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Challenges killed powerfists for tac sergeants ...and they weren't even that great before.

I'm a fan of Combi-Grav on all my Sallies Tactical Squads.

I think that Grav guns are very strong and there should be some form of Grav is every list. For awhile I was trying to figure out where I should put them without overlapping roles. I had 2 Grav and Grav-Pistol in my Sternguard but the Special Ammo is too good to pass-up. I ended up swapping them to my Tacticals. This doesn't waste the Mastercrafted and gives the Tacticals more shots to kill a MC compared to a Combi-Melta.

I'd rather have Melta/MM/Combi-Grav then M/MM/Combi-Melta. 2 BS4 and 1 BS1 is worse than 3 BS4 and 1 BS1. From the math above, Gravs are better at killing MCs (and with Riptides/Wrathknights running around I'll take those numbers). As for Mech, you can still immobilize Vehicles and strip hull points. An immobilized transport is almost as worthless as a dead one. You killed their mobility, that's half the battle.

I'm a big fan of the Combi-Gravs atm. This might change as I playtest more and more but I think it's a strong choice. Master-crafted just adds to it. 2 shots is better than 1. Plasmagun is another argument but S7 is a lot less flexible then the Grav imo.

As for CC weapons on Sergeants... no. Just no. As stated: waste of points. Tacticals don't go into CC. Rapid Fire every turn you can. If you need to assault a Vehicle you have free Kraks on all models. S6 isn't too bad on most back armor. If it's a LR... well, you're playing Salamanders, I think you can figure it out.

Put the grav and combi-grav guns in a bike squad so they can get full value without losing mobility.

Saythings, wtwlf123, please read the initial post. While I appreciate that you think you are trying to help, I am not interested in these opinions.

To reiterate: The sergeant is getting a combi-melta. Period. I am not interested in discussion on this issue. The sergeant is also getting a close combat weapon. If you don't think that this is the best decision, that's fine. Please feel free to disagree with me, but do so in a format that does not include posting in this thread. At this point, such posts are going beyond the scope of helpful and are beginning to enter the realm of off-topic or even trolling. Please stop.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits/drawbacks of the close combat weapons I have mentioned. (I am also willing to kick around arguments for/against close combat weapons not mentioned.) Also the utility of melta bombs. That is the topic. Let's all stay on topic, please.


wtwlf - I agree with you about power fists. The introduction of challenges in 6th edition has seriously impacted my sergeants. (Who always took pf's before hand.) That's why I'm even bringing this up. I'm inclined to think Lightning Claws are the better option otherwise.

mwnciboo - I agree that strictly against vehicles with a reduced rear armor value, the power fist is clearly superior. The problem is that in almost all other melee situations, the power fist is either not the best choice, or the difference doesn't justify the cost increase. At least I don't think so. Do you think I'm off base?

@wtflf123- Who on earth goes salamanders without Vulken? TL melta weaponry is literally their best feature, hands down.

People always hate on MB's yet I have destroyed bastions, LR's and heck even LR demolisher variants are rear armor11 and PF's are silly bad at taking those out, IMO if you need to assault transports with Salamanders then your already losing the game. Melta bombs are VERY cheap and with MC they are almost guaranteed to hit a moving tank and that AP1 is beyond magnificent. Personally I'd go combi melta and MC melta bombs even if I were taking a CC weapon.

Have you considered the power maul at all? If you choose to MC a maul it's as efficient as still having a bonus attack while not needing the pistol. S6 is nothing to turn your nose up at either and you could model them as smaller smiths hammers

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

My money is on Fist & Combi-Melta, no Melta-Bombs.

Fist lets him get his full attacks. The threat of doubling out characters makes him a bit of a trap as well for your opponent. Do I *really* want to assault that unit with my IC? One whiffy H2H phase and that Sgt might bash his brains in.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

My money is on Fist & Combi-Melta, no Melta-Bombs.

Fist lets him get his full attacks. The threat of doubling out characters makes him a bit of a trap as well for your opponent. Do I *really* want to assault that unit with my IC? One whiffy H2H phase and that Sgt might bash his brains in.

I was in that camp for a long time too. I've seen quite a few sergeants die before that I1 came around, though. And since I Combat Squad all day, every day, it only makes the problem worse. Still, good to see more opinions on the subject. Your argument is a powerful one.

I've read this entire post. I'll stick with my guns and say Combi-Grav is great on Sally Sergeants.

Everything else is a huge point sink. A terrible waste of points. If I had extra points, I'd give my Sternguard another combi.

If I wanted to go fluffy CC sergeants, I've always used Powerfists because I like the way they look on the models and it always them to wound anything in the game. But they are terrible. Especially with challenges and precision in 6th edition.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

My money is on Fist & Combi-Melta, no Melta-Bombs.

Fist lets him get his full attacks. The threat of doubling out characters makes him a bit of a trap as well for your opponent. Do I *really* want to assault that unit with my IC? One whiffy H2H phase and that Sgt might bash his brains in.

I wouldn't rely on that personally. The majority of CC geared ICs I've seen roll with some combination of MSS, T5, EW, or 3+ invuln with a WS and adjusted S stat high enough to not only hit the sergeant on 3s, but usually wounding on 3's, if not 2's, with AP3 or better. They'll challenge and usually kill the sergeant (or get him to kill himself), or the sergeant will decline and shuffle to the back of the combat so the IC gets to mulch the grunts.



Personally if I absolutely had to have a CCW on my tac squad sergeants, I'd just go cheap and get a regular power weapon (sword is probably best for damaging basic grunts, maybe axe if I can get away with just getting stuck in with non-blender units).

Generally speaking, Tactical Sergeants should almost always take a combi-weapon. Given that, the lightning claw is IMO the best special melee weapon you can take-- it doesn't suffer from taking a combi-weapon instead of a pistol, is actually better than the power sword + pistol against most targets, and doesn't forfeit your initiative like an axe/fist.

nobody wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

My money is on Fist & Combi-Melta, no Melta-Bombs.

Fist lets him get his full attacks. The threat of doubling out characters makes him a bit of a trap as well for your opponent. Do I *really* want to assault that unit with my IC? One whiffy H2H phase and that Sgt might bash his brains in.

I wouldn't rely on that personally. The majority of CC geared ICs I've seen roll with some combination of MSS, T5, EW, or 3+ invuln with a WS and adjusted S stat high enough to not only hit the sergeant on 3s, but usually wounding on 3's, if not 2's, with AP3 or better. They'll challenge and usually kill the sergeant (or get him to kill himself), or the sergeant will decline and shuffle to the back of the combat so the IC gets to mulch the grunts.

Personally if I absolutely had to have a CCW on my tac squad sergeants, I'd just go cheap and get a regular power weapon (sword is probably best for damaging basic grunts, maybe axe if I can get away with just getting stuck in with non-blender units).

Kingsley wrote:Generally speaking, Tactical Sergeants should almost always take a combi-weapon. Given that, the lightning claw is IMO the best special melee weapon you can take-- it doesn't suffer from taking a combi-weapon instead of a pistol, is actually better than the power sword + pistol against most targets, and doesn't forfeit your initiative like an axe/fist.

I'm of a mind to agree with both of you. There's no reason to spend the ten extra points on the fist if the CC weapon is only providing a little extra kick while he's getting mowed down anyway. The reason that power sword wasn't included on the poll was this: the combi-melta is a given on my sergeants, so there's absolutely no reason not to take a lightning claw over a power sword. (Better abilities, same cost, and I wasn't getting the bonus attack anyway.)

Saythings wrote:I've read this entire post. I'll stick with my guns and say Combi-Grav is great on Sally Sergeants.

Everything else is a huge point sink. A terrible waste of points. If I had extra points, I'd give my Sternguard another combi.

If I wanted to go fluffy CC sergeants, I've always used Powerfists because I like the way they look on the models and it always them to wound anything in the game. But they are terrible. Especially with challenges and precision in 6th edition.

Well, it's been heard. Now, I've been very polite about this, but please stop posting this argument in this thread.

mwnciboo - I agree that strictly against vehicles with a reduced rear armor value, the power fist is clearly superior. The problem is that in almost all other melee situations, the power fist is either not the best choice, or the difference doesn't justify the cost increase. At least I don't think so. Do you think I'm off base?

No I don't think you are off base at all. I would agree the cost is ridiculous, especially with the amount of things that can target the Sgt, now in 6th. I've been so focused on FOW, I really need to get more games with 6th. In 5th you would tarpit, and strike with the Fist safe in the knowledge your Tac squad could stay in the fight and keep the Sarge alive.

I've been looking at the Axe, Maul, Sword, PF trade off and nothing is particularly great or versatile. I think a little tweak to the Space Marine Troops should have been done in 6th...

1, Maybe make Sergeants 2 wounds?
2, Or give all Tactical Marines Bolter + Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife.

It would only be a little tweak, but Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife combo would give a tactical marine 3 attacks on the charge. Just like Grey Hunters but without counter charge.

On-Topic :-

It looks like from a practical point of view, you want to make the Init count - So it's Power Sword, but I can also see merit in Combi-Flame/ Melta and a Melta bomb.

 mwnciboo wrote:

mwnciboo - I agree that strictly against vehicles with a reduced rear armor value, the power fist is clearly superior. The problem is that in almost all other melee situations, the power fist is either not the best choice, or the difference doesn't justify the cost increase. At least I don't think so. Do you think I'm off base?

No I don't think you are off base at all. I would agree the cost is ridiculous, especially with the amount of things that can target the Sgt, now in 6th. I've been so focused on FOW, I really need to get more games with 6th. In 5th you would tarpit, and strike with the Fist safe in the knowledge your Tac squad could stay in the fight and keep the Sarge alive.

I've been looking at the Axe, Maul, Sword, PF trade off and nothing is particularly great or versatile. I think a little tweak to the Space Marine Troops should have been done in 6th...

1, Maybe make Sergeants 2 wounds?
2, Or give all Tactical Marines Bolter + Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife.

It would only be a little tweak, but Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife combo would give a tactical marine 3 attacks on the charge. Just like Grey Hunters but without counter charge.

On-Topic :-

It looks like from a practical point of view, you want to make the Init count - So it's Power Sword, but I can also see merit in Combi-Flame/ Melta and a Melta bomb.

Again, if I'm going with the power sword, it costs me nothing but gains me re-rolls to wounds if I get a lightning claw. (And that will be much easier to convert my fists into ) Thanks for thinking it through, though. If you get down to the Southern Illinois region, I'd be happy to give you a couple of 6th ed games.

So, while on the topic of loadouts, are people paying for Vet Sergeants on top of their weaponry?

I don't think that is an upgrade I'll be running in my lists. That 10 points is another combi-melta/flamer somewhere else.

I concur, Nick. The bonuses added by the Veteran Sergeant aren't really worth it for 10 points, in my opinion. 1 extra attack and 1 extra Ld isn't really worth 10 points to me, unless I don't have anywhere else to spend it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I concur, Nick. The bonuses added by the Veteran Sergeant aren't really worth it for 10 points, in my opinion. 1 extra attack and 1 extra Ld isn't really worth 10 points to me, unless I don't have anywhere else to spend it.

Eh, if you're already taking the lightning claw, you might as well take the veteran upgrade too. Expensive CC weapon on A1 model is just waste. And that extra Ld won't hurt either.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I concur, Nick. The bonuses added by the Veteran Sergeant aren't really worth it for 10 points, in my opinion. 1 extra attack and 1 extra Ld isn't really worth 10 points to me, unless I don't have anywhere else to spend it.

I would never take a special melee weapon on a non-Veteran Sergeant.

You two may be on to something. I didn't realize that the base sergeant only had 1 attack for some reason. (Baby induced sleep deprivation.) I think that makes an even stronger case for taking the lightning claw over the power fist, though, since you're already dropping ten points to upgrade the sergeant.

Oops, forgot the single lightning claw and regular power weapons were the same cost in this codex. Shows how often I look at that section.


And I had a bit of a shock too over the change to needing to pay for Vet Sergeants. I agree if you are going to take a CC special weapon you really should be paying for the Vet Sergeant upgrade.

I already said my personal view of Combi-weapon only (specifically Combi-meltas on a Salamanders Sarge).

BUT... If you are going to run a CCW no mater what anyone says, and are going to be running Combi-Meltas as well, then upgrading to a Vet Sarge and taking a single Lightning Claw is the obvious choice. Just remember thats another 25 additional points per Sarge.


IMO, from worst to best choice for Tactical Veteran Sergeants with a Combi-Melta:

Power Axe: See Power Fist. Worse still, it can't even ID T3 characters so there's no fear factor.

Power Fist: "Unwieldy" will get him killed before he can swing, especially with challenges.

Thunder Hammer: See Power Fist. Slightly more expensive than the already expensive Power Fist, but also slightly better because of concussive and the fact that its fluffy.

Power Maul: S6 is nice, and AP4 is good if you know you are facing light infantry and not MEQ. Even better with a Pistol for that +1 Attack.

Power Sword: Good all around weapon even vs MEQ, and especially if you are taking a pistol to get that +1 attack..

Single Lightning Claw: You can't get an extra attack (not that you have a second CCW to get it, so no big deal)... but you have Shred to make up for it (which is also better than just +1A vs MEQ or higher toughness opponents). Same points cost as a normal Power Weapon, same or better killing power then a Power Sword across all Toughnesses, still strikes at I4. The clear winner.

why not give the seargent every upgrade he can take? since aparently the best way to take the seargent isnt viable, why not just load him out to every possible situation? sure a huge point sink, but so is the cc weapons. have you even tried just a combi? or are you just saying it wont ever work? try it out, and relize that that cc weapon isnt needed. just do alot of games of both, and youll see. were just trying to save you the time of play testing it over and over agian til lyou see.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
why not give the seargent every upgrade he can take? since aparently the best way to take the seargent isnt viable, why not just load him out to every possible situation? sure a huge point sink, but so is the cc weapons. have you even tried just a combi? or are you just saying it wont ever work? try it out, and relize that that cc weapon isnt needed. just do alot of games of both, and youll see. were just trying to save you the time of play testing it over and over agian til lyou see.

To me it sounds like he either:

A- Already modeled all his sergeants with power fists etc. etc.
B- He has a limited model count and needs inflated costs to play bigger games
C- Really likes the fluff of having decked out unit characters.

All are valid reasons since it's his hobby. I see your points as well but he's clearly committed to making them work for him.

Thank you Red Corsair, I appreciate the assistance. However, I have close to 4000 points in Salamanders (and I play 1-2k point games). I also have alternative sergeants for each of my squads, so that isn't an issue either.

The answer is actually D - I build my lists according to local trends, not global trends. As I said a little further up the page, the three most popular armies in my area are Necrons, Tau, and IG. My tactical squads wind up in combat with Immortals, Destroyers, and Battlesuits far too often for me not to have an AP 3 weapon in the tactical squads.

My lists almost always contain full squads anyway, so the 50 or 75 points that I would save from dropping all CC entirely really doesn't give me much benefit. There's not a whole lot I can do with it. An Aegis Line? I don't have any infantry that isn't either in a Land Raider or a Drop Pod. I could buy a single extra terminator. A Mastery 1 Librarian. An HK Missile or a Storm Bolter on my Land Raider. Or a CC weapon for my Sternguard sergeant. What else? A single useful attack bike or Land Speeder? Sorry, but no one has convinced me that taking away the sergeant's CC weapons is the most viable option.

Now, I've been very polite, exceptionally so. But this has gone on a little too far. If you have anything more to say, be it an argument or a snarky remark, then I would ask that you kindly leave it elsewhere.

Back on topic:

Arkios wrote:

Power Axe: See Power Fist. Worse still, it can't even ID T3 characters so there's no fear factor.

Power Fist: "Unwieldy" will get him killed before he can swing, especially with challenges.

Thunder Hammer: See Power Fist. Slightly more expensive than the already expensive Power Fist, but also slightly better because of concussive and the fact that its fluffy.

Power Maul: S6 is nice, and AP4 is good if you know you are facing light infantry and not MEQ. Even better with a Pistol for that +1 Attack.

Power Sword: Good all around weapon even vs MEQ, and especially if you are taking a pistol to get that +1 attack..

Single Lightning Claw: You can't get an extra attack (not that you have a second CCW to get it, so no big deal)... but you have Shred to make up for it (which is also better than just +1A vs MEQ or higher toughness opponents). Same points cost as a normal Power Weapon, same or better killing power then a Power Sword across all Toughnesses, still strikes at I4. The clear winner.

Hmmm. Thanks for the breakdown. In general, I agree. (The reasons you list are the reasons I didn't even bother to list P-Swords or P-Mauls.) I thought there might still be a little debate when it came to the rest, though. Out of curiosity, am I wrong about power axes? I thought it was the axe that gave +2 St, and the maul that gave +1. So the axe WOULD ID T3 characters. Or am I incorrect?

The axe is +1.

How about combi plasma without a cc.

Special weapon slots should be used on flamers and melta guns so the list is going to be short on plasma shots.

Plasma synergizes well with the bolter shots from the rest of the squad.

Salamanders already have a ton of TL melta shots so it would be redundant to MC a combi melta if vulcan is in the list.

Tac squads shouldn't be in CC unless it's with IG or fire warriors. If something is meaner and nastier than a Tac squad throw an Ironclad in it's face or dakka it instead.

No problem Jimsolo, and I wasn't trying to pigeon hole your reasoning but was just listing possible reasons and more importantly THAT you had your reasons. I think for your described meta the best answer may be power mauls or lightning claws. I am leaning more on the LC side for you since neither will gain an attack with the combi weapon so the LC specialist drawback is irrelevant and with the reroll to wound the claw is going to wound almost as often but will ignore just about all your listed threats armor save. If your combi-weapon is melta or flamer then obviously MC the claw, if its a combi plasma then I'd go for that instead personally.

I never take combi-plasmas in my Salamander armies, Schad, and while I appreciate the attempt at help, as I have said multiple times now, I'm not interested in discussing different ranged weapon options, nor am I interested in discussing not taking a close combat weapon.

Red, I agree that the LC is probably the better option at this point. LC and Melta Bombs are probably the way to go. Ends up shaving five points off per squad on the way I used to run them. Eh, it's something at least.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Or a CC weapon for my Sternguard sergeant.

Wait, you mean he doesn't have one? You're giving your tactical Sergeants CC weapons but not to Sternguad Sergeants?

A bit of discussion around the topic is all right but if the OP is definite that he only wants to talk about specific combos, let's not waste time by introducing other stuff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Or a CC weapon for my Sternguard sergeant.

Wait, you mean he doesn't have one? You're giving your tactical Sergeants CC weapons but not to Sternguad Sergeants?

Nope. I admit, that's a holdout from the days of last edition, where I just didn't have the points for it. Even now, I am leery about the number of points in my Sternguard squad. A bad deployment for them means 365 points Deep Striking off my list and into the garbage. Adding another 15-25 points into that never seemed all that wise to me. With the new freed up points though, I may just.