Warhammer Online v. World of Warcraft: What Went Wrong?

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**ZebioLizard2**

Kanluwen wrote:
purplefood wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
Also didn't help that they butchered the Warhammer setting (Male DE Sorcerers, Goblin Squigs mechanic.....).

There was no Male DE sorcerers, they were exclusively female along with the khainite assassins.

There were Male DE sorcerers.

And they exist in the lore as well. They are just not common nor are they generally used by the various Houses because of the whole Malekith prophecy thing.

They even have a few older models for them.

**Pacific**

Hmm.. if I had to name the most important factor, possibly just because WoW was much more fun?

And this..

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
WOW can also be played on less than optimal computers. The main reason I never was able to stick with WAR was because I never had a computer that could run it decently.

**Ahtman**

Pacific wrote:
Hmm.. if I had to name the most important factor, possibly just because WoW was much more fun?

But it wasn't. WoW isn't even a little more fun, really. The biggest factors that I hear are that it was rushed out (glitches, missing content) and system requirements. Even with it's problems I would still play WAR over WoW if that were our only choices.

**Madcat87**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
purplefood wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
Also didn't help that they butchered the Warhammer setting (Male DE Sorcerers, Goblin Squigs mechanic.....).

There was no Male DE sorcerers, they were exclusively female along with the khainite assassins.

There were Male DE sorcerers.

And they exist in the lore as well. They are just not common nor are they generally used by the various Houses because of the whole Malekith prophecy thing.

They even have a few older models for them.

People need to understand that when you create an MMO from an established IP some allowances must be made with things like character creation and racial alliances in order to make the game playable.

Lorewise prior to WoW only male night elves could be druids and only female night elves could be priests. Infact I think males could only be druids while women took on every other role in society. Racial Alliances is another aspect that most conform because Games Workshop's everyone hates everyone else philosophy is too difficult and too risky to pull off in an MMO.

**BaronIveagh**

My understanding is that what torpedoed WAR had more to do with their new masters, EA, than any decisions Mythic made. The game was unfinished when it shipped, but ship it would, despite the protests of Mythics' devs, because EA said to. So several entire cities that were supposed to be in the game never materialized.

TOR came out and it became clear that EA management didn't learn a thing the first time. Even including billing bugs (though with TOR it was the inability to Unsubscribe).

I'll point out that crafting between TOR and WAR had a startling number of similarities, and both were implemented badly.

Sadly, I have reupped once a year, every year, for the holidays, to try one more time to get that damn backpack that throws beer. I've never gotten it.

Since, it hasn't been mentioned: the server shutdown notice:

Reflections on my experiences with Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning
Carrie Gouskos, Producer

I was first introduced to Warhammer Online, when it was added last minute to GameSpot.com’s E3 2006 stage show. As one of the hosts of the show, my responsibility was to research the game and the franchise, gather questions from the audience, and give a thoughtful informative interview with whomever had been sent over from the development team.

I never could have anticipated what happened next. Jeff Hickman (Executive Producer) and Paul Barnett (Creative Director) gave one of the most memorable interviews in my career – and suddenly I was thrown into their universe. The online chat channel soliciting questions from the viewing public was spammed with directives like “No more questions, just let them keep talking” – which is not surprising if you’re at all familiar with Jeff Hickman’s indefatigable charisma and Paul Barnett’s passionate humor. The tone, candor, and refreshing quality of how they spoke about this game that they so clearly cared about made you just want to be a part of it. What was more surprising, however, was what followed – a large group of developers, perhaps delirious after three days of non-stop game demos, partly exhilarated by the positive response to the game, showed up at the GameSpot booth and invited me to their studio E3 party. I declined, because they scared me a little bit, but in retrospect it’s not hard to imagine how I ended up – three months later as a designer working at Mythic on Warhammer.

I made an offhanded comment the other day to someone on the Warhammer team that I spent six of the last seven years of my life working on Warhammer. There were breaks in there, but most of them still related to Warhammer in some way. Some aspects of these efforts never saw the light of day. For example, we completed, passed review, and ultimately opted not to release an iPhone companion application that would allow players to monitor the realm war and their guild status – three whole years before the studio decided to take mobile by its horns. We also spent over a year on a version aimed at the Asian markets that would convert the entire game free-to-play. The Vampire themed Blood Hunt expansion would have been a marvel. And in under a year we produced a spin-off product Wrath of Heroes, a MOBA-style game that used mostly Warhammer assets – which despite being a tremendous learning experience, never made it out of Beta. There are many memories like this, ones that I feel comfortable sharing now – including the fact that we do have two of the four remaining fully built cities (Karaz-A-Karak and Karak Eight Peaks which are truly truly beautiful but would take months and months of optimization before they could match the changes we made to the game along the way). And one of the greatest lessons I ever learned as the young unpolished Tome of Knowledge designer “Never put anything in the game that isn’t done yet and hint that it’s coming soon – see: The Cards system”. There were some beautiful ideas that were left on the cutting room floor. And they represent only a fraction of how much heart went into the game.

Most everything else made it, and Warhammer despite its flaws was a valiant effort into the MMO space. I don’t think any of its critics would ever call it boring. It struck out boldly, and some of the game’s novel features are now considered industry standard for MMOs. The credit goes to far too many to list it out here, and it’s almost irrelevant. The point is that some of the most talented people in gaming made Warhammer possible. They worked insanely long hours, and they put their heart and soul into trying to make this beautiful IP a living and breathing universe. World class artists. Genius engineers. Designers and content implementers who would put in 100 hours a week and not complain. Hard-ass producers who you would follow into battle anywhere. Writers that truly transported you. QA that wouldn’t let us get away with a thing. And so many others. For those that are still with Mythic and those that have since moved on, we couldn’t have asked for a more driven team dedicated to bringing this amazing franchise to life.

And finally, the players. If I were to list out all of the great experiences I’ve had with you, this would be a novel, so I want to say thank you from all of us to all of you for sticking with us so long. Even when you didn’t like the changes, even if you thought we made mistakes. The community made this game possible. And a special shout out to Pink for Tink – which was truly the measure of a community coming together to do something right.
Games Workshop has cultivated a world class IP. We were lucky enough to play in their universe for nearly a decade, with five great long years live. However, like all things – our contract has come to an end. Both Games Workshop and Mythic agreed to part ways, despite how hard it is emotionally on us to let the game go. It has been a tremendous honor to work with Games Workshop and even though we may be parting ways, our relationship with them remains strong. And now, hopefully, because this may be the last thing I ever write about Warhammer, I’ll be allowed to acknowledge the existence of Chaos Dwarves. Or maybe not.

We look forward to seeing you on the battlefield… at least until the war is over… and once again, we thank you humbly for five amazing years.

Apparently they're closing it due to GW refusing to renew the license.

In a way, I feel kind of sad. My swordie was one of the few fantasy MMO characters I had ever bothered with, really, and WAR isn't a game we're likely to see a big surge of pirate servers for, unlike, say, Ragnarok Online, the MMO that will never die.

Edit: to say that the closure has a mixed reaction in Bioware's forums is an understatement. The two lead questions are: What took so long? and Anyone know any private servers?

**mondo80**

The game was doomed when:

They said "WAR will kill WoW"
They released the game 2 days before (or was it after?) Wraith of the Lich King
They introduced pvp scenarios, taking away any reason to do the open pvp parts of the game
They made a piss-poor crafting system with nothing of any real worth to craft
They aligned all the races into a horde vs alliance setup
They were bought by EA (Elitist Azzholes), they killed Earth and Beyond (which had seamless transition from space to ground and walking in space stations) and used its servers for the Sims Online (which became a giant redlight city), they BARELY support any of their games and Origin SUCKS!!!!!

Sorry about the last one, got carried away.

They didn't go F2P, which may have helped it survive and possible thrive. Look at DnD online, Champions Online, STO and many others for examples.

**BaronIveagh**

mondo80 wrote:
The game was doomed when:

They said "WAR will kill WoW"

Everyone says thier game is hte WoW killer. Particularly MMOs from EA.

mondo80 wrote:

They made a piss-poor crafting system with nothing of any real worth to craft

Potions were worthwhile, particularly when grinding.

mondo80 wrote:

They aligned all the races into a horde vs alliance setup

As a lot of DAoC palyers pointed otu this was a huge mistake. With two factions, the side outnumbered gets roflstomped. With three, there's usually an impromptu alliance to get the third party.

mondo80 wrote:

They were bought by EA (Elitist Azzholes), they killed Earth and Beyond (which had seamless transition from space to ground and walking in space stations) and used its servers for the Sims Online (which became a giant redlight city), they BARELY support any of their games and Origin SUCKS!!!!!

Sorry about the last one, got carried away.

They didn't go F2P, which may have helped it survive and possible thrive. Look at DnD online, Champions Online, STO and many others for examples.

These were all issues. However, the failure to go F2P is most likely one caused by GW. This was brought up many times, and IIRC the answer (before the forums were folded into Biowarre's) was that GW would not allow it.

**Ahtman**

They introduced pvp scenarios, taking away any reason to do the open pvp parts of the game

Except for all the bonuses your entire Faction got for controlling the realm, the realm PvP gear, and the bragging rights to say you razed Altdorf. Oh, and the guild bonuses for having your guild banner flying atop a fortress/castle. It was also fun to go out en masse to either reclaim or defend areas. PvP Scenarios were limited in number whereas the open pvp areas were not. If you haven't rolled up on a stronghold with 40 other orcs and goblins you haven't really lived.

**BaronIveagh**

Ahtman wrote:
They introduced pvp scenarios, taking away any reason to do the open pvp parts of the game

Except for all the bonuses your entire Faction got for controlling the realm, the realm PvP gear, and the bragging rights to say you razed Altdorf. Oh, and the guild bonuses for having your guild banner flying atop a fortress/castle. It was also fun to go out en masse to either reclaim or defend areas. PvP Scenarios were limited in number whereas the open pvp areas were not. If you haven't rolled up on a stronghold with 40 other orcs and goblins you haven't really lived.

My favorite moment was before the cap on numbers and the Pit of Shades spam. The final keep before Altdorf, we loaded in some many tanks on the stairs with healers spamming group heals that it was insane. I've never lost and gained as many HP as I did that way.

**sebster**

If you open a restaurant that's exactly the same as McDonalds, but with the promise of a better hamburger, you better make sure you always deliver a hamburger that is better. Unforunately, WAR's improvements weren't really any better, as they were either poorly realised (keep weren't much fun after the novelty wore off, and didn't work at all once people realised defending them got you nothing), and public quests were basically raids with the wildly optimistic idea that you could achieve them with the help of people just wandering by. As a result the game seemed to end up as just screwing around, waiting for a spot in a portal battle thingie to open up.

Which made me realise that while objective based PvP games with distinct fantasy classes could be a blast, all the permanent world stuff in MMOs were never really that much fun. Game developers seemed to figure that out as well, which is why DOTA and LoL have basically dropped all the permanent world time sink stuff, and just gone straight to the fun stuff.

That said, one of my absolute favourite computing moments came from WAR, my friends and I were fighting in an RvR area and over time a small horde of other players had joined us and we'd all slaughtered the enemy enough that they'd fled the area. At which point my mate suggested to everyone that we go around and complete the region's public quests. We all headed off, and after a bit I detoured to avoid walking over the great big cliff between the PQ and our current position. After about a minute I realised no-one else followed me - on the mini map you can't see the cliff... I turned to my left just in time to see my mate run straight over the cliff, to be followed by a horde of lemmings - all plummeting to their doom.

**BaronIveagh**

sebster wrote:
Game developers seemed to figure that out as well, which is why DOTA and LoL have basically dropped all the permanent world time sink stuff, and just gone straight to the fun stuff.

Personally I really don't like either of those. I most enjoy exploring worlds. Which is why my occasion I rode OFF THE MAP (yes, I escaped from the map and managed to ride over the horizon and wandered around in grey dev land) in WAR was a blast. I found the Warhammer MOBA beta boring at best. There was no way for my character to have interesting adventures or get into weird situations. If I want to beat the snot out of someone online, I have Street Fighter and if I want to abuse myself in pubs, I have WoT.

**sebster**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Personally I really don't like either of those. I most enjoy exploring worlds. Which is why my occasion I rode OFF THE MAP (yes, I escaped from the map and managed to ride over the horizon and wandered around in grey dev land) in WAR was a blast. I found the Warhammer MOBA beta boring at best. There was no way for my character to have interesting adventures or get into weird situations. If I want to beat the snot out of someone online, I have Street Fighter and if I want to abuse myself in pubs, I have WoT.

Which is totally fair enough. I love exploring and finding new places and doing all sorts of weird nonsense as well, but personally I find those kinds of experiences best served in single player games where there's a lot more scope for developers to include stuff that rewards my screwing around... and where my friends aren't getting held up because I'm pretty sure you could get to the top of that rock over there.

Other times I like the kind of excitement you only get from playing against other people, and that's what I look to various PvP games for*, and ultimately what I found WAR delivered fairly well. It's just that, well, if that's what a game is good at then that's what players are going to come in to your game looking for, and all the rest is just going to be content you built that doesn't really attract players, or possibly even stuff you have to design your mechanics for that ends up compromising the part of your design that actually really works.

I mean, WAR having levelling mechanics, and then auto-equalising everyone for the only part of the game that appeared to be regularly played just seemed kind of crazy to me.

I wonder if WOW as the 800lb gorilla that did everything and did it all well enough might end up being seen as a quirk of gaming history that never really gets repeated. From now on you'll see games focused on one of the things WoW did, looking to do that one part really well. Right now if you want to wander around a large world there's Skyrim, if you want raids you've got Guild Wars, if you want PvP instances you've got DOTA.

*Or at least, what I used to look to multiplayer for, I've got no time for any gaming these days.

**Maelstrom808**

I played for a couple years, and what finally did it for me (aside from the attrition of buddies quitting the game) was the epic failure that was endgame Open RVR, and the rage inducing rollercoaster ride of balancing they did with classes. Aside from those, I really enjoyed the game. My favorite bit was when my guild joined the game, we started a bunch of archmages (before they were turned into death dealing powerhouses) and would just lay waste by focus firing and dropping a couple dozen DoT's on people, all while healing/and rezzing each other up. Good times

**ZebioLizard2**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
I played for a couple years, and what finally did it for me (aside from the attrition of buddies quitting the game) was the epic failure that was endgame Open RVR, and the rage inducing rollercoaster ride of balancing they did with classes. Aside from those, I really enjoyed the game. My favorite bit was when my guild joined the game, we started a bunch of archmages (before they were turned into death dealing powerhouses) and would just lay waste by focus firing and dropping a couple dozen DoT's on people, all while healing/and rezzing each other up. Good times

Death dealing powerhouses? I seem to remember that they held no candle to the Firebomber squads of the AoE Fire Wizards.

**BaronIveagh**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Death dealing powerhouses? I seem to remember that they held no candle to the Firebomber squads of the AoE Fire Wizards.

He's talking having a few of them working together. One on one your right, but two on two, it goes to the elves because they can heal/res and Mythic made it so AoEs couldn't stack after a long run of Sorcs dominating RvR with stacked pit of shades.

**Orlanth**

LOTRO has a setting to exheed any other fantasy setting, because you cant outdo Tolkien, the game works and is f2p.

WOW is still bigger though, partly because its established, primarily because of its attitude though, everything in WOW, with exception of the playerbase is relaxed, cartoony and doesnt take itself seriously. I think LOTRO is a far better game for that reason, but toons have their own appeal that fits the game.

WAR couldnt make its mind up if it was serious or not, and thus doesnt fit right with most players.

**Slarg232**

Madcat87 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
purplefood wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
Also didn't help that they butchered the Warhammer setting (Male DE Sorcerers, Goblin Squigs mechanic.....).

There was no Male DE sorcerers, they were exclusively female along with the khainite assassins.

There were Male DE sorcerers.

And they exist in the lore as well. They are just not common nor are they generally used by the various Houses because of the whole Malekith prophecy thing.

They even have a few older models for them.

People need to understand that when you create an MMO from an established IP some allowances must be made with things like character creation and racial alliances in order to make the game playable.

Lorewise prior to WoW only male night elves could be druids and only female night elves could be priests. Infact I think males could only be druids while women took on every other role in society. Racial Alliances is another aspect that most conform because Games Workshop's everyone hates everyone else philosophy is too difficult and too risky to pull off in an MMO.

If "Everyone hates Everyone" is too risky to pull off in an MMO, why is Planetside 2 doing so well?

**BaronIveagh**

Slarg232 wrote:

If "Everyone hates Everyone" is too risky to pull off in an MMO, why is Planetside 2 doing so well?

Same reason World of Tanks is: they're shooters with an MMO skin (much the same with Dust, but it has another game it plugs into where the players in that game pay and equip the players in Dust.). I don';t know about Planetside, but I will say that WoT and it's various offshoots don't really have much 'community', either. The mods on their forums work overtime with the sheer amount of trolling and elitism runs rampant in ways that most MMOs can only imagine.

**Slarg232**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:

If "Everyone hates Everyone" is too risky to pull off in an MMO, why is Planetside 2 doing so well?

Same reason World of Tanks is: they're shooters with an MMO skin (much the same with Dust, but it has another game it plugs into where the players in that game pay and equip the players in Dust.). I don';t know about Planetside, but I will say that WoT and it's various offshoots don't really have much 'community', either. The mods on their forums work overtime with the sheer amount of trolling and elitism runs rampant in ways that most MMOs can only imagine.

Ok, what about Shadowbane (Pretty much the sole reason PVP servers exist), where it's literally "If they aren't in your group, and their not in your Clan, they are here to kill you". That game lasted quite a while, for a good portion of it's life as a Free To Play Ad based game.

**LordofHats**

Slarg232 wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:

If "Everyone hates Everyone" is too risky to pull off in an MMO, why is Planetside 2 doing so well?

Same reason World of Tanks is: they're shooters with an MMO skin (much the same with Dust, but it has another game it plugs into where the players in that game pay and equip the players in Dust.). I don';t know about Planetside, but I will say that WoT and it's various offshoots don't really have much 'community', either. The mods on their forums work overtime with the sheer amount of trolling and elitism runs rampant in ways that most MMOs can only imagine.

Ok, what about Shadowbane (Pretty much the sole reason PVP servers exist), where it's literally "If they aren't in your group, and their not in your Clan, they are here to kill you". That game lasted quite a while, for a good portion of it's life as a Free To Play Ad based game.

Eve Online is a modern example. There is no side but your own, even in the corporations a lot of the time.

**dementedwombat**

Question: why is a free to play model such a good thing? I would personally rather just pay a flat monthly bill and be on an equal footing with everyone else as opposed to being nickle and dimed for "the good equipment" I need to actually compete (because every serious player will have it anyway).

Then again, I play EVE Online and think it's the best game ever, so I guess my expectations of what an MMO should be are kind of different than a lot of people.

**BaronIveagh**

LordofHats wrote:

Eve Online is a modern example. There is no side but your own, even in the corporations a lot of the time.

Eve Online isn't a traditional mmo though either. Point of fact, it actively encourages the sort of behavior that gets you banned in other games, such as running cons, theft, TKing, market manipulation, price gouging, protection rackets, gambling, monopolies, slavery, etc. This IS the game that has such a low level of trust between players, other players, and the company, that the players have an elected body that flies to Iceland every year to ensure that CCP is not rigging the game in favor of one group or another. Which they have been caught doing in the past.

Even better, this same player council has lost members for attempting to get large player alliances to harass individuals in an attempt to get them to commit suicide. (Point of fact, the late 'vilerat' who was killed in the Libyan Embassy attack was implicated in this idiocy. His boss TheMittani was tossed out of the CSM for heading it).

There's also the problem that, while there are a large number of subscriptions, there is a small number of actual players. Partially this is due to the three toon limit with only one training skills, and partially due to the fact that you cannot trust your fellow players, so they multibox to get things done like mine, PvE, and even PvP, so the subscription numbers are misleading as to the actual player base. Most of the corps I used to hang with had players with between five and 30 accounts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dementedwombat wrote:

Then again, I play EVE Online and think it's the best game ever, so I guess my expectations of what an MMO should be are kind of different than a lot of people.

... as someone who played since beta: because we are diseased individuals, dementedwombat. I stopped playing eve when I realized that most decent human beings had left, and the ones that stayed were, by and large, either clueless, noobs, alts, or ruthless donkey-caves.

**LordofHats**

Question: why is a free to play model such a good thing?

Cause it's free.

I would personally rather just pay a flat monthly bill and be on an equal footing with everyone else as opposed to being nickle and dimed for "the good equipment" I need to actually compete (because every serious player will have it anyway).

Not all free to play games are like that. Certainly F2P games struggle with a negative reputation because of games that were and still are like that. I'll cite GW2 and STO as examples of games that are very strong in the F2P models;

GW2 and STO primarily sell convenience items from their stores. Things you'd be more than happy to pay for to have but don't need to have to be as good a player as anyone else in most cases. GW2 sells costumes, mini-pets, exp boosters, and numerous cosmetic items (as well as name changes and make over kits). Mostly, these confer no real advantage. Leveling is quick in GW2, you can easily reach 80 in a week of normal play and will have identical access to end game gear and skills. Those who pay do not win simply by virtue of paying *glares at Shattered Galaxy.*

STO is slightly different. Some of the most powerful ships in the game are bought through the Zen Store. The B'Rel Bird of Prey, the Romulan Dreadnought, Fleet ship modules. Think is that even people who never pay a penny can acquire these items with a little extra work as Dilithium is acquired in game and can be traded for Zen to be used in the Zen Store. Nothing stops an enterprising player from gathering up all the Zen they'll ever need in game and then spending that to get what other people pay $20 to $50.

The biggest 'problem' in these games is that there are people who might work very hard to get an item using resources they gathered in game, while there are others who get them by paying a few bucks with no work and that's fine. Everyone can play the way that works best for them. Grind to your hearts content, or just get that new ship with a few bucks and enjoy it instead of spending your limited entertainment time grinding away to get it. Since most of the items are just convenience or cosmetic in GW2, they don't really matter.

In STO, I think this was finally broken by how very powerful the Romulan Dreadnoughts were (give me all the strengths of a Bird of Prey and carrier Cruiser in one platform please!), but STO was never really designed to be a PVP game. Besides, anyone can get that ship if they put in the time (5000 Zen can be obtained in two or three weeks by an intrepid player). There's usually enough time between releases of new stuff that you can get all the Zen you'll need before it even comes out!

Then again, I play EVE Online and think it's the best game ever, so I guess my expectations of what an MMO should be are kind of different than a lot of people.

I too appreciate EVE. It's a game that knows exactly what it wants to do, run by a company that has a good grasp on how to do it and a player base that loves what it provides. Unfortunately its greatest strengths are also its greatest weaknesses. EVE is not an easy game to learn to play or master, and it's basic structure just isn't for everyone. I just couldn't keep with the game myself because when I moved on to low sec space the constant fear of being blown to bits and literally losing everything on me, while exciting in a way no other game can match, was just too much stress XD I want to relax in my games, not fly in constant fear of pirates dropping in on me and blowing my hard earned cruiser to bits! Eve involves a serious time investment beyond the typical MMO (and this is why its pay to play model is perfectly strong for it!) but yeah. I don't think its for everyone.

**Maelstrom808**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
I played for a couple years, and what finally did it for me (aside from the attrition of buddies quitting the game) was the epic failure that was endgame Open RVR, and the rage inducing rollercoaster ride of balancing they did with classes. Aside from those, I really enjoyed the game. My favorite bit was when my guild joined the game, we started a bunch of archmages (before they were turned into death dealing powerhouses) and would just lay waste by focus firing and dropping a couple dozen DoT's on people, all while healing/and rezzing each other up. Good times

Death dealing powerhouses? I seem to remember that they held no candle to the Firebomber squads of the AoE Fire Wizards.

I don't know when you played, but they seriously ramped up the AM damage aspect at one point, and mixed with the life leeching as part of that, they became one of the best solo classes out there. The only classes that really caused any problems for me were the WE, DoK, and maybe choppas...and those really depended on who's cooldowns were burned. In group RVR, they were best for maintenance healing and focus firing. BW still caused ridiculous AoE casualties, but AMs were hands down one of the best 1v1 classes.

**Ahtman**

EVE online is just a spreadsheet with a prettier interface than Excel.

**LordofHats**

Ahtman wrote:
EVE online is just a spreadsheet with a prettier interface than Excel.

Aren't all RPG's

**Ahtman**

LordofHats wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
EVE online is just a spreadsheet with a prettier interface than Excel.

Aren't all RPG's

Some more than others, in the case of EVE, the illusion is very, very thin. It was like working on working on project in Excel on a computer with a Hubble telescope picture rotating in the background.

**BaronIveagh**

Ahtman wrote:

Some more than others, in the case of EVE, the illusion is very, very thin. It was like working on working on project in Excel on a computer with a Hubble telescope picture rotating in the background.

And the occasional donkey-cave trying to alter the numbers while you are not looking, and every so often the IT guy comes along and smashes up your computer and offers to sell you a new one.

**HiveFleetPlastic**

dementedwombat wrote:
Question: why is a free to play model such a good thing?

What's really powerful about the f2p model is the realisation (and this applies to meatspace FLGS too, interestingly) that people playing the game is, itself, valuable. A multiplayer game is pointless without others to play with. f2p provides a great bounty of free players who make the game fun and worthwhile for the people who actually will spend money, even if those free players never end up spending money themselves.

Planetside 2 was brought up, and that's a good example. As someone who's spent money on Planetside 2, I've benefited from the people who haven't, since they provide me with teammates and opponents that I wouldn't have otherwise.

On the flip side of the equation, you have the little indieish games on Steam that have a lot of trouble maintaining a multiplayer community in part because you have to buy into them.

f2p also makes people more likely to try the game out. That's helpful, especially when you want your friends to give the game a try. Then those players might go on to spend money as well.

It also kinda makes you less in direct competition with other subscription titles. Having subscriptions to multiple games feels wasteful, and people don't like to do it.

Regarding EVE vs WAR, they were really different games. EVE is a terrible game, but it's a great MMO. WoW is a good game but a pretty bad MMO. WAR was probably a slightly better MMO than WoW, but it was a worse game, and it had aspects like scenarios that undermined the MMO elements, and the MMO elements were badly flawed to begin with (like that huge spiel I wrote about keeps earlier).

It's hard to overstate how bad WoW is at being an MMO, though. For the most part, it just isn't - it's a small group dungeon crawler with a ridiculously elaborate lobby. Exploiting that weakness would definitely be a good way of differentiating your MMO, though it turns out making a good MMO is surprisingly hard and it's easy to throw pie in the sky ideas around that wouldn't necessarily work well when you tried to implement them.

**ZebioLizard2**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
I played for a couple years, and what finally did it for me (aside from the attrition of buddies quitting the game) was the epic failure that was endgame Open RVR, and the rage inducing rollercoaster ride of balancing they did with classes. Aside from those, I really enjoyed the game. My favorite bit was when my guild joined the game, we started a bunch of archmages (before they were turned into death dealing powerhouses) and would just lay waste by focus firing and dropping a couple dozen DoT's on people, all while healing/and rezzing each other up. Good times

Death dealing powerhouses? I seem to remember that they held no candle to the Firebomber squads of the AoE Fire Wizards.

I don't know when you played, but they seriously ramped up the AM damage aspect at one point, and mixed with the life leeching as part of that, they became one of the best solo classes out there. The only classes that really caused any problems for me were the WE, DoK, and maybe choppas...and those really depended on who's cooldowns were burned. In group RVR, they were best for maintenance healing and focus firing. BW still caused ridiculous AoE casualties, but AMs were hands down one of the best 1v1 classes.

Ah, I was still playing long before a few updates likely, I just remember when the best class was Sorc/Fire and they didn't even need tanks to keep them up, so they just firebombed everything in entire groups of fire wizards.