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Sorry if this has been brought up before, but what about the haywire effect of Objuration Mechanicum?

Completly agree nem. Though its not just the brb. many 6th ed powers have specific permission to stack while others do not have this permission. If this wasn't the case the somewhat shady interpretation of 'different powers may stack' in the brb may hold water against the more plausable argument that they can't if they are the same named power without an exception in their respective rules. but still even with this the faq could turn it around and make all powers stack.

while its not 100% its as close as we are likely to get without an faq so I'm inclined to play with such powers not atacking unless they are differently named or the same with an exception in their rule.

So when you case Hammerhand a second time it just disappears?

The line around AABB reducing to AAB was correct - you have two different effects, one is a modifier the other a special rule. Due to the restriction on special rules you end up with a single USR, but two modifiers, and as per page 2 you use normal maths.

Oh, and HIWPI is stacking, as does 100% of all UK tournaments attended since 6th edition began - roughly 20, includign 100= players. Note I only play one army with psychic powers, and the only one that stacked was Hammerhand....

As far as I read it in the codex and faq hammer hand shouldn't stack. Might of Titan allows for accumulation with hammer hand expressly however. Both essentially apply the same effects though Might Of Titan has an additional effect and can be cast on other units. Its almost as if Ward was giving players a way of getting +2S without using the same power...No clearly he wanted GK players to either double stack Hammer Hand or Might of Titan. Mind you +2S, 3D6+S armour penetration sounds like ward. Wow even better; 2 Might of Titans and 1 Hammer Hand for +3S and 3D6+S armour penetration. Ward I salute you.

So what were we talking about? oh yes, how every one should clearly be playing GKs with two Libbys so they can roll S7 death and make a mockery of arrnour because clearly when they say "Different powers can stack" they ment to say "All powers, the same or different, may stack". And clearly the specifically mentioned allowances of powers to stack with themselves in some, but not all, powers is just a reminder and not an indication that some 100 odd players in 20 tounies Nos has been to have been wrong or mislead.

Or maybe they assumed you were stacking Hammer hand with Might of Titans, like it was intended that GKs have two +S powers with one specifically stating that it can stack with the other....

Hammerhand explicitly stacked through the entirety of the 5th edition codex. Shucks, guess youre wrong there. Maybe the removal of this reminder (as it was purely that - a reminder) from the FAQ when 6th edition rolled round is because they thought that having a section explicitly called MULTIPLE MODIFIERS would mean people would know how to handle multiple, er, modifiers.

No, of course it is just people being misled. Of course it is! OR, perhaps people see a reminder as just that, and dont just assume it means anything more. Especially when you are told how to handle multiple modifiers, and it just so happens to function exactly how you would it expect it to function.

No, instead you should be expected to take a convoluted, illogical (literally - going from A->B to B->A IS illogical) position, which randomly ignores page 2, has no basis either in the current or prior rules, and is such a sound position because....nope, got me stumped there.

Play a houserule if you like, currently I will play as per the rules on page 2 tells me to do - whcih is that unless told otherwise 1+1 = 2.

when 6th edition rolled round is because they thought that having a section explicitly called MULTIPLE MODIFIERS would mean people would know how to handle multiple, er, modifiers

What if you don't have multiple modifiers? You've yet to prove that you have multiple modifiers. Please just state the page and paragraph that states the same psychic power is cumulative with itself and then we have multiple modifiers so we can use page 2.

Shouldn't be a problem as you claim this is RaW.

So are we talking about 5th ed or 6th Nos? Frankly I'm discussing 6th. And my position of page two has been stated clearly...twice. And no, in the GK codex I looked up Hammer Hand and the funniest thing happened; It didn't say anything about being able to stack with itself. Admittedly I only looked at the librarian power list, that part that explains all the GK powers.

None the less. Lets discuss the grey areas that occur before we apply page two shall we? Like interpreting "Different powers may stack" and why only some 6th ed powers have specific statements about being able to stack and others don't?

Because that's where the root of the problem is, page two doesn't seem to resolve the issue of psychic powers. It is rather handy for the powers that can apply thier effects that are modifiers though. Just what powers can do that is still debatable however.

Also what are psychic powers is not special rules? Yes they are not USRs obviously but would anyone define them as basic rules like movement? They are inherently granted by one of two USRs which is only available in small or limited amounts, does this not warrant calling them special?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR, perhaps people see a reminder as just that, and dont just assume it means anything more.

Reminder of what? You keep repeating this, so I assume it makes some sense to you, but I honestly don't get it. Why on earth would anyone put in rules dealing with psychic powers in general a reminder that specifically different powers are cumulative, if they mean that all are? Is there some specific danger that people would forget that different powers are cumulative, whilst remembering just fine that same powers are cumulative? It just doesn't make any sense to write that. As I said earlier, it would make just as much sense to have a reminder that powers with letter 'e' in their name are cumulative, even though you meant that all powers are cumulative.

 Crimson wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR, perhaps people see a reminder as just that, and dont just assume it means anything more.

Reminder of what? You keep repeating this, so I assume it makes some sense to you, but I honestly don't get it. Why on earth would anyone put in rules dealing with psychic powers in general a reminder that specifically different powers are cumulative, if they mean that all are?

Let's be honest, if they didn't spell it out for people that the effects from different powers are cumulative, there would be some guy on this forum arguing you couldn't stack the effects of any 2 powers because the rulebook doesn't explicitly say you can.

Let's be honest, if they didn't spell it out for people that the effects from different powers are cumulative, there would be some guy on this forum arguing you couldn't stack the effects of any 2 powers because the rulebook doesn't explicitly say you can.

So why didn't they spell out the same powers stack? Why do they spell out in a few select powers that the power stacks with itself. They remind you 3 times that different powers stack which is a very bizarre thing to do if all powers stack.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR, perhaps people see a reminder as just that, and dont just assume it means anything more.

Reminder of what? You keep repeating this, so I assume it makes some sense to you, but I honestly don't get it. Why on earth would anyone put in rules dealing with psychic powers in general a reminder that specifically different powers are cumulative, if they mean that all are?

Let's be honest, if they didn't spell it out for people that the effects from different powers are cumulative, there would be some guy on this forum arguing you couldn't stack the effects of any 2 powers because the rulebook doesn't explicitly say you can.

And without the "whilst this power is in effect" line, there would be those that argue that the -1s/t is permanent.

This topic has repeated 3-4 times, gone 10+ pages each time, and been locked without resolution. No new information has been added to the discussion this time. The best you can do is follow the tournament FAQs where you play or discuss it with your opponent beforehand.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR, perhaps people see a reminder as just that, and dont just assume it means anything more.

Reminder of what? You keep repeating this, so I assume it makes some sense to you, but I honestly don't get it. Why on earth would anyone put in rules dealing with psychic powers in general a reminder that specifically different powers are cumulative, if they mean that all are?

Let's be honest, if they didn't spell it out for people that the effects from different powers are cumulative, there would be some guy on this forum arguing you couldn't stack the effects of any 2 powers because the rulebook doesn't explicitly say you can.

And without the "whilst this power is in effect" line, there would be those that argue that the -1s/t is permanent.

This topic has repeated 3-4 times, gone 10+ pages each time, and been locked without resolution. No new information has been added to the discussion this time. The best you can do is follow the tournament FAQs where you play or discuss it with your opponent beforehand.

That or get people to sign a petition supporting your viewpoint to submit to GW so they can address this issue, since GW is totally on the ball with community feedback and such.

But this issue has long lost any debating merits.

Bausk - I was responding to your claim about the design intent behind hammerhand.

You brought it up, I pointed out you were wrong. I am sorry that you feel so backed into a corner you cannot admit you were wrong - in your contention that HH was not designed to stack - and have to lash out with a statemetn about 6th, despite the codex being designed during 5th edition

You were not talking about 6th, you were determining whether it was intended to stack or not. I proved it was. Any chance of you acknowledging this error?

Crimson - and I have explained it, in other threads. I do not feel like reminding you of it here.

Enfeeble / HH / etc apply modifiers, according to the definition on page 2. We know how to apply multiple modifiers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Crimson - and I have explained it, in other threads. I do not feel like reminding you of it here.

Okay. I'm sure it was just as convincing as you non-existent proof on the RAW support for your reading of 'this power', that you sent me searching for.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So when you case Hammerhand a second time it just disappears?

The line around AABB reducing to AAB was correct - you have two different effects, one is a modifier the other a special rule. Due to the restriction on special rules you end up with a single USR, but two modifiers, and as per page 2 you use normal maths.

Oh, and HIWPI is stacking, as does 100% of all UK tournaments attended since 6th edition began - roughly 20, includign 100= players. Note I only play one army with psychic powers, and the only one that stacked was Hammerhand....

AAB is an illegal state.

In essence you have special rule "E" that while in effect does AB, so E=AB

After a second casting you can't have EE as that violates pg 32 and you are just left with E=AB. The only other legal option if you support stacking is EE=AABB and BB is also an illegal state because of pg 32.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So when you case Hammerhand a second time it just disappears?

The line around AABB reducing to AAB was correct - you have two different effects, one is a modifier the other a special rule. Due to the restriction on special rules you end up with a single USR, but two modifiers, and as per page 2 you use normal maths.

Oh, and HIWPI is stacking, as does 100% of all UK tournaments attended since 6th edition began - roughly 20, includign 100= players. Note I only play one army with psychic powers, and the only one that stacked was Hammerhand....

AAB is an illegal state.

In essence you have special rule "E" that while in effect does AB, so E=AB

After a second casting you can't have EE as that violates pg 32 and you are just left with E=AB. The only other legal option if you support stacking is EE=AABB and BB is also an illegal state because of pg 32.

Where did you get special rule "E". As has been mentioned before Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules.

Otherwise, The Swarmlord would have the following:
Special Rules:

Synapse Creature

Alien Cunning

Blade Parry

Psychic Monstrosity

Psyker

Shadow in the Warp

Swarm Leader

The Horror

Psychic Scream

Paroxysm

Leech Essence

Instead it has:
Special Rules:

Synapse Creature

Alien Cunning

Blade Parry

Psychic Monstrosity

Psyker

Shadow in the Warp

Swarm Leader

Psychic Powers:

The Horror

Psychic Scream

Paroxysm

Leech Essence

@happyjew Oh come on now, you can't quote the rule then ask me where I got it.

Maledictions inflict penalizing special rules. Which would the "the power" mentioned in enfeeble.

ergo the effect of enfeeble is a special rule that does AB and as such is also limited by pg 32.

So -1 Toughness is a special rule now?

 Happyjew wrote:
So -1 Toughness is a special rule now?

Yes, you only have the -1 toughness while the power(SR) is in effect. Should we ever get a way to remove powers from units would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed?

Text removed.
Reds8n

Happy it has not been proven that powers are not special rules, only dispjted. I have brought up several points on that subject that have not been addressed so if you dispute it please feel free to addresss them.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So -1 Toughness is a special rule now?

Yes, you only have the -1 toughness while the power(SR) is in effect. Should we ever get a way to remove powers from units would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed?

So if modifiers are special rules then I guess I cannot stack Hammerhand (+1S) with Furious Charge (+1S) as that would be stacking special rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bausk wrote:
I have brought up several points on that subject that have not been addressed so if you dispute it please feel free to addresss them.

I probably missed it. Would you mind re-posting or PMing me?

Happy: see that's how you do it Nos. Happy made a logical argument based on more than page two using the current rules. Well put happy, that is a great point for powers not being special rules.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So -1 Toughness is a special rule now?

Yes, you only have the -1 toughness while the power(SR) is in effect. Should we ever get a way to remove powers from units would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed?

So if modifiers are special rules then I guess I cannot stack Hammerhand (+1S) with Furious Charge (+1S) as that would be stacking special rules?

Hammerhand is not furious charge, they are different SR's, ergo the modifiers those SR's grant stack.

You get the -1S -1T as the result of a single SR on a unit, they are not themselves the SR. Enfeeble puts a single SR on a unit that allows the 2 modifiers and the difficult terrain.

so again, Should we ever get a way to remove a single power from a unit would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed? or would you agree that they are both the result of the single SR/power enfeeble?

sirlynchmob wrote:
You get the -1S -1T as the result of a single SR on a unit, they are not themselves the SR. Enfeeble puts a single SR on a unit that allows the 2 modifiers and the difficult terrain.

so again, Should we ever get a way to remove a single power from a unit would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed? or would you agree that they are both the result of the single SR/power enfeeble?

Actually, the only "special rule" enfeeble gives is the treat terrain as difficult.

Just because something gives a special rule does not make the something a special rule. Otherwise, Wargear would be special rules, Unit type would be a special rule (except for "Infantry"), etc.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You get the -1S -1T as the result of a single SR on a unit, they are not themselves the SR. Enfeeble puts a single SR on a unit that allows the 2 modifiers and the difficult terrain.

so again, Should we ever get a way to remove a single power from a unit would you argue that just the -1 stays while the difficult terrain gets removed? or would you agree that they are both the result of the single SR/power enfeeble?

Actually, the only "special rule" enfeeble gives is the treat terrain as difficult.

Just because something gives a special rule does not make the something a special rule. Otherwise, Wargear would be special rules, Unit type would be a special rule (except for "Infantry"), etc.

Wargear can grant SR's right?
Psychic powers can grant SR's right?
Maledictions can cause penalizing SR's right?

In the end it's just one power on the unit, one power that looks like a SR, quacks like a SR, ergo that one power must be a SR.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wargear can grant SR's right?
Psychic powers can grant SR's right?
Maledictions can cause penalizing SR's right?

In the end it's just one power on the unit, one power that looks like a SR, quacks like a SR, ergo that one power must be a SR.

(Emphasis mine)

Note: the underlined text is pure assumption not based on the rules.

As is the assumption that same named powers may stack inspite of evidence eluding to the contrary.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wargear can grant SR's right?
Psychic powers can grant SR's right?
Maledictions can cause penalizing SR's right?

In the end it's just one power on the unit, one power that looks like a SR, quacks like a SR, ergo that one power must be a SR.

(Emphasis mine)

Note: the underlined text is not an assumption and based FULLY the rules.

Fixed that for ya. Do you deny that wargear, pg 32-psychic powers and pg 68-maledictions can grant SR's? Do you deny that enfeeble targets a unit with a single power?

No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

So to all who still think it stacks per page 2. You believe it stacks because it has a modifier correct? Which in your line of thought makes the effects of the power a modifier as well as a psychic power and needs to follow the rules for both? Still trying to understand why you are applying the rules for modifiers to a psychic power.

It seems to me the first effect is for the power to come 'into effect' on the target. I'm not just talking about Enfeeble either, all blessings/maledictions are said to have a limited duration to be 'in effect'. During that time the effect of the power is active upon the target similar to how a SR or piece of wargear might have one or more constant effects, triggered effects, etc. Not that it is or counts as either of those just to say it lingers on them as the other two would if only for a limited time. So the effect titled Endurance or the effect titled Enfeeble or whatever the power is named, is sustained for its duration upon the target and will grant(as in act as the cause of) any modifiers, SRs or whatever else it states. As such it,itself, is no more a modifier than any special rule or wargear is, which is to say it is not. An SR might grant a modifier but does not stack even though we are told modifiers do so because an SR itself is not a modifier. Furious Charge grants a +1S modifier but that does not mean it is governed by the rules for modifiers, only the modifier itself is.

Now it's easy to prove that SRs don't stack because they plainly say as much. It's easy to prove that wounds, modifiers, different psychic powers do stack for the same reason. Same psychic powers though are neither permitted nor denied leading some to believe it's up in the air. Taking stock of what material we have we know that modifiers, wounds and different psychic powers are permitted to act cumulatively and that Special Rules are specifically denied that status. It has been said these don't mean anything for this debate but they do. Specific permission given to some things means, unless otherwise stated, no blanket permission can be assumed in a permissive rule set. Of course this might lead some to believe this also means specific denial means that, unless otherwise stated, there is no blanket denial that can be assumed either but that would be in error. The rules are permission based not denial based. Meaning that if permission is not given, it is automatically denied. As that is the case it makes the list of things permitted to be cumulative very relevant as notably, 'same' psychic powers are not on the list.

BRB pg 68 Blessing - "They grant extra abilities to the Psyker's allies, such as characteristic boosts or additional special rules. Blessings target a friendly unit(s) and, unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn. "
BRB pg 68 Malediction - "They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules. Maledictions target one or more enemy units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn."
BRB pages 419-423 Enfeeble - "Whilst the power is in effect...", Endurance - "Whilst the power is in effect...", Forewarning - "Whilst the power is in effect...", Dominate - "Whilst the power is in effect...", etc...
BRB pg 2 Modifiers - "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."
BRB pg 15 Allocate wounds - "Continue allocating unsaved wounds to the closest model until there are no more wounds left..."
BRB pg 68 Resolve Psychic Power - "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."
BRB pg 32 A Compendium of Special Rules - "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."
BRB pg 37 Furious Charge - "adds +l to its Strength characteristic until the end of that phase"