". However, none of us like it.

Once again, I have a Heldrake in my army. Not because it's 'overpowered', but because it's an awesome robot space dragon. Excuse me for wanting to play with the model(s) I spent time and money on, just because of the arbitrary "Oh no it's overpowered!" reaction that everyone has "Be careful! It's just as dangerous as Nobz, or Devastators!".

Ignoring everything else, it's allowing other people to build your list for you. Which sucks. You know what's good for FUN? Daemons. Let's all play Daemons, because random tables and control of your army being taken out of your hands is FUN.

For Sister the choice to ban would obviously be the Excorcist and force them to take Repentia. There is no way to overcome this handicap. As such there would be no reason for someone to ever play sisters in this tourney.

The only way to play sisters (or really any army that you want to play) would be to say "this is all that I brought" so you can't ban/add anything to my list.

Does the TO allow extra time for the possible rebuilding of an army? Do your restrictions change every round (taking even more time)? How would you even manage to get in enough rounds to determine a winner? In other words, I agree with the above that the system is not optimal.

You folks need to ease off the throttle. That sounds awesome for a local tourney between people who all know each other. I wouldn't go to a GT with those rules, but not every tourney has to be like nova or feast of blades.

I think this is a great idea for a one-off tournament! Supposedly each person in the tournament knows the situation and is willing to submit to it.

Small group of regulars shaking things up.. What is not to like?

I also agree that for a RTT with people maybe travelling across the state ... maybe not.

-P

Sounds like fun, personally.

Sure, if you are a SERIOUS competitive player who only owns their specific list, and doesn't have or refuses to use anything else, it's not for you.

But to a semi competitive player with lots of other models to pick from, and whom doesn't mind trying out new stuff or making a less optimal unit work, it sounds like a blast. It would cut down on 'identical uber-optimised army syndrome, and encourage folk to try something new.

I'd definitely be in if i was anywhere near. I can't think of a single unit i own in any of my armies that i'd not be able to find a use for or do without, no matter what the enemy banned or demanded

Yeah... sounds great...

"Oh, you play GK? No dreadnoughts, and you have to take Karamazov. Now that I've taken out your long range anti-tank and forced you into taking a point sink, good luck with that."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Well, at least, for any of the five collections of miniatures that actually includes Karamazov.)

I think this is a great idea. You will probably have closer battles.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For Sister the choice to ban would obviously be the Excorcist and force them to take Repentia. There is no way to overcome this handicap. As such there would be no reason for someone to ever play sisters in this tourney.

3 blobs of repentia, 9 penitent engines, big squads of sisters for scoring with Jacobus and Kyrinov. It isn't great, but it is funny as hell.

Luckily, I don't own any repentia or PE so they couldn't force that one me. No exorcists, take Command Squad would be much worse than repentia.

Geez... You mean Chaos players have to play without Helldrakes? Eldar without Wraithknights? Tau without Riptides? IG without Leman Russ? Oh my God... You simply cannot play those armies without these! How will any of these armies compete without these units?!!?!?!? You mean these players have to use tactics? What are those? AND they have to use units that are subpar? Oh man... What is the TO thinking? Players know these rules ahead of time and still chose to play?! Wow... What a terrible tournament... Who in their right mind would ever want to play in this piece of crap tournament?

Honestly, it sounds like it would be fun. Players would be forced to play with units they otherwise never do. Obviously the players that are choosing to play know the restrictions and what can happen to them. I think seeing things liek Lychguard, Mandrakes, a Deathstrike Missile, or Pyrovores would be cool to see on the tabetop. Plus, its such a unique event, it might be a breath of fresh air for some players to play in an environment that isn't super competitive.

I think the hating on this local event is hilarious. You can tell who the players are that rely on the things that will potentially get banned and only use the competitive units. God forbid if someone had to use a unit they own but don't regularly use. God forbid if a tournament has an idea outside of the box. HATE HATE HATE! RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

Sounds terrible.

"No, you can't use your vendettas! Lascannon HWS are almost as good right? Got any Ogryn?"

"You're playing Necron Airforce? More like you're not playing in this tournament! No Night Scythes, but did you ever accidentally buy Flayed Ones? If so time to paint 'em up!"

The problem with this is through certain armys are more reliant on certain units.

I play DE if i lost my venoms ( i dont take venom spam) i would be screwed, my army is based around a quick mobile force and in one swipe i would lose these. other units i could be okay with on thw whole, but say losing my reavers and having to take mandrakes would also be a killer

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It is stupid, and highly so. Not all units are made equal. As others have pointed out, removing Leman Russes strikes a crippling blow to the army as a whole.

Using "Use Imperial Armour" just makes the thing even more stupid. What's the point in the system if you can just cheat around it by switching to Imperial Armour?

You make a good point. If they can use imperial armor and can't ban HQ or troop choices, then whats stopping me from getting russes banned and then running the ABG list. My russes are now HQs and Troops and I still get to run everything I want.

Also, whats the case with the GK elites and bikes? Most GK elites and the SM bikes can be made troops, but they start in elites and FA (respectively). Can my opponent ban those, or can I get around the ban by taking the appropriate HQ?

Sounds like fun, I quite like the Idea however it does sound like Dakka is just whining that they cant take their Tau-dar/Daemon Flying Circus/triple Helldrake/Cheesecrons/etc Netlist to table people, and may require them to actually use their head and use... (wait for it)... TACTICS AND SKILL (Oh my gosh, who knew?) than playing I-have-rules-hammer.

My advice is, because this doesn't sound too serious, then take what looks coolest to you, but I would not recommend whirlwinds, more stuff to distract your opponent so your scouts can do their role in your army, hope this helps

Sounds like a horrible way to try and handicap certain units. This system makes the arbitrary comp systems used in Europe look like a stroke of genius in comparison. I personally would not play in a tournament like this. It is too easy to cheat anyway, by simply claiming not to own whatever models you don't want to use. Honest players will be penalized harder than dishonest ones and whatever balance the TO thinks he is bringing to the game is really just going to make things more unbalanced.

If someone wanted to lie and say they only owned the best things in the codex, then I would want to play that person. The victory would be even sweeter after I hand them a loss. I guess I am the type of player that doesn't care what the handicap is, I would still play and want to beat the people that lie and attempt to cheat.

it makes you a better player having to actually use strategy to win games rather than the very point and click armies that are out there now. Tactics would be huge in a tournament like this, something I think some people on here just would not want to employ because "it's a handicap," or a "terrible idea," or "This is stupid because I can't play with the models I spent time building and painting." (My personal favorite)

Sorry you would have to spend time building and painting models you already own.... This is just ludicrous!

SCP Yeeman wrote:
If someone wanted to lie and say they only owned the best things in the codex, then I would want to play that person. The victory would be even sweeter after I hand them a loss. I guess I am the type of player that doesn't care what the handicap is, I would still play and want to beat the people that lie and attempt to cheat.

it makes you a better player having to actually use strategy to win games rather than the very point and click armies that are out there now. Tactics would be huge in a tournament like this, something I think some people on here just would not want to employ because "it's a handicap," or a "terrible idea," or "This is stupid because I can't play with the models I spent time building and painting." (My personal favorite)

Sorry you would have to spend time building and painting models you already own.... This is just ludicrous!

Have an Exalt