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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 18:23:41
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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I've always kind of liked the chaos marines, but I am just one of those people who has a hard time playing 'evil' armies. I'm wondering if there are any ways to play a chaos army that act more like mercenaries for the imperium or who try and redeem themselves for past nefarious deeds? I like the sinister look of a lot of the chaos marines, and could totally sculpt some minor mutations, but I'm just trying to avoid the whole 'let the galaxy burn' thing.
Thoughts?
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One of them filthy casuals... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 19:16:15
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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you could run renegade CSM who might not work for the imperium but they could work for the common or greater good. I wouldnt include Daemon allies, daemons are pretty evil.
As are most of the cult troops
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 19:23:01
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Your idea of CSM wishing redemption and to fight for the Imperium could work as the secret personal army of a Radical Inquisitor.
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The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 19:08:20
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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the Chaos Codex does include renegade space marines.
marines who don't serve Chaos but are instead either out for their own agenda or have been wrongly accused of being traitors.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 19:34:34
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If I recall correctly, the Blood Gorgans are a group of Chaos Undivided CSM that are dedicated to freeing people from the tyranny of the Imperium. They still serve the Dark Gods in their own way but mostly do "good" deeds by freeing and protecting people from the oppressive unfeeling "give us your resources and tithes of men" Imperium (and it's an actual sincere and good freedom, too, as opposed to the warped idea of "freedom" that other chaos marines have).
Actual chaos marines that sincerely help and work for the Imperium probably wouldn't be chaos marines anymore in the first place. I imagine they'd immediately ditch their sinister chaos armour and cover up their mutations (or chop them off and replace with bionics) as much as possible. Hard to be sincere about turning back to the Imperium if you're still strolling around in your evil spiky armour with chaos iconography and mutations showing.
(as for whether it's emotionally possible, Tzeentch Demons (and thus, presumably, followers) sometimes pretend to help the Imperium as part of some greater plot, but that's as far as it goes. There are individual cases of chaos marines that try to redeem themselves, but those are so ludicrously rare that it's hard to imagine an entire warband doing it. That said, I suppose an entire warband turning back is technically possible (even if EXTREMELY unlikely given how often individuals do). There are individual cases of chaos marines that try to redeem themselves, but those are so ludicrously rare that it's hard to imagine an entire warband doing it. That said, I suppose an entire warband turning back is technically possible, even if EXTREMELY unlikely given how often individuals do.)
If you want to play a "good" chaos marine army, the best bet is to have them be in a sector where the Imperium really are the more evil guys (which actually is supposed to arguably sometimes be the case in the fluff, although the only times it really shows in the novels is in the case of the Blood Gorgons, I believe). Although I suppose Chaos Marines that serve Malice and are working under a Radical Inquisitor might work, but Malice wants to kill EVERYONE so I doubt that'd count as good guys. I just can't see why any marine that sincerely wants redemption would still be wearing their chaos-y spiky armour, since the whole point of spiking up that armour in the first place is to declare your loyalty to the dark gods.
If you don't care about the redemption/work for the Imperium thing but still want "good CSM", yet also don't want them to oppose the Imperium like the Blood Gorgons do, you could just have a warband of CSM based around the gods' positive traits (relatively speaking) that are in a sector where Imperium presence is minimal and instead spend most of their time defending their chaos worshippers from xenos and dark eldar or something, only fighting the Imperium as a matter of necescity in cases where the Imperium attacks. I suppose the mercenary angle for the Imperium could possibly work in this case but it's hard for me to see why either the Imperium or the Chaos marines would resort to such an arrangement except in the most apocalyptic of cases, and even that's hard to imagine since the Imperium's battle vs Chaos goes beyond life and death situations (IE, in a situation where Chaos and the Imperium would have to team up to survive against the Tyrannids, the Imperium and Chaos people would probably choose death to the Tyrannids, first, because that'd be preferable to fate worse than death that both sides might suffer should they team up, be it due to the corruption of their souls for the Imperium's people or having to face the Dark Gods and explaining why you helped their worse enemy instead of chose death for the Chaos marines)
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/09/21 19:44:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/21 20:01:52
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Guelph Ontario
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You could go with a Red Corsairs style army, with pirates, mercenaries, and "feth the Imperium" Space Marines gone rogue.
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Think of something clever to say. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 04:30:51
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I remember reading about renegade CSM who dont worship chaos, but also does not follow the IOMs rules. Cant remember the names of the top of my head, but the Soul Drinkers is one of them if i remember my fluff right
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 04:39:36
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Elite Tyranid Warrior
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I think the Relictors are like that
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Hive Fleet Lazarus the Undying Swarm
Iron Angels of Khorne
Deathwatch Encyclopedia
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 04:49:36
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch
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Soul drinkers are non chaos non imperial.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 05:09:25
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
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CSM wanting redemption or being mercenaries is okay, but the idea of evil-chaos dudes fighting for the Emperor is kind of iffy (and its also overdone).
edit: Its also fine to have CSM that haven't really done anything that bad (at least by 40k standards). Like, instead of butchering billions of innocent civilians or lighting orphanages on fire, they just could've rebelled against their direction superiors or even gone AWOL.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 05:10:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 05:18:44
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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I'd be careful for this, as this has every possible sign of Mary Sue Boring Chapter of Boring Badasses on it that you can get. Not saying that yours is destined to be a poor product, but you're putting yourself at a severe challenge in making this force seem fitting and believable.
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 05:20:29
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Major
Middle Earth
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Apparently some space marines go rogue and work as mercenaries for corrupt governors and people like that, it was mentioned in one of the ultramarines novels
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 05:40:11
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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One of the Blood Angel successors, I think it's the Blood Knights, have been declared as renegades/traitors for there need for blood. They don't worship chaos, nor turned away from the Imperium, even after the Imperium away from them. Infact, they still fight with other Imperial forces, though the commanding officers of their allies often don't want their help.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 05:40:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 07:32:44
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Blood Knights, Relictors, and Soul Drinkers don't have the spiky armour of the chaos marines. Nor have any of them ever declared their allegiance to Chaos (well, for the Relictors, far as we know, at least). They'd be represented on the tabletop using loyalist marine models for the most part.
The OP wants a team of not-so-evil guys that wear the spiky armour because the OP likes the sinister appearance. Again, any marine that is seeking redemption would ditch the spiky armour immediately, in part because of its sinister appearance in the first place. However, there are other options for not-so-evil CSM. The only ones I can really think of that probably haven't done anything ridiculously despicable though are the Blood Gorgons, and even that I'm not completely sure about (Yea, many CSM like the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords have various standards, but they're still faaaaar more evil than almost anything the Imperium has to offer). I'm not aware of the Blood Gorgons doing anything that could be more evil than what the Imperium does (which is still pretty evil in most other settings, but relative to the rest of the Warhammer 40k setting it isn't). That said, even the Blood Gorgons knowingly serve the Dark Gods (though like the Word Bearers, they're opposed to single-god service, since that enslaves your soul even more than and is even more corrupt than Chaos Undivided), though with more noble intentions, mainly to free people from the tyranny of the Imperium.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/22 07:34:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 07:41:07
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Guelph Ontario
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curran12 wrote:I'd be careful for this, as this has every possible sign of Mary Sue Boring Chapter of Boring Badasses on it that you can get. Not saying that yours is destined to be a poor product, but you're putting yourself at a severe challenge in making this force seem fitting and believable.
I must have missed the part where someone's imagination was supposed to be dictated by verisimilitude and a need to conform to a setting's archetypes. Anything that is different is accused of being Mary Sue boring, but if you're codex compliant, everyone will love it because it doesn't "break the lore."
Dude just said that he wanted suggestions for non Chaotic CSMs, since he likes the models but not the devil worship. Let him be imaginative without throwing a phone book sized document describing exactly how much deviation from Games Workshop's stock factions is acceptable.
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Think of something clever to say. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 15:57:13
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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If you're having difficulty understanding that there is far more to chaos space marines beyond " lol EVIL!" then I recommend reading the Night Lords series of books as they excellently portray what it is like as a chaos space marine without being a mustache twirling cardboard villain.
If that's too long for you, here's a write-up ADB did awhile back detailing what it's like as a CSM. It's long but incredibly informative in its detail:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 17:19:59
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
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jareddm wrote:If you're having difficulty understanding that there is far more to chaos space marines beyond " lol EVIL!" then I recommend reading the Night Lords series of books as they excellently portray what it is like as a chaos space marine without being a mustache twirling cardboard villain. If that's too long for you, here's a write-up ADB did awhile back detailing what it's like as a CSM. It's long but incredibly informative in its detail: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051 That's a good read  Have an Exalt Yeah the whole idea of "Choas iz the evils of 40k" is a misconception, in their own way The imperium is just as evil as Chaos, through their fascist environment and Chaos is considered the Freedom to that over strict regime, some users on Dakka even consider Chaos to be the good guys of 40k it all really depends on the angle you perceive. Its all part of the GRIMDARK, there is no line for a "good" and a "bad" Even the Tau are not considered to be good guys (which a lot of people do think), the only reason why Chaos is really seen as more evil than the IoM is because there methods are seen as alien to us personally and barbaric from our angle.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/22 17:23:21
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
Whatever you use.. It's Cheesy, broken and OP |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 17:42:58
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
New Orleans, LA
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happygolucky wrote:jareddm wrote:If you're having difficulty understanding that there is far more to chaos space marines beyond " lol EVIL!" then I recommend reading the Night Lords series of books as they excellently portray what it is like as a chaos space marine without being a mustache twirling cardboard villain.
If that's too long for you, here's a write-up ADB did awhile back detailing what it's like as a CSM. It's long but incredibly informative in its detail:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051
That's a good read  Have an Exalt
Yeah the whole idea of "Choas iz the evils of 40k" is a misconception, in their own way The imperium is just as evil as Chaos, through their fascist environment and Chaos is considered the Freedom to that over strict regime, some users on Dakka even consider Chaos to be the good guys of 40k it all really depends on the angle you perceive. Its all part of the GRIMDARK, there is no line for a "good" and a "bad" Even the Tau are not considered to be good guys (which a lot of people do think), the only reason why Chaos is really seen as more evil than the IoM is because there methods are seen as alien to us personally and barbaric from our angle.
At least in the current(past 5 years or so that I'm familiar with) background, the forces of Chaos generally(with very few exceptions) *are* portrayed as being the archetypal evildoers. You could make an argument about much of this just comes from poor or uncreative writing, but these are the guys that show up to skin your loved ones alive and feed their souls to their thirsting gods. These are not nice guys and the writers generally make strong attempts to convey this: literal backstabbings, planet-wide slaughters, even their very appearance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 19:10:58
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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I appreciate all the feedback everybody! I kind of like the idea of the rogue marines that don't necessarily worship Chaos but don't serve the Empra either.
My initial thoughts:
Chapter of marines goes dark after many years of faithful service to the Imperium. They get fed up with the bureaucracy of the IoM and they decide they've had enough. The officially help a small system secede from the Imperium, which brings down the might of the Imperium on their heads, most notably a large contingent of Catachan IG and 3 companies of Space Wolves. After a pretty climactic battle, they do what traitor Marines do and flee into the eye of terror. Once inside they are witness to the horrors of the warp and refuse to take sides in the endless battles of the dark gods. They like to think that they are 'different' than any of the other traitor marines and so isolate themselves on a world that they took from a smaller, weaker band of CSM. They attack any other force on sight, except for CSM in service to Tzeentch as they find them to be quite a bit more agreeable for whatever reason.
This leads a standing relationship with the Thousand Sons, who manage to convince the chapter master/chaos lord that the Eye of Terror isn't where these guys need to be, it's right out in real space protecting their system from the Imperium! In fact, the TS are SO supportive, that they will replenish their fleets and send some warriors to help so that the chapter can go do just that. They readily accept the deal as they are quite ready gtfo of the EoT and so strike out to retake their system, getting into several battles along the way.
As they soon learned, time flows differently in the warp, however, so they emerge from the Eye several millennia after the went in. They bear all the appearances of their more evil counterparts but their souls remain intact and their mission secured. They set course in real space for their system which has long-since forgotten the original rebellion but still pays a heavy penance tithe the Imperium and is none to happy about that....even the wealthy live in poverty and mutation and disease run rampant.
Characteristics: These guys are owned by Tzeentch but don't know or simply choose to ignore the fact. Mutations, while rare for a CSM warband are still not uncommon and their psykers seem to have gotten sooooo much more powerful in the time they spent in the eye.
The leaders of the chapter and more senior members have also come to a starting realization: With no recruitment worlds and an absolute refusal to 'recruit' in the same manner as other followers of chaos, the chapter has no hope of survival and will eventually die out. This is, unfortunately, inevitable, but it is something that they chapter leadership shoulders with pride. They will do some serious 'good' before they leave this plane of existence.
Also, side note, they REALLY don't like the Space Wolves or Catachan guard. They seem to have a pretty good relationship with the Dark Eldar however, and no one seems to terribly interested in questioning why that is and why the DE seem so interested in taking SW prisoners....
Thoughts?
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One of them filthy casuals... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 20:55:52
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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Honest opinion?
The secret to the creation of good characters (and a chapter/warband is like this in many respects) is to keep it fairly simple, and to have a clear idea about what motivates them. You have some interesting ideas floating around, but I worry that they jar against each other as they are now.
The Imperium is a pretty nasty institution, so having them rebel for altruistic reasons seems reasonable. I would suggest a single event that could act as a catalyst for this, rather than 'they decide they've had enough'. Perhaps their homeworld was wrongly accused of heresy and subjected to a harsh punishment. Perhaps they themselves were ordered to do something they couldn't stomach. Remember Marines are a pretty zealous bunch to start with, so think hard about their initial character and teachings, and what would make such a rift come about (salamaders for example are quite humanitarian, but for the Night Lords it was their brutal methods in the enforcement of order that led them to a rift with the loyalists).
Secondly, you mentioned an involvement with Tzeentch. Again, simply finding them reasonable is a bit weak. Tzeentch pretty much specialises in leading well-meaning moralists astray, that's what happened to the Thousand Sons, and that's what happened to the Soul Drinkers. Perhaps they accepted a deal with the devil to avenge/save what it was the Imperium threatened, a deal they would presumably come to rue. They could be in service to Tzeentch reluctantly rather than being uber evil zealots. Alternatively, Tzeentch could have simply engineered the plight that caused them to go rogue. Or both! To avoid mary-sueism, remember that you don't f**k Tzeentzch. Tzeentch f**ks you. Being fooled into betrayal, harming the ones you meant to save all makes for a great tragic villain/anti hero.
A final thing to consider is when you turned traitor. How old was your chapter before its dissent?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 21:37:09
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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WildeThing wrote:Honest opinion?
The secret to the creation of good characters (and a chapter/warband is like this in many respects) is to keep it fairly simple, and to have a clear idea about what motivates them. You have some interesting ideas floating around, but I worry that they jar against each other as they are now.
Cool. I'm going to try and refine it quite a bit more until I get a story that motivates me enough to want to flesh the guys out on the tabletop.
WildeThing wrote:The Imperium is a pretty nasty institution, so having them rebel for altruistic reasons seems reasonable. I would suggest a single event that could act as a catalyst for this, rather than 'they decide they've had enough'. Perhaps their homeworld was wrongly accused of heresy and subjected to a harsh punishment. Perhaps they themselves were ordered to do something they couldn't stomach. Remember Marines are a pretty zealous bunch to start with, so think hard about their initial character and teachings, and what would make such a rift come about (salamaders for example are quite humanitarian, but for the Night Lords it was their brutal methods in the enforcement of order that led them to a rift with the loyalists).
A while back I had toyed with the idea of a chapter of marines discovering a large cult on their homeworld and primary recruiting world. This world was also half hive world, and the marines recruited actively from the gangs of the underhive. The chapter had already been depleted from a series of involvements against X enemy (nids, elder?) and were down to about 5ish companies of marines. The Imperium decided that that wasn't enough and so sent a reclamation force led by some Space Wolves captain who upon arrival decided that the threat was to great to overcome and ordered exterminatus on the planet. All this despite the marines saying that they had the situation well in hand and that such a waste of materials and innocent lives was tantamount to heresy. The exerminatus was carried out anyway, and the marines came to blows with the reclamation force over the destruction of their homeworld. That didn't work out so well for our heroes, and so they fled into the EoT vowing revenge on the Space Wolves for their direct contribution and on the Imperium for not trusting them to do their job.
WildeThing wrote:Secondly, you mentioned an involvement with Tzeentch. Again, simply finding them reasonable is a bit weak. Tzeentch pretty much specialises in leading well-meaning moralists astray, that's what happened to the Thousand Sons, and that's what happened to the Soul Drinkers. Perhaps they accepted a deal with the devil to avenge/save what it was the Imperium threatened, a deal they would presumably come to rue. They could be in service to Tzeentch reluctantly rather than being uber evil zealots. Alternatively, Tzeentch could have simply engineered the plight that caused them to go rogue. Or both! To avoid mary-sueism, remember that you don't f**k Tzeentzch. Tzeentch f** ks you. Being fooled into betrayal, harming the ones you meant to save all makes for a great tragic villain/anti hero.
I like the way you put that. So Tzeentch is basically behind the cult from the above plotline, or maybe the changeling was the SW captain. Tzeentch has set things in motion that lead up to the marines coming out of the eye to attack SW fleets, forces and important hive worlds. I'm trying to figure out a way for the marines to not actively understand that they are in service to Tzeentch. Any mutation in the army is (according to the marines) just a result of exposure to the eye of terror and NOT a blessing from a dark patron. Any increase in physical or psychic power is explained away in the same manner. There are whispered fears that they are becoming corrupted, but they refuse to believe such things and so continue on the course that they have set before them. That said, I couldn't ally with demons and I couldn't have demon princes or tradition 'demonic' units in the army. This may handicap me a bit, but I can deal with that. This is just a force to have some fun with any way. I will either have to get good with 'counts as' representations or just forget those units all together. They don't mix traditionally with other CSM but the Thousand Sons have convinced them that they are all misunderstood and that the Space Wolves are really the root of all evil, so enemy of my enemy kind of thing.
WildeThing wrote:A final thing to consider is when you turned traitor. How old was your chapter before its dissent?
I had thought about them being one of the cursed 21st founding, but I think that may be too cliché. If I went that route it would explain the Imperium's eagerness to just exterminate the chapter's homeworld rather than chance it. Soooo....M36? 2000 years of faithful service and then another 2000 years in the warp and now they've emerged at the tail end of the black crusade to go pursue their own agenda. Thoughts?
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One of them filthy casuals... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/22 22:21:43
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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Yeah that all sounds pretty cool!
So as I understand it so far, the story could go something like this:
- Tzeentch cults are discovered on their homeworld.
- Space Wolves, with their longstanding hatred of Tzeentch (think Prospero Burns), and usual unrefined approach, butcher countless innocents in their persecution of the traitors.
- Your chapter returns to its homeworld from a bloody campaign, hoping to recruit new initiates, and find this mess.
- You insist in enforcing law yourself, but the atrocities enacted by the space wolves lead to a rapidly deteriorating situation. Previously loyal citizens take up arms, and the planet is doomed to exterminatus.
- You retaliate, but with your already depleted numbers you stand no chance against the wolves and are beaten back into the eye of terror.
- This of course was Tzeentch's plan all along, and his reason for spawning the cults!
- Once in the eye, Tzeentch's hold over you grows ever stronger, your hatred for the Wolves and the Imperium making you the perfect pawn for Tzeentch's own revenge on the sons of Russ (perhaps some 1kson sorceror is Tzeentch's agent in all of this...)
- Although you are in denial, you grow gradually more corrupt and, well, chaosy!
- The timescale seems about right, plus a lot can happen in 2000 years, making an originally noble-minded renegade chapter into a bunch of chaosy degenerates, even if they are in denial about it!
As for how to represent this force on the tabletop, it seems fair to use the mark of Tzeentch on things (they just refuse to believe it's there). The cool thing is the tzeentch inv save boost is supposed to represent him twisting fate to save his pawns for another fate: totally in keeping with your story. I am not a Chaos player, but this shouldn't handicap you too much. Tzeentch termies seem like a good idea. Warbands are supposed to be a mixed bag: as you said, cultist troops could be some quite believable 1kson allies, and there is no strong reason not to pick up mercenaries like obliterators to suit your further ends.
All in all it sounds like a fun idea.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 22:23:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/23 01:29:56
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
You'll find me in the mind's eye
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curran12 wrote:I'd be careful for this, as this has every possible sign of Mary Sue Boring Chapter of Boring Badasses on it that you can get. Not saying that yours is destined to be a poor product, but you're putting yourself at a severe challenge in making this force seem fitting and believable.
No one else seems to think this, so where do you get off having such a defined "this can only be bad" opinion?
In regards to the topic the Red Corsairs could be a base if you want to go "Non evil or non seal clubbing evil" or Soul Drinkers if you want to go "feth the imperium, help the citizens".
But in general once Chaos has you, you wont be able to step away. So it's already kinda unfluffy. It's a big galaxy though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/24 08:41:47
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Relictors , as mentioned previous are your best bet for this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/24 13:52:34
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I think a crucial point is that the loyal but otherwise chaotic looking CSM need to be a little nieve. They might work with Tzeench and Tsons but they arent going to know exactly how evil they are or their history.
They would probably find it easier to work with recently fallen CSM rather than any of the Traitor Legions. They might work with CSM who worship a god but they would probably be in denial about it.
We have the third person point of view, so we know who everyone is. Few people in the 40k universe know who everyone is. Most humans cannot tell the difference between Dark Eldar and Craftword Eldar, hell most dont even know that eldar exist. Most humans have only a vague idea of what chaos is, they arent going to know the gods of the chaos pantheon. Even space marines are only going to know a little: Basics like there are traitor marines from 9 different legions. There are other traitors. Those traitors worship false gods(so they think). There are daemons. Things like that. Most space marines arent going to know what a bloodthirster is, it is just gonna be some big nasty daemon.
So if your chapter is working with Tsons. I expect they need to be under the assumption that the Tsons are not actually from one of the traitor legions of the HH. They probably think they are from some lost founding that got excommunicated. They also probably are going to think it weird that they never see the rank and file take off their armor. But that could also be explained by the loyal leader of your chapter ordering no fraternizing between the ranks and units.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/24 17:18:10
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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TiamatRoar wrote: as opposed to the warped idea of "freedom" that other chaos marines have
Freedom in servitude to the dark gods is freedom enough! *angry face*
But back on topic, it can work.
You can use IG soldiers for cultists, and have the boons of chaos thing written in as a sad accident of being exiled from the IOM.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/24 17:27:07
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Selym wrote:TiamatRoar wrote: as opposed to the warped idea of "freedom" that other chaos marines have
Freedom in servitude to the dark gods is freedom enough! *angry face*
Or night lords Freedom, who dont actively worship chaos, just enjoy doing what they want when they want.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/25 14:40:48
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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I agree with everything Exergy said, except for one point. Whilst most humans would know little about the varieties of daemons and aliens, I expect space marines would be a little better versed. I think they would definitely know their own history to the point where they would absolutely recognise one of the original traitor legions. I think in this case, this newly fallen chapter could come to sympathise with the thousand sons if it was told their side of the story, espescially regarding their history with space wolves. Tzeentch can be very pesuasive and would use this to his ends.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/25 22:11:32
Subject: 'Grey Area' CSM
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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WildeThing wrote:I agree with everything Exergy said, except for one point. Whilst most humans would know little about the varieties of daemons and aliens, I expect space marines would be a little better versed. I think they would definitely know their own history to the point where they would absolutely recognise one of the original traitor legions. I think in this case, this newly fallen chapter could come to sympathise with the thousand sons if it was told their side of the story, espescially regarding their history with space wolves. Tzeentch can be very pesuasive and would use this to his ends.
We dont even know the 2 of the original 20 legions. The Alpha legion has been declared exterminated, what 12 times? No one knows that Alpharius has a twin.
The fact that the Dark Angels secret remains a secret is because few outside the Dark Angels can identify the fallen as anything other than regular CSM.
With the amount of mutation and modification the CSM have undergone I doubt most space marines would be able to tell most traitors apart.
The space wolves might be able to tell a Tson from a regular CSM, but I doubt they could tell a word bearer from an Iron Warrior.
The Imperial Fists might be able to tell an Iron Warrior from a regular CSM, but could they tell a Death Guard from some other sort of Plague Marine or even just a CSM with MoN?
Different chapters and legions would have different information, and they all together, summed would know about what we know, but individually they might have trouble discerning a Bloodthirster from a Keeper of Secrets. It would get even more complicated when you think that a lot of daemons even of the same god look different and some purposely disguise themselves.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/26 00:17:38
Subject: Re:'Grey Area' CSM
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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We dont even know the 2 of the original 20 legions. The Alpha legion has been declared exterminated, what 12 times? No one knows that Alpharius has a twin.
The fact that the Dark Angels secret remains a secret is because few outside the Dark Angels can identify the fallen as anything other than regular CSM.
There are plenty of mysteries like this and I agree generally with your point about the 3rd person perspective we have, and that we tend to forget it is not a perspective available to characters within the 40k universe.
However I would still contend that in most cases, virtually all SM chapters, however old, would know of the founding legions, and which ones turned traitor. Sure a particularly pulpy death guard might be hard to tell apart from another nurglite, and a lot of the fragmented warbands would be anyone's guess, but I think faced with the heraldry and insignia of a traitor legion any space marine would know who they were facing. Its just that ingrained in their own history.
Tzeentch is a slippery one, but I expect the Thousand Sons would have to try harder than painting their armour blue and yellow to escape identification.
This is my interpretation, feel free to entirely disagree though! It's just fiction after all, and a fiction that has developed and undergone many changes, especially with all of the new Horus Heresy lore.
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