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So I played space marines back in Third (I was 12) and I am currently restarting an army and I always wondered why SM keep using the Rhino as their main transport when something like the Chimera at least in terms of the gave seems statistically better in every way (weapons AV and transport capacity) and why do SM not use anything like a Leman Russ. Do SM have their own forge worlds that only have certain STC designs? Also I kinda remember somehting about SW used to have the Leman Russ tank in their armory or am I mistaken?

From my understanding, yes the Chimera is better but is also more expensive to produce, and harder to maintain and repair. The beauty of the Rhino (and all Rhino-based vehicles like Preds) is its simplicity and reliability; the furnace-like engine can run on almost anything, even wood or corpses. And its very simple to operate and repair. I recall a BL novel (not sure which, might be one of the Ciphias Cain) where a character recalls that he was able to both operate and repair a rhino despite not having any training on how, its just that simple and intuitive.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
From my understanding, yes the Chimera is better but is also more expensive to produce, and harder to maintain and repair. The beauty of the Rhino (and all Rhino-based vehicles like Preds) is its simplicity and reliability; the furnace-like engine can run on almost anything, even wood or corpses. And its very simple to operate and repair. I recall a BL novel (not sure which, might be one of the Ciphias Cain) where a character recalls that he was able to both operate and repair a rhino despite not having any training on how, its just that simple and intuitive.

I've read the fluff and seen similar things, however to me this would support its use with the IG instead of the marines. Imo it would make more sense if IG got the chassis which is more easy to repair and maintain, as they have less training and also serve in the field for longer periods of time than the marines - who are most often called in to quickly resolve a situation rather than fight a war of attrition.

But I can see due to the private nature of many chapters I can see why they would want a more reliable vehicle which requires less raw resources/ involvement with forgeworlds and the mechanicus

Maybe its just not up to them. I think a lot of stuff military wise is used because that is what you are given or for traditions sake. The same way san fransisco fire department still uses wood ladders and some departments leather helmets.

That is true also sometimes it feels like SM are sort of a reminder of a bygone age that sometimes swoop in to save the day but I feel that even a very successful and long lived imperial trooper or captain might go his whole life without ever seeing a SM

AdeptusAwesome wrote:
But I can see due to the private nature of many chapters I can see why they would want a more reliable vehicle which requires less raw resources/ involvement with forgeworlds and the mechanicus

Probably this is the reason. In the BA codex Dante refuses to give the Adeptus Mechanicus or anyone else the plans for the Baal Predator, probably because he wants to maintain a monopoly on the design and doesn't want it to fall into the wrong hands.

Commonality of spares would be one reason. SM don't rely on the munitorum for spare parts, and requiring only the one set of STCs for most of their vehicle parts simplifies logistics a lot.

The hulls are all the same (and so are the tracks, engines, etc) compared to the chimera, Leman Russ, etc.

The same chassis means the same magna clamp setup can be used on the T-hawk transporters regardless of whether it is two rhinos, two razorbacks, two predators, etc being carried.

Magna clamp?

Magnetic Clamp that the Thunderhawk uses to pick up the vehicles it is transporting.


I think, fluffwise, the Rhino is easier to maintain and is faster. Thus Marines, who often operate away from steady supply, can maintain it better.

It has better overall armor, while the Chimera sacrifices its side armor for better front armor.


In actuality, they should really use both as they fill different roles.

The Chimera is an IFV. Its designed carry troops to the front line and then provide fire support as the battle progresses.

The Rhino is an APC. It simply carries you to the battle and thats it.

The Razorback is a conversion of the Rhino into an IFV.

Does anyone know about SW getting leman Russes?

It's a figment of 40k history, actually. You would think that space marines, who have difficult to maintain power armor, and expensive to upkeep bolters would have the transport that is likewise better and more expensive, and guardsmen, who are forced into things like lasguns due to their rugged simplicity would be stuck with rhinos - cheap, crappy, and easy to maintain.

But, as said, the reason it's not the other way around is due to history. Back in the day (well, and still), pretty much any space marine unit could take a rhino. Unless you were terminators. In fact, termiantors not riding in rhinos was an explicit bit of game balance, because otherwise, you'd have an army that was entirely meched up, and that would be unfair. So unfair, they forced terminators to ride in the much more expensive land raider.

Meanwhile, if you looked around, this "40k isn't about mech armies because transports are too good" was enforced in other ways. In the old imperial guard codex, for example, basically nothing got access to a chimera, except stormtroopers (because they were cool), and ogryn (likewise, but even then, they had to start in a transport - they couldn't enter one after they disembarked). Guard infantry could take chimeras, but they were so rare that you could only take one squad in a chimera per every entire infantry platoon you took. And if you took doctrines, you had to spend one of them buying back the ability to take them.

But then GW said "feth it, let's have mass mech gunline spam", and now suddenly all units in all armies, more or less, could take a transport, so the whole "you see fewer of tanks that are harder to build and harder to maintain" thing went straight out the window.

SM had the crappy transport so that they COULD have everyone in a transport because not even space marines would be able to have chimeras for EVERYONE in their army. Then that turned into guard have chimeras, and can just run mech, and that took what was special about space marines away. Instead, they were just stuck with the crappy transport.

That said, properly armored, like on a predator, the rhino chassis isn't necessarily a bad thing, and space marines haven't actually used rhinos since they got drop pods... so they don't, you know... actually USE rhinos anymore...

They do not use Rhinos anymore? Like period? I find that hard to believe

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

I've read the fluff and seen similar things, however to me this would support its use with the IG instead of the marines. Imo it would make more sense if IG got the chassis which is more easy to repair and maintain, as they have less training and also serve in the field for longer periods of time than the marines - who are most often called in to quickly resolve a situation rather than fight a war of attrition.

Perhaps the rhino, while easy to use, is harder to produce than the Chimera, and thus not available in the numbers the IG needs them in.
Or (this being 40K), there are only a limited number of Forge World with the SCT templates to produce rhino-based vehicles, however easy to produce they are, resulting in the same numbers discrepancy above.

Plus, the IG serving longer in the field is actually an argument against them needing the rhino - the IG tends towards trench warfare rather than modern warfare; once the guardsmen are on the front lines they won't be needing the transport much anymore. Transportation to the front lines doesn't require as robust a vehicle as that's mostly through friendly territory, whereas marines need something that can get them to the enemy's front lines without breaking down so they can punch a hole in it.

Many moons ago in a bygone edition Space Wolves had a few Leman Russ in their armory as a tribute to their Primarch.

I believe though they were all the Exterminator Variant (the ones with Twin Linked Autocannons).

AdeptusAwesome wrote:They do not use Rhinos anymore? Like period? I find that hard to believe

In the fluff they do, but not really on the tabletop.

And that's part of what's going on here. The fluff was written to describe what was happening in the rules and in the game, not the other way around.

 Ailaros wrote:

AdeptusAwesome wrote:They do not use Rhinos anymore? Like period? I find that hard to believe

In the fluff they do, but not really on the tabletop. And that's part of what's going on here. The fluff was written to describe what was happening in the rules and in the game, not the other way around.

Aye, game vs fluff. Like the Razorback spam in 5th edition games when the marine codex actually said many Chapters still don't trust a design that's merely 5000 years old... Fluff marines don't change fast, but players will happily shell out cash for 5-6 of the newest kits if they're good on the table.

The Rhino, Land Raider, and Spartan chassis are extremely versatile. Due to the three of them just being increasingly larger METAL BAWKSES you can do so much with their designs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
In actuality, they should really use both as they fill different roles.

The Chimera is an IFV. Its designed carry troops to the front line and then provide fire support as the battle progresses.

The Rhino is an APC. It simply carries you to the battle and thats it.

The Razorback is a conversion of the Rhino into an IFV.

And the conversion of a Rhino into an IFV makes the Chimera redundant for them, and in the same swing, keeps the same pool of spare parts, repair knowledge and other uses such as the aforementioned Magna Clamps.

They saw the need for an IFV like the Chimera, and adapted the Rhino chassis. Just like they saw the need for a linebreaker like the Demolisher, and adapted the Vindicator out of the Rhino. Just like they saw the need for an artillery vehicle, and adapted the Whirlwind out of the Rhino. Just like they saw the need for an MBT and adapted the Predator out of the Rhino. Just like they now saw the need for a Hydra, and adapted the Hunter and Stalker from the Rhino.

Logistically it makes the most sense, as people have already said. They only need one specific pool of parts for repair and maintenance and knowledge of said vehicle chassis. When most chapters make all of their stuff themselves, it also cuts down on required materials.

 -Loki- wrote:
They saw the need for and adapted. Logistically it makes the most sense, as people have already said. They only need one specific pool of parts for repair and maintenance and knowledge of said vehicle chassis. When most chapters make all of their stuff themselves, it also cuts down on required materials.

Exactly so. Chapters have Mars-trained Techmarines but there are still only so many. For example, the Blood Angels have 35 Techmarines and 105 servitors in the Armory. There's 50 non-transport Rhino variants under the armory, as well as 43 Land Raiders and 51 Stormravens. An unmentioned amount of Rhino/Razorback transports. Not to mention 19 Dreadnoughts, 5 Furioso Dreadnoughts and 5 Furioso Librarians. That's a LOT of territory for 35 Techmarines (+105 servitors) to oversee, especially in a Chapter known for fighting far and wide across the Imperium.

I assume their fleet can carry out most of the needed repairs and maintenance on it's own, but if not there's also 2 Battlebarges, 7 Strike Cruisers, 16 Rapid Strike vessels, 36 Thunderhawk Gunships and 3 Thunderhawk Transporters that need repairs and maintenance. From the same 35 Techmarines (+105 servitors).

Sure, but if the imperial guard, who can't make or maintain their own vehicles get the expensive and difficult to maintain transports, while the space marines, who CAN make and maintain their own vehicles, are stuck using crappy stuff that's easy to repair...

... well, you have the opposite of what should be happening.

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but if the imperial guard, who can't make or maintain their own vehicles get the expensive and difficult to maintain transports, while the space marines, who CAN make and maintain their own vehicles, are stuck using crappy stuff that's easy to repair...

... well, you have the opposite of what should be happening.

Welcome to the Imperium of Man

I think they later retconned it by saying that Chimeras aren't a comfortable or easy fit for the eight foot tall quarter ton space marines.

Then again Henchmen Chimeras can fit Terminators.

Since when have space marines ever been about being cheap and efficient?

I wouldn't go so far as to call Rhinos crappy. They are (at least in fluff terms) effective, reliable, sturdy transports that run off the smell of an oily rag and are easily maintained. That probably matters more to Space Marines than the number of guns it has, especially since the chassis also allows for Vindicators, Predators and Razorbacks (all of which are easily picked up in identical fashion via Thunderhawk, as has been said).

Aside from tradition (which is probably a huge reason as to why SM use the chassis) the fact that if a Rhino breaks down during a vital extraction/advance, it can be fixed much faster than a Chimera probably matters more to them, what with their often-isolated, surgical approach to battle.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rhino#.UjqxsoaQnao

hope this helps

Out-of-universe, the Rhino was the first plastic vehicle that GW made. A long, long time ago, in the Rogue Trader era. And EVERYONE used it. Marines, Guard, SoB, Arbites, Inquistors, PDF, Jimmy the pizza delivery boy, everyone. To the point where they were described as ubiquitos, due to being such a proven STC.

Then, some time in 2nd edition (or possibly the version of Epic which was roughly coincident), it came time for the first Guard codex, and they decided that the Guard should have an IFV rather than an APC. The Chimera was born. (incidentally, I don't know where people are getting that the Chimera is unreliable. As anther STC design, it's also pretty damn solid)

So, it split off - Marines (and SoBs) got RH1 NO chassis vehicles, Guard got Chimera chassis vehicles.

In universe, I like to think that the Rhino is still pretty darn ubiquitous, and that the Arbites etc. are still using them, along with the Marines, Inquisition and SoBs. The question becomes "why are the Guard NOT using these things". Then it comes down to doctrine - The guard have decided that for armoured infantry, they want IFVs. If you're not armoured infantry, you can walk.

I like to think that behind the lines of a Guard army, there's a fair number of Rhinos tooling about, carrying headquarters staff, commisars, message runners, hot chocolate, ammunition, infantry reserves, entire companys that will be dismounted before combat and their transports sent to the rear, and that nobody in the guard is fool enough to take a bullet magnet APC near an actual firefight.

If you're wearing upward of an inch of metal plate and are pretty confident of being able to claw your way out to the smouldering remains of your transport, taking an APC near a firefight MIGHT make a degree of sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively, for the Guard it may also be a logistical excercise - if we want any armoured infantry to be in Chimeras, let's put everything on a Chimera chassis to have commonality of spare parts. Everyone else uses Rhinos, but that would mean the guard need to keep an addtional logistical chain going.

Back in the early days of epic scale the chimera didn't exist, Predators had the same stats as Leman Russes and all arms of the Imperium used Rhinos as their standard transport.

This was mainly because at the time all the studio work had gone into the Marine side of things. When they fleshed out the Guard as a properly set up game-usable force they came up with new vehicles and new intepretations of existing vehicles.

By that point the Rhino was a solid fixture as part of Marine forces and had already been set as the standard chassis.

Also seeing as Marines are already pretty much walking tanks toting fully automatic armour piercing RPG launchers, why should they need a transport that is anything other than a metal box on tracks designed to get them to where they need to be a bit faster.

Ailaros wrote:Sure, but if the imperial guard, who can't make or maintain their own vehicles get the expensive and difficult to maintain transports, while the space marines, who CAN make and maintain their own vehicles, are stuck using crappy stuff that's easy to repair...
... well, you have the opposite of what should be happening.

Nah. I'm with Grey Templar on this one.

The Imperial Guard has a much better ability to maintain and repair their vehicles in the field than the Astartes, because a regiment or battle group will always have a sort of command post with barracks and various facilities somewhere you can drag broken tanks to for the accompanying Enginseers to take a look at. The Space Marines, on the other hand, can't afford this. Their highly mobile style of warfare and small size means that a single APC breaking down could easily mean 10% of your army won't reach the spot they're needed at, whilst for the Imperial Guard it doesn't really matter if two or three Chimaeras get stuck; they've got several dozen squads more to take their place, and that is only one part of the regiment. They'll salvage what they can and try to fix it back at the base.

So, the Space Marines need something that is more reliable and easy to repair in the field, meaning very likely without a Techmarine nearby. They need something that almost fixes itself with minimal assistance from the crew. And that something is the Rhino.

It's also a matter of historical importance and tradition, though, so you actually have two factors in favour of the Rhino. WD #269 went a little into detail regarding this subject. Short excerpt:

"Throughout the galaxy, servants of the Emperor take fire and steel to the enemies of Humanity, borne across the hell of uncounted battlefields in armoured fighting vehicles known as Rhinos. These blessed vehicles carry the warriors of the Emperor safely through the inferno of shot and shell to bring the Emperor's fiery retribution upon His enemies. The Rhino has been in Imperial service for over ten thousand years, and the origins of this faithful vehicle lie in the depths of Humanity's past, at the beginning of its expansion into space. [...]

Mankind's expansion into space leapt forwards as starships became capable of reaching further and further into the galaxy. Humanity entered a golden age of exploration and colonisation, and it seemed as though nothing could halt the expansion of Humanity's realm. In conjunction with this, early colonisation of newly discovered worlds was facilitated by the creation of the RH1 N0 Tracked Exploration and Multi Defence vehicle - commonly referred to as the Rhino. At its most basic level, the Rhino is an armoured transport on tracks, designed to cope with all manner of hostile environments and cross almost any dangerous terrain while protecting those within. The efficiency of the design has resulted in the basic configuration of the Rhino remaining largely unchanged in the last ten thousand years. Capable of being constructed from almost any materials and powered by any partially combustible fuel, the Rhino has proven time and time again to be one of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever devised. [...]

Soon, the Rhino became the standard transport vehicle of human armies across the galaxy, with differing variants falling in and out of favour as the nature of Man's enemies and battlefields changed. The armies of Mankind spread throughout the galaxy, and many hundreds of worlds were brought within this growing galactic empire. As more enemies were encountered, the STC systems provided these early armies with many different variants of the Rhino such as the Predator, Immolator and Whirlwind. All this was to come to an end, however, in a period now known as the Age of Strife. [...]

As knowledge of their construction faded from memory, attrition took its toll on the number of Rhinos throughout the galaxy. The rituals of maintenance became debased as the centuries passed and knowledge of the exact workings of the Rhinos passed into myth. Among those who retained the priceless knowledge of their construction were the Techmarines of the newly created Legiones Astartes and the Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who established strict guidelines regarding the construction, consecration and maintenance of these valuable vehicles. Whether built in the Martian weapon-forges of the Adeptus Mechanicus or the fortress monasteries of the Space Marines, the builders of these holy vehicles know that the purity and spiritual welfare of the Rhino is as important as the skill of the artificers who construct it. Over the millennia, scattered pieces of STC lore have been recovered, and ancient designs have slowly been reincorporated into the Imperial inventory. The Immolator tank used by the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas is one such example, the databank containing its construction details discovered within an ancient factory complex on the world of Fornoth during the Icaria Crusade. [...]

Besides the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, only a select few Imperial organisations now have access to Rhinos, the priceless technology involved in their construction and maintenance is too valuable to be entrusted to any but the most loyal and steadfast bodies of warriors. The Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Arbites in particular have a number of Rhinos, and they maintain a body of those sanctified and pure of heart to care for them. Years of training go towards achieving this respected position. Aspirants must learn how to divine the runes of engineering, memorise the liturgy of maintenance and constantly study the routine of service. It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of these armoured transports are mindful of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one. Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle, it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. [...]

Rhinos can be salvaged and are brought back to the forge to have each wound reverently repaired by skilled artificers, the battle scars worn with pride and their war-spirits honoured with the Litanies of Battle. As a result, many Rhinos have remained in service for thousands of years, becoming holy relics amongst the Chapters of Space Marines and other Imperial servants who rely on them. The oldest Rhino in existence belongs to the Salamanders, and is known as Nocturne's Hammer. The Salamanders tell that it carried their legendary Primarch, Vulkan, into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying cut through the gates of the Imperial fortress to attack the foe. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honour in the Chapter's reliquary on Prometheus, its armoured hide scarred by millennia of war. [...]

The Rhino continues to serve as the mainstay of many Imperial organisations, and it is unlikely to be superseded without the discovery of a functioning STC database that will enable Imperial servants to further refine and improve on its design. Until that day, the faithful Rhino will continue to carry the warriors of the Emperor into battle, proof against the weapons of their foes and ready to bring the wrath of the Master of Mankind upon the blasphemous enemies. "

 Kain wrote:
I think they later retconned it by saying that Chimeras aren't a comfortable or easy fit for the eight foot tall quarter ton space marines.

Then again Henchmen Chimeras can fit Terminators.

Indeed.

The only reason a Chimera can actually carry Space Marines and Terminators with no issue is probably because of a rules loophole.

And the only way its possible for a Marine of any kind to get in a Chimera is the GK Codex.


If Chimeras were going to be a possible transport for Marines GW would have probably had a rule where PA counts as 2 spaces in the Chimera and TDA counts as 4 or something. But as now there is no way outside the GK codex for Marines to embark in a Rhino its a moot point.