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Samael

5 man raven wing command squad with banner of fortitude, Grenade launcher

librarian level 2 on bike

5 man raven wing command squad with raven wing banner, apothecary and grenade launcher

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns
-multi melta attack bike

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns
-multi melta attack bike

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns

vindicator

vindicator

whirlwind



so as for tactics the 2 attack bikes are purely for the big tanks more more than 30' away turn 1, it give an extra 6' effective melta range turn 1 to hopefully take out any troubling av >12.

the tanks are their so with the combo of rad, I can ID up to T6 units... which is more than nice. the whirlwind is to help with the anti troop which i need seeing as no dakka banner

Big question on many minds is why no dakka banner, hmm good question, I personally love it but I'm always torn, on 1 hand it gives 4 shots per guy at max range (epic!) on the other hand it has a dismal 6' effect range which is well dismal. Its not even cheaper because as you want it to survive you give it the apothecary and that leads to more points than banner of fortitude which already helps with FnP. Howver, BoF has some major down sides.... as you can see I'm really not convinced either way so any statistics, tactical advice etc is more than welcome, especially on this issue.

why RWB also? well that 4D6 run back is epic and cheap!

personally I've tried a lot of lists, this is the first with tanks (yet to be tested) but I'm still searching for a great balance to make an effective list, i usually verse, farsight bomb (tau), eldar, wraith or flyer spam ( necrons), marines or soon to be facing hell turkey spam.... (not looking forward to that)

any C&C is more than welcome, i realize it has many holes but I don't know how to appropriately fix them without creating new holes. thanks

It all seems solid to be honest. And from what you've said you already know the pros and cons of SoD vs SoF, so there's not much to say about that.

Consider a PFG on your librarian to help protect bikes vs cover ignoring markerlights/ darkreapers/ heldrakes. Might also come in handy giving your vindicators a 4++ save to compliment their average range.

actually that's not bad, thanks man. how does that go in combat in helping your opponent though? I've never tried, but optimally i would put him in the RWB black knights and they will probably end up in combat and I'm just concerned that I'll help them too much. or do you think he belongs in another squad?

Well it's true he may help the enemy with the 4++ save, but remember it is only 3 range and models not units, so it shouldn't effect too many of the opponents forces. Also remember that you can position him in the squad, so try to keep him out on a wing of the squad if he needs to charge with the black knights into a combat where 4++ isn't needed.

On the other hand if you really need to charge those terminators then get him right in the middle, as that 4++ could potentially save you a lot of points. Lastly, as corvus hammers don't ave an AP outside of rending, most of the time the PFG won't actually give anything to your opponent.

As to where you run him...totally depends on what is happening on the board and what skills he rolls. If he gets the invisibility skill, then let him roll with the black knights as they crush most things in CC. Is that heldrake bearing down on your bike squad, get him in there to help save some of them. Vindicators in a bad place? Zoom him behind them and out of sight to negate 50% of the enemy pen's and glances. He is a utility character and can work in so many places.

If running the PFG I tend to use the force staff, as it doesn't care too much about the enemies' 4++ save.

Yeah thanks that sounds not too bad, where do you think I should 'cut some fat' to squeeze it in?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
what about this

Samael

5 man raven wing command squad with banner of fortitude, Grenade launcher

librarian level 2 on bike with PFG and auspex (because I had points extra)

5 man raven wing command squad with raven wing banner, apothecary and grenade launcher

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns
-multi melta attack bike

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns
-multi melta attack bike

6 raven wing bikes with 2 melta guns

5 raven wing bikes with 2 flamers

vindicator

vindicator

whirlwind

Obvious choices to me would be:
I) Apothecary
II) Level 2 psyker
III) Some melta guns - Flamers might be a good choice anyway vs hordes, especially if you are lacking the bolter banner. Though this will not cover all of the cost of the PFG.
IV) lose 1 bike, - This nearly covers the cost.

In the end it depends what you want to lose. I Guess losing a bike, and switching 1 squad over to flamers would be a good bet if you want the librarian and apothecary to stay the same. It would also give you 5 points left to spend, which would most likely be best spent on the librarian to get an auspex to help deal with units in cover or infravisor to help his unit when night fighting.

i think get rid of everything and just add more bikes honestly, cause i would own this army in a battle

WarhammerHater101 wrote:
i think get rid of everything and just add more bikes honestly, cause i would own this army in a battle

Useful. Maybe you could say why you would 'own' it, and with what army. Then he might actually get something out of your comment.

It is a troll acount. Btw Op it sounds like you will struggle with fliers with this list.

I like this list it looks really cool, my boyfriend plays raven wings and his models are awesome

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
Btw Op it sounds like you will struggle with fliers with this list.

a little, my main anti flyer is melta guns and plasma on the black knights so i think by turn two i may be able to slowly take out a flyer a turn but it depends on what is already on the field. I would like to test it against necron flyer spam sometime soon to see how it does fair, but against hell turkeys I just roll over and concede (not really, but they are my biggest weakness) as for other flyers, if its just 1 or 2 im not too concerned and very few people are taking tonnes of flyers right now, the most competitive codex's atm (mainly tau and eldar) have relatively weak or never used flyers so I'm not too concerned but in saying that the new marines may be a problem.

 Jd7 wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
Btw Op it sounds like you will struggle with fliers with this list.

a little, my main anti flyer is melta guns and plasma on the black knights so i think by turn two i may be able to slowly take out a flyer a turn but it depends on what is already on the field. I would like to test it against necron flyer spam sometime soon to see how it does fair, but against hell turkeys I just roll over and concede (not really, but they are my biggest weakness) as for other flyers, if its just 1 or 2 im not too concerned and very few people are taking tonnes of flyers right now, the most competitive codex's atm (mainly tau and eldar) have relatively weak or never used flyers so I'm not too concerned but in saying that the new marines may be a problem.

Yeah I was thinking about the fliers too, although to me they are only really an issue to the vehicles. The reason is bikes can mitigate a lot of the damage due to their high movement and hit and run. A pure bike army would have less trouble. If you want to keep it themed but also have some anti air then maybe include SM's as allies, take a captain/commander on a bike with artificier armour for a nice 2+ save vs heldrakes, scouts in a landspeeder for troops (and second floor objective scoring), then one of the new anti-air tanks. (I've heard the missile one is better, but I have no facts or opinion on the matter). Well, the anti air tank or a storm raven of course.

Don't take DA flyers. Ever. There really is no point right now.

The new marines fliers are meh. wont be used. But many fliers are resilient and will kill the crud out of 3+ armor. Also, don't forget that if you dedicate 1 meltagun on a flier, you have a 1/6 TO HIT, and the entire squad who cant harm the flier will have to hold their fire. also you can only assault what you shoot. also DA fliers are overpriced, but i will admit, a bit cool, If not at all synergistic.

Thankfully though you combat squad so you can use 2 meltas and only sacrafice 1 bolter, and as for assault, these guys are only slightly above average in combat so I would not loose much but it is not the most cost effective tactic. I would not be silly enough to take DA flyers, they are just as effective as 2 meltas almost and double the price.