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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:08:33
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Page 71 of Codex: CSM highlights the vagaries of stacking and non-stacking within that one page. Hysterical Frenzy does not give explicit permission to stack (their terminology is cumulative) their effects while Gift of Contagion and Symphony of Pain all have permission for cumulative effects (stacking the effects of psychic powers). It is a no win situation one way or the other as the powers that explicitly stack are maledictions or negative effects while the only explicitly nonstacking power is a boon or blessing. Does it seem like intent to only have negative effects stack?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 12:09:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:13:33
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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WarOne wrote:Page 71 of Codex: CSM highlights the vagaries of stacking and non-stacking within that one page. Hysterical Frenzy does not give explicit permission to stack (their terminology is cumulative) their effects while Gift of Contagion and Symphony of Pain all have permission for cumulative effects (stacking the effects of psychic powers).
This is one reason why I think RAI is non-stacking as default state. They give some powers a specific permission to stack, if all powers always stacked, this wouldn't make sense. (And now somebody will say that they're just reminders they arbitrarily decided to put on some powers but not on other similar powers in the same book.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:17:02
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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WarOne wrote:Page 71 of Codex: CSM highlights the vagaries of stacking and non-stacking within that one page. Hysterical Frenzy does not give explicit permission to stack (their terminology is cumulative) their effects while Gift of Contagion and Symphony of Pain all have permission for cumulative effects (stacking the effects of psychic powers).
It is a no win situation one way or the other as the powers that explicitly stack are maledictions or negative effects while the only explicitly nonstacking power is a boon or blessing. Does it seem like intent to only have negative effects stack?
Given that both Blessings and Maledictions used the exact same wording I am inclined to say both are not stackable unless otherwise stated in the powers rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: Crimson wrote: WarOne wrote:Page 71 of Codex: CSM highlights the vagaries of stacking and non-stacking within that one page. Hysterical Frenzy does not give explicit permission to stack (their terminology is cumulative) their effects while Gift of Contagion and Symphony of Pain all have permission for cumulative effects (stacking the effects of psychic powers).
This is one reason why I think RAI is non-stacking as default state. They give some powers a specific permission to stack, if all powers always stacked, this wouldn't make sense. (And now somebody will say that they're just reminders they arbitrarily decided to put on some powers but not on other similar powers in the same book.)
You forgot page two Crimson. Clearly it justifies everything. (add sarcasm)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 12:18:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:31:40
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Bausk wrote: Crimson wrote: WarOne wrote:Page 71 of Codex: CSM highlights the vagaries of stacking and non-stacking within that one page. Hysterical Frenzy does not give explicit permission to stack (their terminology is cumulative) their effects while Gift of Contagion and Symphony of Pain all have permission for cumulative effects (stacking the effects of psychic powers).
This is one reason why I think RAI is non-stacking as default state. They give some powers a specific permission to stack, if all powers always stacked, this wouldn't make sense. (And now somebody will say that they're just reminders they arbitrarily decided to put on some powers but not on other similar powers in the same book.)
You forgot page two Crimson. Clearly it justifies everything. (add sarcasm)
Well, page 2 does say that if you are able to resolve Enfeeble twice on a unit the modifiers would stack, the question is whether or not the wording of Enfeeble allows it to stack (or whether that the basic rules allow same name maledictions to stack or not, but considering the non-stacking side have resorted to deliberate misinterpretation and making up rules to prove their side, I'd say the pro-stacking side has won that argument).
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:33:20
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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GW allowing Hammerhand to stack. Can someone clarify where GW allows this explicitly (i.e. they spell it out for you)?
I want to check something there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:36:06
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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There are plenty of RAI arguments supporting stacking as well.
A few words added to the special rules section make it very clear they couldn't stack. They didn't add these words to the psychic rules despite the rest of the rule being nearly identical.
This question has been asked many times, has been house ruled in almost all major UK tournaments (and apparently US ones too), so GW are definitely aware of the issue, yet they haven't FAQ'd this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:48:03
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Incorrect Raven, page two only pertains to multiple modifiers not multiple psychic powers. We have not resorted to misinterpretation or making up rules. We are however disputing the validity of multiple same named powers stacking effects based on a clearly thought out interpretation of the rules presented both in the psychic powers section of the brb and multiple codexes power listings.
Page two is not in dispute, only its application as it has not been proven that multiple same named powers have permission to stack. Also permission to target a unit already affected by a power of the same name is not in dispute either, as clearly we have permission to do that also.
The dispute is in permission for same named powers to stack. Until new evidence is provided for the current rules that does not address page two or targeting then all cited evidence presents itself as such powers are inherently unable to.stack.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 12:52:38
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
no idea
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Ok, I have a question that I would like to put to both sides.
The previous eldar codex had an entry for eldrads staff.
This is an old, now superceded codex, but when 6th came along, was current.
With this staff, eldrad could cast a third (additional) power, which could be a power that he had already used.
So, in 6th terms, lets pretend that eldrad has the power enfeeble.
He casts it on unit a and it takes effect.
He then decides to do it again and casts this 2nd enfeeble at the same unit. He has permission to do this.
Now we know that a psyker cannot cast the same power twice, this piece of wargear, however, allows him to do this.
He has now cast the same power twice and now we need to resolve this second power.
The only place we have true specific instructions on how psychic powers interact is on p68.
We are told different powers are cumulative and that's it.
There we have the true specific (not general) instructions.
Clearly, eldrad has used the same power twice, not two different powers.
The second instance, despite it being an additional casting, is the same power.
Also, despite permission to cast (only in this case granted by the staff), it remains the same power.
We are only told, in the psychic powers section (where you would expect to be told what is relevant) that different powers are cumulative.
Inevitably here then, we have 2 legal castings of the same power, which is not 2 castings of different powers, the second one of which cannot be cumulative with the first, because we are told that different powers are cumulative.
Not only that, but we are told that in the relevant place.
Before anyone moans about this being a pre 6th codex, so is the one with hammerhand.
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You wart-ridden imbeciles! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 13:01:23
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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In context that sounds right. Same power, read as not different, cast twice legally on the same unit with no express permission to accumulate its effects. Nice summation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 13:05:27
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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fuusa wrote:Ok, I have a question that I would like to put to both sides.
*snip*
My RAI interpretation on how the situation you describe would work:
He could cast it twice on the same unit, just as normally two different psykers can cast the same power on one unit. Then Enfeeble is in effect on that unit, just like it would be if it was cast only once. Penalties are applied only once, as number of Enfeebles do not matter, merely whether Enfeeble is on effect or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 13:17:38
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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If anyone can actually prove that having a previous malediction cast a unit will affect subsequent maledictions in any way I am perfectly willing to listen, until then I will stick to believing that it could go either way based on the wording of Enfeeble and similar powers.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 13:22:53
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
no idea
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How about this then, raven.
Try to ignore what has gone on before, if you will and check this out.
Crimson wrote: Then Enfeeble is in effect on that unit, just like it would be if it was cast only once. Penalties are applied only once, as number of Enfeebles do not matter, merely whether Enfeeble is on effect or not.
I understand why you say that, but its not the whole story, imo.
There is here, a fundamental breakdown of arguing and logic.
We are in a tree and woods situation and are going blind.
Pg2 tells us how modifiers are cumulative = fine.
Pg 68 tells us how powers are cumulative.
The similarity with special rules wording is just that. Similarity.
Please note, everyone that modifiers are cumulative.
The only thing, really the only thing we are told, is that different powers are cumulative.
Powers are not modifiers, they are powers.
Its same powers that don't stack, not modifiers.
Multiple enfeebles don't stack, because they are powers.
Multiple different powers that caused the same modifier (i.e. -1Tx however many) would stack, because different powers do.
Different power, forcing the same modifier = stack.
Modifiers are not powers, powers are not modifiers, different powers stack all modifiers stack the second modifier (another -1T) will stack if its from a different power.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 13:25:54
You wart-ridden imbeciles! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 13:36:01
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Further more, if they made it outright illegal to even cast the same power on a target that already was affected by it then you would be unable to extend the duration of those effects or rather sustain the effects.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 14:36:53
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
sirlynch - so your claim is that it creates a composite special rule? As pointed out, that is an argument belied by the BRB power Endurance, so please drop that assertion - it has no basis in rules.
I cast enfeeble, and two effects happen - -1T and the terrain alteration.
I cast enfeeble again, as per page two apply the second -1T, and apply a second terrain modification - which has no further effect.
All clear and simple rules. Done. Or alternatively people could go with a very convoluted reading, that requires literally making up a restriction from thin air, ignores the rules for multiply modifying stats without cause, etc.
Come on Nos, surely even you can see the difference in one power specifically granting 3 different special rules, and 1 rule with 3 effects?
It's either a modifier OR a special rule? not both, as you admit there is part a rule that won't stack within the power enfeeble, it is a SR.
And there you go projecting the failures of your argument onto others. I'm not making up restrictions, you're just ignoring all the applicable rules from pg 68 & pg 32 that tell us the effects of enfeeble is a SR and therefore won't stack with itself. No basis in the rules really? You mean no rules that you can accept because all the rules point to you being wrong. Because yet again you keep skipping the part of resolving the power what the maledictions section actually says.
Enfeeble is a malediction
maledictions create special rules
pg 32 supports psychic powers creating special rules
pg 32 restriction SR's don't stack with themselves.
Modify based on pg 2, oh look we were only legally given one modifier.
done, it's as simple as that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 14:41:54
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Sir Lynch - again, your made up rules and assertions arent actual rules. The holes in your argument has been shown repetition will not win you anything.
-1-1 = -2. As simple, and as blindingly intuitive, as that
Crimson - again you only mention the "RAI" that supports your contention - in your "balanced" responses you neglect the explicit no-stack in the SR section. Given the identical wording, you are claiming they just "forgot" to add this in? Or is it just not necessary to add this statement, making the SR rule redundant (and functionally a reminder)
GW has a habit of placing odd reminders in rules - 5th edition ID on bikes, for instance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 14:43:56
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Sir Lynch - again, your made up rules and assertions arent actual rules. The holes in your argument has been shown repetition will not win you anything.
-1-1 = -2. As simple, and as blindingly intuitive, as that
Crimson - again you only mention the " RAI" that supports your contention - in your "balanced" responses you neglect the explicit no-stack in the SR section. Given the identical wording, you are claiming they just "forgot" to add this in? Or is it just not necessary to add this statement, making the SR rule redundant (and functionally a reminder)
GW has a habit of placing odd reminders in rules - 5th edition ID on bikes, for instance.
Funny I seem to be quoting lots of rules while you're resorting to your dogmatic approach of -1-1=-2. Which you can not show through the rules you get.
The holes in your argument has been shown repetition will not win you anything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 14:50:22
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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sirlynchmob wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Sir Lynch - again, your made up rules and assertions arent actual rules. The holes in your argument has been shown repetition will not win you anything.
-1-1 = -2. As simple, and as blindingly intuitive, as that
Crimson - again you only mention the " RAI" that supports your contention - in your "balanced" responses you neglect the explicit no-stack in the SR section. Given the identical wording, you are claiming they just "forgot" to add this in? Or is it just not necessary to add this statement, making the SR rule redundant (and functionally a reminder)
GW has a habit of placing odd reminders in rules - 5th edition ID on bikes, for instance.
Funny I seem to be quoting lots of rules while you're resorting to your dogmatic approach of -1-1=-2. Which you can not show through the rules you get.
The holes in your argument has been shown repetition will not win you anything.
Nos thinks page two justifies everything. It's not suprising hes unwilling to achnolage or consider anything that would disprove that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 14:51:40
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Citing rules != citing relevant rules. Sometimes a distinction lost on posters.
You have created this concept of a compound special rule, where you dont get to separate the modifier from the special rule. -1T is a modifier, treating terrain as difficult could be a special rule if defined as such.
Intuitive your approach isnt, and thankfully it doesnt lie within rules.
Oh, and it WAS shown in the rules - permission to cast, and resolve, results in -2T. It does not have to explicitly state "psychic power stack" as the basic rules they give you to handle the only "stackable" effect - a series of modifiers - already covers this.
It is why the have an explciit no-stack within SR; that statement is needed to negate the permission that otherwise 2 sources of FC would give +2S
Please, continue to raise rules that have no relevance to the topic, and claim you have "won" as a result. It isnt compelling.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 15:02:44
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Citing rules != citing relevant rules. Sometimes a distinction lost on posters.
You have created this concept of a compound special rule, where you dont get to separate the modifier from the special rule. -1T is a modifier, treating terrain as difficult could be a special rule if defined as such.
Intuitive your approach isnt, and thankfully it doesnt lie within rules.
Oh, and it WAS shown in the rules - permission to cast, and resolve, results in -2T. It does not have to explicitly state "psychic power stack" as the basic rules they give you to handle the only "stackable" effect - a series of modifiers - already covers this.
It is why the have an explciit no-stack within SR; that statement is needed to negate the permission that otherwise 2 sources of FC would give +2S
Please, continue to raise rules that have no relevance to the topic, and claim you have "won" as a result. It isnt compelling.
Please take your own advice, the only way your argument works is if you complete ignore all the relevant rules on pg 68 & pg 32. Not just ignore them though, tell anyone who read them they're not relevant or they're making them up. Including and especially the most relevant rule that psychic powers can cause special rules. They only state that rule twice after all. And by your unintuitive approach you can make a case for FC giving +2S As the bonus to S is a modifier PG2.
So please keep to your own advice:
continue to raise rules that have no relevance to the topic, and claim you have "won" as a result. It isn't compelling.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 16:00:38
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Given the identical wording, you are claiming they just "forgot" to add this in?
Yes, definitely. I find it much more plausible than the idea that they intentionally wrote nonsensical and misleading sentences in both BRB and Chaos Codex. 'Different powers stack' is sensible thing to write only if same don't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 16:16:14
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Reverent Tech-Adept
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Why bother wasting space with really, really poor attempts at appearing witty when someone took time out of their day to contribute a logical, reasonable, and potentially valuable point?
Fuusa's last post is interesting and people should address it. I would like to know how I should play this.
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Think first. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 16:19:23
Subject: Re:Psychic Powers Stacking
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Well, it is the Chaos codex, maybe it's all part of Tzeentch's plan. Personally, given their track record, I find it entirely plausible that GW wrote nonsensical and misleading sentences, adding probably unnecessary reminders and forgetting to write things they actually should have, just take a look back at the start of 6th, where grounding tests were completely broken and "oh yeah, did we forget to tell you? FMCs can choose to Skyfire just like Flyers".
Rapture wrote:Fuusa's last post is interesting and people should address it. I would like to know how I should play this.
The problem with said post is this: " Pg 68 tells us how powers are cumulative."
To some extent, yes, it does, it tells us that "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative" and that "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions
are always cumulative", fuusa assumes that this tells us that permission is denied for multiple instances of the same power to be cumulative, then bases the rest of this argument off this assumption. The problem is that there is not actually denied permission for the effects of multiple same-name maledictions to be cumulative, so with the basis of fuusa's argument being invalid, the argument itself falls apart.
Interestingly, the line above the first quote tells us how to resolve powers: "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry." So, we have permission to resolve the power according to how it is written, and we do not have denial, so we go the entry of the specific power. This thread has mainly focussed on the two powers "Hammerhand" and "Enfeeeble", since I don't own the Grey Knights Codex, let's look at Enfeeble.
"Enfeeble is a malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24"..." ok so far, we've got nothing about previous Enfeebles being active on a unit preventing it from being cast, "Whilst the power is in effect..." Uh oh, we've hit a snag, what does "the power" refer to? If it means "this manifestation of Enfeeble" we're good, but if it means "Enfeeble in and of itself" multiple manifestations of Enfeeble are entirely superfluous on the same unit. So which one is it? Well, since the pro-stacking side have apparently set a recording of themselves on repeat and left the room, while the non-stacking side are all busy painting horses with black and white stripes and selling zebras, I doubt we'll get any meaningful conversation on the topic.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 16:53:59
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 17:39:40
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
no idea
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PrinceRaven wrote:
Rapture wrote:Fuusa's last post is interesting and people should address it. I would like to know how I should play this.
The problem with said post is this: " Pg 68 tells us how powers are cumulative."
To some extent, yes, it does, it tells us that "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative" and that "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions
are always cumulative", fuusa assumes that this tells us that permission is denied for multiple instances of the same power to be cumulative, then bases the rest of this argument off this assumption. The problem is that there is not actually denied permission for the effects of multiple same-name maledictions to be cumulative, so with the basis of fuusa's argument being invalid, the argument itself falls apart.
Well, in defence of that post, I don't think I am assuming anything, I am parsing the rules, in that section, as they appear.
If we compare the rules for special rules and those of psychic powers, the former does have a specific denial, that's true. But, they are different rules, in different parts of the book, similar wording is irrelevant. They are similar, but inherently different. This part of the argument should be consigned to the coffin (I say that after broaching the point, that powers may in actual fact, be a subset, of the special rule "psyker").
I suggest, that it is entirely possible, to cast psychic powers, using the rules in the psychic powers section.
So, eldrad casts his (first) enfeeble, it takes effect, the power is fully resolved, unit at -1T and terrain effects.
He casts the second at the same unit, he has permission.
The power is then resolved.
It demands -1T and the terrain effects.
As has been proved earlier, a power can be fully resolved and yet have no-effect.
Denial of same power being cumulative, is not required.
The only permission we have is that different powers are cumulative, there is nothing else there at all.
We need these two examples of the same power (they are powers, not modifiers, even if the only outcome of the power is a modifier) to be cumulative in order for both of the modifiers to apply, we have no permission anywhere at all.
We do have permission for multiple modifiers to apply cumulatively, but not until different powers are in effect
Please note, that it is my contention (RULES LAWYER!!!), that 2 enfeebles can not only be cast on a single unit, but fully resolved.
As fully resolved powers can still be in effect, when potentially SOME or even NONE of the actual effects are in play (back to enfeeble vs. vehicles for some) this is fine.
If it can be proven, that these 2 powers are different, it unlocks the only permission that they are cumulative.
The inescapable logic, leads to multiple modifiers being cumulative.
If, however, the 2 powers are the same, we have no-permission to treat them cumulatively, because of the simple fact, that they are powers, not modifiers and so fall under the auspices of powers and not modifiers.
One more, important note.
A unit may be under the effect of multiple same powers, that is not in dispute (permission is granted to cast them).
However, it is the EFFECTS of the powers that rely on the source of the modifiers be different in order to be cumulative.
There is no-permission for it to work in any other way.
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You wart-ridden imbeciles! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 19:26:41
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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sirlynchmob wrote:
Please take your own advice, the only way your argument works is if you complete ignore all the relevant rules on pg 68 & pg 32. Not just ignore them though, tell anyone who read them they're not relevant or they're making them up. Including and especially the most relevant rule that psychic powers can cause special rules.
CAN, not ALWAYS DO
There is a difference, one that you seem to brush over.
sirlynchmob wrote:
They only state that rule twice after all. And by your unintuitive approach you can make a case for FC giving +2S As the bonus to S is a modifier PG2.
Which it would do - apart from the restriction on Special Rules stacking. Oh yeah, the restriction you do not think is necessary
sirlynchmob wrote:
So please keep to your own advice:
continue to raise rules that have no relevance to the topic, and claim you have "won" as a result. It isn't compelling.
Relevant rules posted by me - check. Relevant rules posted by you - nope, still missing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 20:09:38
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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nosferatu1001 wrote:sirlynchmob wrote:
Please take your own advice, the only way your argument works is if you complete ignore all the relevant rules on pg 68 & pg 32. Not just ignore them though, tell anyone who read them they're not relevant or they're making them up. Including and especially the most relevant rule that psychic powers can cause special rules.
CAN, not ALWAYS DO
There is a difference, one that you seem to brush over.
sirlynchmob wrote:
They only state that rule twice after all. And by your unintuitive approach you can make a case for FC giving +2S As the bonus to S is a modifier PG2.
Which it would do - apart from the restriction on Special Rules stacking. Oh yeah, the restriction you do not think is necessary
sirlynchmob wrote:
So please keep to your own advice:
continue to raise rules that have no relevance to the topic, and claim you have "won" as a result. It isn't compelling.
Relevant rules posted by me - check. Relevant rules posted by you - nope, still missing.
In this case it can and does.
Is enfeeble just a modifier? no
OR is enfeeble a special rule? yep as it's not the first one it definitely causes a special rule
see you are arguing against your own arguments, I think that restriction is very necessary and applicable, they way you separate out the modifier from the rule would indicate you think you could stack as many modifiers from furious charge or stealth as you'd like. The way you have to strawman me is just more proof you know you're wrong. You agree that we can't strip just the modifier out of a SR for FC & stealth, so why do you think you can do it with Enfeeble?
Maybe you should read the rest of the rule book past page 2 and see the context the rules I and others have posted. only pg 2 is relevant to resolving psychic powers and not any of the rules for psychic powers & special rules? LOL. But you keep to the conclusion you want and read the rules to support it and ignore all the ones that say otherwise. It's ok, you can admit you're wrong now, your ego will get over it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 20:12:04
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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sirlynchmob, you keep claiming that Enfeeble is a special rule because it grants a special rule. Does that mean Terminator Armour is a special rule since it grants a special rule?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 20:40:01
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob, you keep claiming that Enfeeble is a special rule because it grants a special rule. Does that mean Terminator Armour is a special rule since it grants a special rule?
That's not what I'm saying.
Terminator armour is wargear, that wargear grants special rules. Because you have this wargear you get these special rules.
Enfeeble is a psychic power, that psychic power inflicts a single SR. ( pg 68 maledictions) Because your unit was targeted with and enfeeble resolved, it now has "the power" special rule.
The effect of Enfeeble is a SR left on the unit called for a lack of a better term, "The power". And "the power" does 3 things as part of its power.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 20:58:03
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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That is not true, Enfeeble, or its effects are not special rules, unless you have a quote saying they are.
Special rules are found on pages 32-43 since it is not on these pages, and not laid out in the codex, it is not a special rule, as SR's are in the BRB on pages 32-43 or laid out in a codex.
"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex." (32)
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 20:59:06
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob, you keep claiming that Enfeeble is a special rule because it grants a special rule. Does that mean Terminator Armour is a special rule since it grants a special rule?
That's not what I'm saying.
So you are not saying that Psychic Powers are special rules? I'm sure I can find numerous examples of you stating otherwise. In fact in your last post:
sirlynchmob wrote:OR is enfeeble a special rule? yep as it's not the first one it definitely causes a special rule
I underlined where you said Enfeeble is a special rule.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/15 21:09:36
Subject: Psychic Powers Stacking
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:sirlynchmob, you keep claiming that Enfeeble is a special rule because it grants a special rule. Does that mean Terminator Armour is a special rule since it grants a special rule?
That's not what I'm saying.
So you are not saying that Psychic Powers are special rules? I'm sure I can find numerous examples of you stating otherwise. In fact in your last post:
sirlynchmob wrote:OR is enfeeble a special rule? yep as it's not the first one it definitely causes a special rule
I underlined where you said Enfeeble is a special rule.
In that context we are talking about the effect of enfeeble on a target unit. It bends or breaks the main game rules about terrain. The enfeeble effect on the unit meets all the criteria for a SR as laid out on pg 32.
enfeeble itself is not a SR it's a psychic power. pg 32 & 68 tell us psychic powers can cause SRs.
enfeeble the power effect on the unit is a SR. as pg 68 maledictions permits
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