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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 21:40:39
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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It's not even slightly the same thing.
If it grants a special rule, then the special rule must abide by the special rules rule. Not the whole power.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:00:08
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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grendel083 wrote:It's not even slightly the same thing.
If it grants a special rule, then the special rule must abide by the special rules rule. Not the whole power.
So whilst this (singular) power is in effect, you're saying you can treat 1/2 the power cumulatively, and the other 1/2 as non cumulative?
and that makes sense to you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:02:17
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:08:30
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Happyjew wrote:Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
You'd just get the 1 stealth based on pg 32. are you suggesting you should have 2 stealth, because +1 +1 = +2?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:13:35
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Given that USR's can grant USR's and other special rules it seems that the psyker USR would grant the special rules pertaining to psychic powers. As such they are bound by the same rules.
As the rule states that only different powers may stack and it's obvious that the same psyker cannot cast the same power twice there are only two interpretations. Either different means different castings of any power including the same named power or different powers of different names.
As given the same payker cannot cast the same power twice the former interpretation is redundant. The latter becomes less of a leap od logic and makes more sense given that context.
Add to this many 6th edition powers have explicit written permission to stack while others do not.
So either they are allowed to stack and the redundant interpretation is correct with redundant reminders on inly some psychic powers or they are not allowed to stack unless they are a different named power or have explicit permission to stack.
Given all this and the lack of convincing argument otherwise I'm inclined to say they are not allowed to stack unless they are different named powers or have explicit permission to stack.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:15:55
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
You'd just get the 1 stealth based on pg 32. are you suggesting you should have 2 stealth, because +1 +1 = +2?
Not at all, because Stealth (unlike Psychic Powers) is a special rule and per page 32 cannot stack with itself. However, would I have:
a) Stealth and Shrouded
b) Stealth and Hit & Run
c) Stealth, Shrouded, Hit & Run
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:55:38
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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sirlynchmob wrote: grendel083 wrote:It's not even slightly the same thing.
If it grants a special rule, then the special rule must abide by the special rules rule. Not the whole power.
So whilst this (singular) power is in effect, you're saying you can treat 1/2 the power cumulatively, and the other 1/2 as non cumulative?
and that makes sense to you?
That singular power can have multiple effects.
It can apply both modifiers and grant special rules.
Yes it makes sense, makes a lot of sense.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:56:41
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
You'd just get the 1 stealth based on pg 32. are you suggesting you should have 2 stealth, because +1 +1 = +2?
Not at all, because Stealth (unlike Psychic Powers) is a special rule and per page 32 cannot stack with itself. However, would I have:
a) Stealth and Shrouded
b) Stealth and Hit & Run
c) Stealth, Shrouded, Hit & Run
C obviously, but that is not an apt comparison. Going with stealth though is stealth the same as or different from stealth (ruins) Since they have different names do they get +1 cover from stealth and +1 cover for being in a ruin? 1+1=2 after all. one's a SR, the other is a warlord trait how much more different can you get?
If we don't accept that logic with stealth why accept it for enfeeble?
enfeeble does 2 things as part of 1 power, it doesn't grant two different things. It grants A(-1TS) AND B( DT) So a second enfeeble would be what exactly?
AABB? but B is definitely a special rule which seems to be agreed to by both sides so it doesn't stack with itself. so then;
AAB? that doesn't look right, it either stacks or it doesn't, not just 1/2.
AB? It's just 1 power that while in effect does 2 things, and Since it is granting a SR, it doesn't stack with itself. It's granting the enfeeble special rule that does just AB
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 22:59:27
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
You'd just get the 1 stealth based on pg 32. are you suggesting you should have 2 stealth, because +1 +1 = +2?
Not at all, because Stealth (unlike Psychic Powers) is a special rule and per page 32 cannot stack with itself. However, would I have:
a) Stealth and Shrouded
b) Stealth and Hit & Run
c) Stealth, Shrouded, Hit & Run
C obviously, but that is not an apt comparison. Going with stealth though is stealth the same as or different from stealth (ruins) Since they have different names do they get +1 cover from stealth and +1 cover for being in a ruin? 1+1=2 after all. one's a SR, the other is a warlord trait how much more different can you get?
If we don't accept that logic with stealth why accept it for enfeeble?
enfeeble does 2 things as part of 1 power, it doesn't grant two different things. It grants A(-1TS) AND B( DT) So a second enfeeble would be what exactly?
AABB? but B is definitely a special rule which seems to be agreed to by both sides so it doesn't stack with itself. so then;
AAB? that doesn't look right, it either stacks or it doesn't, not just 1/2.
AB? It's just 1 power that while in effect does 2 things, and Since it is granting a SR, it doesn't stack with itself. It's granting the enfeeble special rule that does just AB
You know what, forget my whole wargear thing. I completely forgot where I was going with it.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 23:01:06
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:Let's try another example. I have a piece of wargear that grants stealth and Hit & Ruin. The same model has a piece of wargear that grants stealth and shrouded. Do I benefit from both? Why or why not?
You'd just get the 1 stealth based on pg 32. are you suggesting you should have 2 stealth, because +1 +1 = +2?
Not at all, because Stealth (unlike Psychic Powers) is a special rule and per page 32 cannot stack with itself. However, would I have:
a) Stealth and Shrouded
b) Stealth and Hit & Run
c) Stealth, Shrouded, Hit & Run
C obviously, but that is not an apt comparison. Going with stealth though is stealth the same as or different from stealth (ruins) Since they have different names do they get +1 cover from stealth and +1 cover for being in a ruin? 1+1=2 after all. one's a SR, the other is a warlord trait how much more different can you get?
If we don't accept that logic with stealth why accept it for enfeeble?
enfeeble does 2 things as part of 1 power, it doesn't grant two different things. It grants A(-1TS) AND B( DT) So a second enfeeble would be what exactly?
AABB? but B is definitely a special rule which seems to be agreed to by both sides so it doesn't stack with itself. so then;
AAB? that doesn't look right, it either stacks or it doesn't, not just 1/2.
AB? It's just 1 power that while in effect does 2 things, and Since it is granting a SR, it doesn't stack with itself. It's granting the enfeeble special rule that does just AB
You know what, forget my whole wargear thing. I completely forgot where I was going with it.
You were trying to show how if you had 2 pieces of wargear doing 2 different things you'd end up only using 1/2 of one
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 23:24:36
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Abandon - I have permission to resolve each power in turn. There is nothing stating the powers themselves need to accumulate
I cast Enfeeble on the unit. I cast it again. I resolve both, getting -2
Pewrmission was granted, no denial has ever been found by you, and therefore your argument fails.
I see permission for it to be used twice... I don't see permission for them to be cumulative. As the BRB tells us what is cumulative, that means they are not. It's the same reason pistols are not Rapid Fire. The book does not say that they are, so they are not. Without permission from the rules Enfeeble is not cumulative with Enfeeble. Non-cumulatively, how many of the same blessing/malediction can be 'in effect' on a target?.... just one. One blessing/malediction 'in effect' means only one instance of its modifier(s) are applied. Please find and cite this 'permission granted' for same powers to accumulate.
Permission to use twice on the same target is insufficient. The ability to add more does not mean it's cumulative.
Modifiers stacking says nothing about the powers.
grendel083 wrote:Saying Psychic powers can GRANT Special Rules is not the same as saying Psychic powers ARE Special Rules.
Read what he wrote again...
I agree and I feel the same way about powers that grant modifiers. The powers are not themselves modifiers or SRs and are not governed by their rules so cumulative/non-cumulative cannot be determined by them.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 23:31:22
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Abandon wrote:grendel083 wrote:Saying Psychic powers can GRANT Special Rules is not the same as saying Psychic powers ARE Special Rules.
Read what he wrote again...
I agree and I feel the same way about powers that grant modifiers. The powers are not themselves modifiers or SRs and are not governed by their rules so cumulative/non-cumulative cannot be determined by them.
If it grants a Special Rule, then that special rule must follow the rules for special rules.
Modifiers must follow the rules for modifiers.
Nothing lets you ignore this.
Special rules are specifically forbidden from stacking, modifiers are not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/13 23:47:08
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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grendel083 wrote: Abandon wrote:grendel083 wrote:Saying Psychic powers can GRANT Special Rules is not the same as saying Psychic powers ARE Special Rules.
Read what he wrote again...
I agree and I feel the same way about powers that grant modifiers. The powers are not themselves modifiers or SRs and are not governed by their rules so cumulative/non-cumulative cannot be determined by them.
If it grants a Special Rule, then that special rule must follow the rules for special rules.
Modifiers must follow the rules for modifiers.
Nothing lets you ignore this.
Special rules are specifically forbidden from stacking, modifiers are not.
No permission for the powers first direct effect to be cumulative and the first thing it does is come 'into effect'.
A = Enfeeble in effect on the target(non-cumulative), Which causes B and C
B = modifiers(cumulative)
C = All terrain is difficult (non-cumulative by nature)
A + A + A + A = A ----> BC
Unless you have something that says the same 'powers in effect' are cumulative...
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:14:49
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Abandon, Page 2 says that the modifiers are cumulative.
You are allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on a target unit.
You are also allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on the same target unit with a different psyker.
Page 2 applies because both of these powers carry a -1 or +1 modifier, and as such, since there are two different castings on a single unit, they stack because Page 2 says they do.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:19:46
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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While I believe that all psychic powers stack (except when otherwise specified) I do see the opposition's point of view. The Pro side is basically saying (and this is just a general summation) psychic powers stack because modifiers stack. The Con side is saying two things. One, psychic powers don't stack because they are special rules. Two, psychic powers don't stack because they do not have permission to stack the effects.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 00:19:59
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:21:52
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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DeathReaper wrote:Abandon, Page 2 says that the modifiers are cumulative.
You are allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on a target unit.
You are also allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on the same target unit with a different psyker.
Page 2 applies because both of these powers carry a -1 or +1 modifier, and as such, since there are two different castings on a single unit, they stack because Page 2 says they do.
even if you ignore the first paragraph of my last post the rest explains the nonstacking argument clearly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:28:43
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bausk wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Abandon, Page 2 says that the modifiers are cumulative.
You are allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on a target unit.
You are also allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on the same target unit with a different psyker.
Page 2 applies because both of these powers carry a -1 or +1 modifier, and as such, since there are two different castings on a single unit, they stack because Page 2 says they do.
even if you ignore the first paragraph of my last post the rest explains the nonstacking argument clearly.
Except there is one issue with your previous post, this:
Bausk wrote:Given that USR's can grant USR's and other special rules it seems that the psyker USR would grant the special rules pertaining to psychic powers. As such they are bound by the same rules
Citation needed, because the rules do not say that. remember that different are cumulative does not mean the same power is not cumulative, and we have permission to cast it on a single unit multiple times.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:39:01
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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sirlynchmob wrote:
under resolving power
"unless otherwise stated the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative"
nosferatu1001 wrote:
The context is exactly what it states - in this case, contextually it is a reminder.
But you know that - we've been here before. You have no argument against that, you just repeat it hoping others will believe it.
How is that a reminder if it is not previously stated? You've said this often and I've never been clear on the basis.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:39:52
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Given that the psyker usr is tje only way to get powers I'm inclined to believe that powers are not standard rules that apply to everyone like movement does. Also given that I stated that evdn if you ignore the first patagraph the rest of the post is still valid on its own making light of it as the key failure of my argument is moot.
Nothing in my argument mentions page two because its not relevant until what grants the modifier is clarified as being able to have multiple instances of the same named power. The crux of this argument has nothing to do with modifiers or page two so further citations of it as permission will be considered as irrelevant until the first portion is clarified.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 00:51:06
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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DeathReaper wrote:Abandon, Page 2 says that the modifiers are cumulative.
You are allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on a target unit.
You are also allowed to cast enfeeble (Or hammerhand) on the same target unit with a different psyker.
Page 2 applies because both of these powers carry a -1 or +1 modifier, and as such, since there are two different castings on a single unit, they stack because Page 2 says they do.
A swing and a missed the point entirely... what do modifiers have to do with the number of Enfeebles in effect? That it grants a modifier after coming into effect means literally nothing to the point I made.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:
... remember that different are cumulative does not mean the same power is not cumulative, and we have permission to cast it on a single unit multiple times.
This part, the part in bold... means absolutely nothing to this debate and yet has been touted for 14 pagers now. The ability to add more of something does not mean that it is cumulative. Never has, never will. Those are entirely different aspects that in no way equal each other. Please look up the word cumulative as I've already quoted you the meaning from the Oxford dictionary but you seem completely unwilling to actually attempt to understand what I've been communicating.
Can add more ≠ Cumulative
Stop trying to use this as permission, it does not work that way and sounds more ridiculous every time someone says it dispute it being by definition, as I've pointed out many times, completely false.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 01:42:03
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 01:55:41
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Oxford Dictionary wrote:Cumulative: adjective
increasing or increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions
These two statements directly contradict each other...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 02:12:07
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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grendel083 wrote:
Oxford Dictionary wrote:Cumulative: adjective
increasing or increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions
These two statements directly contradict each other...
Incorrect.
One is the ability to add more the other is what happens when you add more. Not the same thing.
Edit: Conversely, if something is not cumulative, it will not 'increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions'. Either way it does not care if you can add successive additions, it only defines what happens when you do.
So if you tell me there are two Enfeebles on a unit I'd ask why you 'increased the quantity by successive additions' AKA treated them cumulatively.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 03:04:20
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 04:37:56
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote: ... remember that different are cumulative does not mean the same power is not cumulative, and we have permission to cast it on a single unit multiple times. This part, the part in bold... means absolutely nothing to this debate and yet has been touted for 14 pagers now. The ability to add more of something does not mean that it is cumulative. Never has, never will. Those are entirely different aspects that in no way equal each other. Please look up the word cumulative as I've already quoted you the meaning from the Oxford dictionary but you seem completely unwilling to actually attempt to understand what I've been communicating. Can add more ≠ Cumulative Stop trying to use this as permission, it does not work that way and sounds more ridiculous every time someone says it dispute it being by definition, as I've pointed out many times, completely false. It means everything. For instance, it means that two enfeebles (Or Hammerhands) are ion effect on the target unit. Then we look at what each one does, and Page 2, presto Stacking All RAW. You can ignore this as long as you want, but the fact still remains that there are two instances of the psychic power in effect on the same unit, and we have to resolve each one, luckily Page 2 tells us the rules on how to do so. you can ignore it, but you are being disingenuous by doing so. Thank you and good night, I am done, since your side is literally ignoring the rules, and keep doing so.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 04:38:17
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 05:06:20
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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DeathReaper wrote: Abandon wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
... remember that different are cumulative does not mean the same power is not cumulative, and we have permission to cast it on a single unit multiple times.
This part, the part in bold... means absolutely nothing to this debate and yet has been touted for 14 pagers now. The ability to add more of something does not mean that it is cumulative. Never has, never will. Those are entirely different aspects that in no way equal each other. Please look up the word cumulative as I've already quoted you the meaning from the Oxford dictionary but you seem completely unwilling to actually attempt to understand what I've been communicating.
Can add more ≠ Cumulative
Stop trying to use this as permission, it does not work that way and sounds more ridiculous every time someone says it dispute it being by definition, as I've pointed out many times, completely false.
It means everything.
For instance, it means that two enfeebles (Or Hammerhands) are ion effect on the target unit.
Then we look at what each one does, and Page 2, presto Stacking All RAW.
You can ignore this as long as you want, but the fact still remains that there are two instances of the psychic power in effect on the same unit, and we have to resolve each one, luckily Page 2 tells us the rules on how to do so.
you can ignore it, but you are being disingenuous by doing so.
Thank you and good night, I am done, since your side is literally ignoring the rules, and keep doing so.
(added bold to highlight the problem area)
Abandon wrote:So if you tell me there are two Enfeebles on a unit I'd ask why you 'increased the quantity by successive additions' AKA treated them cumulatively.
Is Enfeeble a modifier? No, it grants a modifiers among other things. Presto! It's not permitted to act cumulatively with other Enfeebles... Then why did "you 'increased the quantity by successive additions' AKA treated them cumulatively?" -shameless self quoting
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 05:16:47
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh
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It would be best if you approached this matter using mechanistic reductionism. my knowledge at this point is that same powers are not cumulative unless they state otherwise. The reason for this is because we are explicitly told that different powers are cumulative, but this isn't given for same powers. It can then be debated that rejection nor permission is given for same powers. But RAI from giving permission explicitly to different powers would mean that it is not the case for same powers. Which then leads to the main debate of the definition of "different". I personally believe that if two casters both do enfeeble on a unit and it is seen as different, then of course the modifiers stack because the power itself stacks.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 05:38:42
"Oh hello there Eldar and fellow brethren Space Marines, take a seat and let me play you the music of my people"- Band Slaanesh, the Rock and Roll of 40k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 05:27:39
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Ok lets put it this way. no one is disputing the rules of page two. As a matter of fact the rules on page two are perfectly accepted rukes for modifiers. however, we are not talking about modifiers. we are talking about psychic powers. so far all evidence presented indicates no stacking of powers of the same name (read as the same power) is permitted. no evidence outside of an iterpretation of 'different powers may stack' has been offered. again, page two is irrelevant in this discussion so please stop citing it as justification of stacking the same power. cite something relevant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 05:35:29
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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chillis wrote:It would be best if you approached this matter using mechanistic reductionism. Abandon and my viewpoint on this is in terms that same powers are not cumulative unless they state otherwise. The reason for this is because we are explicitly told that different powers are cumulative, but this isn't given for same powers. It can then be debated that rejection nor permission is given for same powers. But RAI from giving permission explicitly to different powers would mean that it is not the case for same powers. Which then leads to the main debate of the definition of "different". I personally believe that if two casters both do enfeeble on a unit and it is seen as different, then of course the modifiers stack because the power itself stacks.
-Abandon sorry if I may have put words in your mouth, I will delete/edit if need be.
I usually prefer not to be spoken for but I see nothing here misrepresenting my views. Perhaps I'll try breaking it down more tomorrow, getting late for me so I'm off for the night.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 07:54:21
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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chillis wrote:It would be best if you approached this matter using mechanistic reductionism. my knowledge at this point is that same powers are not cumulative unless they state otherwise. The reason for this is because we are explicitly told that different powers are cumulative, but this isn't given for same powers. It can then be debated that rejection nor permission is given for same powers. But RAI from giving permission explicitly to different powers would mean that it is not the case for same powers. Which then leads to the main debate of the definition of "different". I personally believe that if two casters both do enfeeble on a unit and it is seen as different, then of course the modifiers stack because the power itself stacks.
GW deffinition of same and different in this context has been discussed and as far as I am concerned solved (I think this was pretty much set, we moved away from this a long time ago). Same / different refers to the named Power, not the source, or other rules within BRB start breaking down and end up in a sticky gloopy mess. There are more than 1 instance can be brought forwards to prove this, you can search for the other 10 or so 15 page long threads on the subject, and have some kind of 'Spot the quotes' egg hunt. Or just trust me when I say we've been over and over and over this.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 08:01:38
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 08:03:39
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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So nem, you.are of the opinion that only different named powers have permission to stack or have their modifers cumulate?
Say in the case of two enfeebles from two psykers only one modifier is applied, or rather the second is sustaining the effect of enfeeble and not having the modifier accumulate?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 08:04:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/14 08:30:08
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Bausk wrote:So nem, you.are of the opinion that only different named powers have permission to stack or have their modifers cumulate?
Say in the case of two enfeebles from two psykers only one modifier is applied, or rather the second is sustaining the effect of enfeeble and not having the modifier accumulate?
I think I posted a few pages ago, on these threads I generally just lurk on this one and pop in and out with things I am sure of. The definitions of same / different being something I am sure of.
Personally I'm on the bench, I would be happy to play it either way. If I would put money on the FAQ outcome (Maybe I should be betting on IF we get anymore FAQ's eh  ) I would lean towards not stacking as a blanket (Not just Enfeeble). Based on my own unease around the fact stacking is never supported for the same power, and the use of wording throughout the BRB on abilities / rules / anything stacking- though I've pointed out before it's a pretty grey area. In nearly all instances we are given instruction into what does and does not stack.
Basically, yes I am of that opinion. All points brought up in these threads for and against are pretty watery and most of based on a certain length of assumption, which is probably why these threads won't go away  .
I agree Enfeeble in itself maybe a special case, we may be given the outcome of :some stack: in which case Enfeeble would not.
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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