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 Abandon wrote:
So to all who still think it stacks per page 2. You believe it stack because it has a modifier correct? Which in your line of thought makes the effects of the power a modifier as well as a psychic power and needs to follow the rules for both? Still trying to understand why you are applying the rules for modifiers to a psychic power.

We have spelled it out for you, but I will do it again as you seem to have missed it.

We have permission for two different psykers to cast enfeeble on a single target unit twice.

This unit now has -2 toughness as per page two because each enfeeble subtracts 1 from the Toughness of the unit.

The rules are permission based not denial based. Meaning that if permission is not given, it is automatically denied. As that is the case it makes the list of things permitted to be cumulative very relevant as notably, 'same' psychic powers are not on the list.

Except we have permission in the case of Enfeeble, or Hammerhand, so you have to find the restriction otherwise it stacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

On this I actually agree. That psychic powers are granted through a special rule does not make them special rules just as a power granting a modifier does not make the power a modifier.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

So you agree they grant special rules, that's what the second question leads to that you don't want to answer.

Maledictions create a SR on the target unit.
Enfeeble creates a single SR on the target that does various things.
pg 32 says the same SR is not cumulative & 68 supports that idea

There's enough rule support for this idea that it is RAW. But go ahead and just dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Keep to the conclusion you want and assume the rules support it.

Enfeeble creates a SR on the target?

Citation needed, because I do not see -1 Toughness in the Special rules section...

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

On this I actually agree. That psychic powers are granted through a special rule does not make them special rules just as a power granting a modifier does not make the power a modifier.

Yea the power is not bound by modifiers as the power is not simply a number, but that does not matter as we have permission to cast enfeeble or hammerhand twice from two different psykers on a single target unit, and there is no restriction so they both apply their modifiers.

You should read Abandon's comment again at the end of page 15. It has the restriction that you're asking for and was very well laid out

 chillis wrote:
You should read Abandon's comment again at the end of page 15. It has the restriction that you're asking for and was very well laid out

It really does not have the restriction saying you can not cast hammerhand (Or enfeeble) on the same unit twice...

Correct, it has to do with resolving.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

So you agree they grant special rules, that's what the second question leads to that you don't want to answer.

Maledictions create a SR on the target unit.
Enfeeble creates a single SR on the target that does various things.
pg 32 says the same SR is not cumulative & 68 supports that idea

There's enough rule support for this idea that it is RAW. But go ahead and just dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Keep to the conclusion you want and assume the rules support it.

This argument is unfortunately technically incorrect. Both Blessings and Maledictions per page 68 state the modify characteristics or grant special rules. Altering states is definitely a modifying a characteristic which is listed separately from granting special rules. -1T, not a special rule.

 Abandon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

So you agree they grant special rules, that's what the second question leads to that you don't want to answer.

Maledictions create a SR on the target unit.
Enfeeble creates a single SR on the target that does various things.
pg 32 says the same SR is not cumulative & 68 supports that idea

There's enough rule support for this idea that it is RAW. But go ahead and just dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Keep to the conclusion you want and assume the rules support it.

This argument is unfortunately technically incorrect. Both Blessings and Maledictions per page 68 state the modify characteristics or grant special rules. Altering states is definitely a modifying a characteristic which is listed separately from granting special rules. -1T, not a special rule.

Enfeeble creates a SR on the target?

Citation needed, because I do not see -1 Toughness in the Special rules section...

 DeathReaper wrote:
Enfeeble creates a SR on the target?

Citation needed, because I do not see -1 Toughness in the Special rules section...

pg 68 maledictions, notice the phrase inflicting penalizing special rules.& 68.

check out pg 32 where it states that psychic powers can grant special rules. Also note that is not the complete list of special rules. They even say it's not an exhaustive list, you're just looking at the common ones.

Ergo the effect of enfeeble is a SR that does many things including but not limited to -1 T. It's not just a modifier. You're treating it as such and that is where you're going wrong.

Does treating open terrain as difficult terrain breaks or bends the main rules about open terrain? Yep. Ergo it meets the criteria to be a special rule, pg 68 says it is a special rule. That makes it a special rule as it is just one power on the unit doing 3 different things. It just happens to do some other stuff as well.

If you want to keep to the claim that the result of the enfeeble on the target unit is not a special rule, then per pg 32 it does not have permission to modify the rules, nor does pg 2 allow it to modify characteristics. So all the results of enfeeble can be ignored outright.

I have more rules to support my conclusion based on the rules so if you want to disagree that it is RAW, Then I claim RAI. Because it is obvious this is what they intended.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, it is not based in the rules at all and it is just an assumption. there is nothing that says psychic powers are Special Rules.

They can grant special rules, but they themselves are not special rules.

Plus your first question has nothing to do with your second question.

So you agree they grant special rules, that's what the second question leads to that you don't want to answer.

Maledictions create a SR on the target unit.
Enfeeble creates a single SR on the target that does various things.
pg 32 says the same SR is not cumulative & 68 supports that idea

There's enough rule support for this idea that it is RAW. But go ahead and just dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Keep to the conclusion you want and assume the rules support it.

This argument is unfortunately technically incorrect. Both Blessings and Maledictions per page 68 state the modify characteristics or grant special rules. Altering states is definitely a modifying a characteristic which is listed separately from granting special rules. -1T, not a special rule.

so if you have 3 sources for furious charge all the +1 to Str stack because they are modifiers and not part of the furious charge special rule?
does 3 sources of stealth mean you get +3 to your cover save as modifiers stack and is not part of the stealth special rule?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:


This argument is unfortunately technically incorrect. Both Blessings and Maledictions per page 68 state the modify characteristics or grant special rules. Altering states is definitely a modifying a characteristic which is listed separately from granting special rules. -1T, not a special rule.

Enfeeble creates a SR on the target?

Citation needed, because I do not see -1 Toughness in the Special rules section...

A assume you misquoted or did not read my comment because I was actually agreeing with you. So in reply I'll just say it does, it makes all terrain difficult to the target. That is of course separate from the stat modifiers which, as I just said, are not special rules.

Edit: Forgot the citation you requested. BRB pg 419 Enfeeble - "...and treats all terrain (even open ground) as difficult terrain."

While you're at it Reaper feel free to cite the rule that clearly states that two different psykers may stack yhe same named power. Rather than assumng that different powers pertains to that rather than different namwd powers.

 Bausk wrote:
While you're at it Reaper feel free to cite the rule that clearly states that two different psykers may stack yhe same named power. Rather than assumng that different powers pertains to that rather than different namwd powers.

I have shown this.

I have permission for Psyker A to cast a power on a target unit.

I have permission for Psyker A to cast a power on a target unit. (The rules do not restrict a different casting of the same power on a single target unit)

 Abandon wrote:
A assume you misquoted or did not read my comment because I was actually agreeing with you. So in reply I'll just say it does, it makes all terrain difficult to the target. That is of course separate from the stat modifiers which, as I just said, are not special rules.

Edit: Forgot the citation you requested. BRB pg 419 Enfeeble - "...and treats all terrain (even open ground) as difficult terrain."

No, I did not misquote, and the part you just quoted is not a special rule, special rules are found on pages 32-43 since it is not on these pages, and not laid out in the codex, it is not a special rule, as SR's are in the BRB on pages 32-43 or laid out in a codex.

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex." (32)

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Enfeeble creates a SR on the target?

Citation needed, because I do not see -1 Toughness in the Special rules section...

pg 68 maledictions, notice the phrase inflicting penalizing special rules.& 68.

check out pg 32 where it states that psychic powers can grant special rules. Also note that is not the complete list of special rules. They even say it's not an exhaustive list, you're just looking at the common ones.

Ergo the effect of enfeeble is a SR that does many things including but not limited to -1 T. It's not just a modifier. You're treating it as such and that is where you're going wrong.

Does treating open terrain as difficult terrain breaks or bends the main rules about open terrain? Yep. Ergo it meets the criteria to be a special rule, pg 68 says it is a special rule. That makes it a special rule as it is just one power on the unit doing 3 different things. It just happens to do some other stuff as well.

If you want to keep to the claim that the result of the enfeeble on the target unit is not a special rule, then per pg 32 it does not have permission to modify the rules, nor does pg 2 allow it to modify characteristics. So all the results of enfeeble can be ignored outright.

I have more rules to support my conclusion based on the rules so if you want to disagree that it is RAW, Then I claim RAI. Because it is obvious this is what they intended.

You mean this part on Page 32?

"similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear." (32)

Note the underlined, and also note that Enfeeble does not create a SR because it does not make it "abundantly clear." that it is a special rule, as it does not say that difficult terrain is a special rule and it is not listed on pages 32-43 since it is not on these pages, and not laid out in the codex, it is not a special rule, as SR's are on pages 32-43 in the BRB or laid out in a codex.

sirlynchmob wrote:

so if you have 3 sources for furious charge all the +1 to attack stack because they are modifiers and not part of the furious charge special rule?
does 3 sources of stealth mean you get +3 to your cover save as modifiers stack and is not part of the stealth special rule?

I have covered this already... today, less than an hour ago... in this thread. Please read my posts if you going to question my views. It is rather rude to to waist everyone's time and muddle the discussion with pointlessly repetitive questions you would already know the answer to if cared to actually read what other people are saying.

@ deathreaper I'm sorry the line on pg 68 isn't clear enough for you.

enfeeble is a malediction, maledictions create special rules.

ergo the effect of enfeeble is a special rule

seems crystal clear to me.

sirlynchmob wrote:
@ deathreaper I'm sorry the line on pg 68 isn't clear enough for you.

enfeeble is a malediction, maledictions create special rules.

ergo the effect of enfeeble is a special rule

seems crystal clear to me.

(Emphasis mine)
The underlined is incorrect, it does not say that...

It says that can, not that they do.

Saying "maledictions create special rules" seems like you are saying that all maledictions create special rules, which of course is false.

Specifically it says " They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules." (Page 68, Emphasis mine. Note it says or)

This more points to the fact that "reducing their characteristics" is not the same as "inflicting penalising special rules"

 Abandon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

so if you have 3 sources for furious charge all the +1 to attack stack because they are modifiers and not part of the furious charge special rule?
does 3 sources of stealth mean you get +3 to your cover save as modifiers stack and is not part of the stealth special rule?

I have covered this already... today, less than an hour ago... in this thread. Please read my posts if you going to question my views. It is rather rude to to waist everyone's time and muddle the discussion with pointlessly repetitive questions you would already know the answer to if cared to actually read what other people are saying.

I said:

Maledictions create a SR on the target unit.
Enfeeble creates a single SR on the target that does various things.
pg 32 says the same SR is not cumulative & 68 supports that idea

you followed with:

 Abandon wrote:
This argument is unfortunately technically incorrect. Both Blessings and Maledictions per page 68 state the modify characteristics or grant special rules. Altering states is definitely a modifying a characteristic which is listed separately from granting special rules. -1T, not a special rule.

I never said anything about -1 T
The point is enfeeble puts a single power (whilst the power is in effect) on the target that adds a special rule and modifies some stats. It's not 3 separate things going on, just 1. Does it just modify a characteristic or does it do 3 things as part of 1 power? The fact that it does cover 3 different things including a special rule is what makes it definitively a special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
@ deathreaper I'm sorry the line on pg 68 isn't clear enough for you.

enfeeble is a malediction, maledictions create special rules.

ergo the effect of enfeeble is a special rule

seems crystal clear to me.

(Emphasis mine)
The underlined is incorrect, it does not say that...

It says that can, not that they do.

Saying "maledictions create special rules" seems like you are saying that all maledictions create special rules, which of course is false.

Specifically it says " They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules." (Page 68, Emphasis mine. Note it says or)

This more points to the fact that "reducing their characteristics" is not the same as "inflicting penalising special rules"

Right, note the word "OR" Just OR, no "and/or" no ands at all. does the power just modify a characteristic? no, it does other things. because of the other things it's not just reducing their characteristics so it must be inflicting a penalizing special rule.

No reaper. that is you stating a senario as rules. Not a cited rule. so please try again but this time with a rule citation to back up your claim. preferably a relevant one, not page two.

I leave this thread alone for 1 day and already people are claiming that all the effects of a psychic power are part of a special rule created by the power. As absurd as the very idea is, I guess I might as well provide evidence to the contrary: Endurance is cast a unit, Endurance grants 2 special rules to the unit, Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die. These are 2 completely distinct special rules, not one special rule that acts like both, if the unit in question already has FNP, it will only gain IWND, rather than having FNP and (special rule that acts like both FNP and IWND).

Really, I'm disappointed with you, YMDC. You used to twist rules to your advantage, now you're just making them up as you go along.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
A assume you misquoted or did not read my comment because I was actually agreeing with you. So in reply I'll just say it does, it makes all terrain difficult to the target. That is of course separate from the stat modifiers which, as I just said, are not special rules.

Edit: Forgot the citation you requested. BRB pg 419 Enfeeble - "...and treats all terrain (even open ground) as difficult terrain."

No, I did not misquote, and the part you just quoted is not a special rule, special rules are found on pages 32-43 since it is not on these pages, and not laid out in the codex, it is not a special rule, as SR's are in the BRB on pages 32-43 or laid out in a codex.

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex." (32)
.

In that case per RAW Maledictions only do two things. BRB pg 68 "They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules"

So is it reducing a characteristic or inflicting a penalizing special rule?
Edit: Also highlighted the problem ares with you citation you quoted as 'proof'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

I never said anything about -1 T
The point is enfeeble puts a single power (whilst the power is in effect) on the target that adds a special rule and modifies some stats. It's not 3 separate things going on, just 1. Does it just modify a characteristic or does it do 3 things as part of 1 power? The fact that it does cover 3 different things including a special rule is what makes it definitively a special rule.

I agree with all but the part in bold as far as RAW. Wargear can do similar things but wargear is still wargear not a special rule. Likewise, Enfeeble being in effect is not a special rule just because it grants one.

...forgive me if I misinterpret the meaning behind your words but I think i got it right. You are saying Enfeeble being 'in effect' is a special rule correct?

Ok, I've gathered the problem lies here: "They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules". Now, we have maledictions that very clearly reduce characteristics and inflict penalising special rules. So we have 3 options to resolve this:
1. Assume that this descriptor line is put in place to explain what maledictions are to the reader, and does not actually impose a strict rule limiting maledictions to doing one or the other.
2. Invent a brand new rule where maledictions create these bizarre unnamed special rules that consist of all the effects of the power in question.
3. The game breaks whenever these powers are used, allowing us to tie a game we're losing by casting Enfeeble on something.

Now, I know which one is the logical choice, applying Occam's razor and just the teeniest bit of common sense, can anyone guess which one that is? (hint: it's not 2, 2 is dumb. 3 is potentially dumber, but not by much.)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I leave this thread alone for 1 day and already people are claiming that all the effects of a psychic power are part of a special rule created by the power. As absurd as the very idea is, I guess I might as well provide evidence to the contrary: Endurance is cast a unit, Endurance grants 2 special rules to the unit, Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die. These are 2 completely distinct special rules, not one special rule that acts like both, if the unit in question already has FNP, it will only gain IWND, rather than having FNP and (special rule that acts like both FNP and IWND).

Really, I'm disappointed with you, YMDC. You used to twist rules to your advantage, now you're just making them up as you go along.

Making it up as you go along is a tradition that has a long and rich history that said to go back to to the days of the little metal men that hurt when someone throws them at you... those were the days...

 Abandon wrote:

In that case per RAW Maledictions only do two things. BRB pg 68 "They weaken the Psyker's enemies by reducing their characteristics or inflicting penalising special rules"

So is it reducing a characteristic or inflicting a penalizing special rule?
Edit: Also highlighted the problem ares with you citation you quoted as 'proof'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

I never said anything about -1 T
The point is enfeeble puts a single power (whilst the power is in effect) on the target that adds a special rule and modifies some stats. It's not 3 separate things going on, just 1. Does it just modify a characteristic or does it do 3 things as part of 1 power? The fact that it does cover 3 different things including a special rule is what makes it definitively a special rule.

I agree with all but the part in bold as far as RAW. Wargear can do similar things but wargear is still wargear not a special rule. Likewise, Enfeeble being in effect is not a special rule just because it grants one.

...forgive me if I misinterpret the meaning behind your words but I think i got it right. You are saying Enfeeble being 'in effect' is a special rule correct?

Yep, enfeeble is a psychic power inflicting a penalizing special rule. the special rule is everything after "whilst the power is in effect,....."
I've never said wargear is special rules, I said it can grant special rules.

Because the power is not just reducing their characteristics (A), so it must be inflicting a penalizing special rule(B). blessings & maledictions say its A or B. We seem to be agreeing on the outcome, you just don't agree with how I got here

edit:
and more specifically even though I've mentioned it before the "treats all terrain as difficult terrain" is definitely a special rule that meets all the criteria on pg 32 to be one.

 Bausk wrote:
No reaper. that is you stating a senario as rules. Not a cited rule. so please try again but this time with a rule citation to back up your claim. preferably a relevant one, not page two.

Check the Psychic powers section, specifically targeting.

I have permission from the Psychic power section to cast a psychic power on a unit, and again from a different psyker on the same unit.

DR - that proof was already given to Bausk, with no sensible rebuttal, but they keep repeating requests for an insanely narrow requirement that can't be met, because a more general allowance - the one you cite - already covers it.

Bausk - yawn, your OT post reported, ignore.

sirlynch - so your claim is that it creates a composite special rule? As pointed out, that is an argument belied by the BRB power Endurance, so please drop that assertion - it has no basis in rules.

I cast enfeeble, and two effects happen - -1T and the terrain alteration.

I cast enfeeble again, as per page two apply the second -1T, and apply a second terrain modification - which has no further effect.

All clear and simple rules. Done. Or alternatively people could go with a very convoluted reading, that requires literally making up a restriction from thin air, ignores the rules for multiply modifying stats without cause, etc.

One of the problems with 'Special Rules' 'Wargear' 'Abilities' and 'Phychic Powers' are in some sections in the rule book they are all treated completely seperatly. In some area's it only mentions one or two when it obviosly means more or all. 'Ability' is the least defined by the BRB, is is not as obvios as 'Wargear'.
'Special Rules' deffinition is so broad it could encompass all 4 of those.
Under Modifications itself it only includes 'Special rules' and 'Wargear' as notes to be able to apply modifications, and under Multiple modifyers we get 'Rules and Wargear' (As if Wargear are not rules???)


Basically I am saying each of these 4 may or may not be seperate, some may include others, BRB is very inconsistant in the use, however I don't believe PP to be Special Rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
No reaper. that is you stating a senario as rules. Not a cited rule. so please try again but this time with a rule citation to back up your claim. preferably a relevant one, not page two.

Check the Psychic powers section, specifically targeting.

I have permission from the Psychic power section to cast a psychic power on a unit, and again from a different psyker on the same unit.

I'm not disputing targeting, every psyker in your army may cast the same power on one unit for all I care. I'm disputing stacking effects. Now the key to this is in the wording of both Blessings and Maledictions. Now both say unless otherwise stated they are both assumed to last until the end of the next turn. Also both state that unless otherwise stated bonuses and penaltys are always cumulative from different blessings/maledictions.

Now this has been pointed out as a muddy area for both sides. However I submit that given that one psyker cannot cast the same power twice the only interpretation of different that makes any sense in the phrasing is Different named powers rather than from different sources. This coupled with specific allowances on some but not all blessing and maledictions in 6th ed powers leads to the simple conclusion that unless stated in the blessing or maledictions rules, only Different named blessings or maledictions may in fact stack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - that proof was already given to Bausk, with no sensible rebuttal, but they keep repeating requests for an insanely narrow requirement that can't be met, because a more general allowance - the one you cite - already covers it.

Bausk - yawn, your OT post reported, ignore.

Thanks for conceding the point, you seem to have no new information or citations so you claim my argument has no standing without actual proof. Ward would be proud.

 DeathReaper wrote:

I have permission from the Psychic power section to cast a psychic power on a unit, and again from a different psyker on the same unit.

Yes you have. And whether you cast it once or twice the power is in effect on the unit and certain things follow from that. It does not matter how many times you cast the power, it still either is on effect or isn't.

(Special rules discussion isn't really relevant. Psychic powers aren't special rules an modifiers are not special rules either. However, It's funny how p.2 mentions only special rules and wargear as things that can modify characteristics, though we can probably safely assume that psychic powers stating stat alterations is permission enough for them to be allowed to do this.)

 Crimson wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

I have permission from the Psychic power section to cast a psychic power on a unit, and again from a different psyker on the same unit.

Yes you have. And whether you cast it once or twice the power is in effect on the unit and certain things follow from that. It does not matter how many times you cast the power, it still either is on effect or isn't.

I'd just like to point this is HYWPI, as the "while this power is in effect" wording could potentially refer to either that instance of the power or the power in and of itself, with no clear indication one way or the other.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

I'd just like to point this is HYWPI, as the "while this power is in effect" wording could potentially refer to either that instance of the power or the power in and of itself, with no clear indication one way or the other.

Yes, I completely agree, I've said it many times in this thread. It was merely offered as an counter to the other reading being the RAW. It could mean either, RAW is inconclusive.