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PhantomViper wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I can't think of anything in the world that couldn't be improved in some way. Why 40k should be singled out for this I don't know.

LOL! You can't be serious. They are a GAMING company. Regardless of what else goes on in the world, if they continuously put out codexes with obvious errors, with sloppy language that raises issues practically the moment they are released, then yes they should be criticized for this. GW is not even close to perfection (and no one is demanding this). They are SLOPPY.

You mean like how EA released Sim City and no one could play it? Or how games are shipped with bugs so bad they wreck the game? GW is hardly alone in this market of shipping things that are far from perfect. It doesn't stop people from buying the products and even having fun with them though.

So just because other companies do mediocre things, GW's clients should also settle for mediocrity? Is that what you are saying?

That instead of comparing itself with the best examples of its own industry, the market leaders of the miniature wargaming industry are taking their cues from the mistakes of other companies?

No, of course not. The point is we can't pretend GW is alone in this bad decision making program.

EDIT: And it seems despite what I was hoping would provide context that it wasn't clear enough. My response was to point out that GW isn't alone with this problem and it's an issue that's rampant in pretty much every industry, including games, not to try and justify GW for anything.

ClockworkZion wrote:

No, of course not. The point is we can't pretend GW is alone in this bad decision making program.

EDIT: And it seems despite what I was hoping would provide context that it wasn't clear enough. My response was to point out that GW isn't alone with this problem and it's an issue that's rampant in pretty much every industry, including games, not to try and justify GW for anything.

Nobody thinks that GW is the only company in the world that releases sub-par product. But the fact that some other companies also do it is no reason to just accept it without complaint...

Super Newb wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I can't think of anything in the world that couldn't be improved in some way. Why 40k should be singled out for this I don't know.

LOL! You can't be serious. They are a GAMING company. Regardless of what else goes on in the world, if they continuously put out codexes with obvious errors, with sloppy language that raises issues practically the moment they are released, then yes they should be criticized for this. GW is not even close to perfection (and no one is demanding this). They are SLOPPY.

When Skyrim was released I had to cheat and use the console just to advance in the game. As it is there is an entire city that is out to kill me simply because of a glitch in the game. Yet it is still lauded as a fantastic game, 9/10 on reviews etc.

By contrast 40k has rules problems that crop up once every 20 games and it's an unplayable mess. They are clearly not "sloppy" rules, or so many people wouldn't enjoy them. Such needless exaggeration only weakens your point since it makes you look deranged.

 insaniak wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

No, of course not. The point is we can't pretend GW is alone in this bad decision making program.

EDIT: And it seems despite what I was hoping would provide context that it wasn't clear enough. My response was to point out that GW isn't alone with this problem and it's an issue that's rampant in pretty much every industry, including games, not to try and justify GW for anything.

Nobody thinks that GW is the only company in the world that releases sub-par product. But the fact that some other companies also do it is no reason to just accept it without complaint...

Also, when other companies do it, typically they listen to the negative feedback they receive and make at least some adjustment to their policies to address those customer concerns.

GW does not do this. Just as an example, they still haven't released an updated FAQ for the WHFB DoC army book that addresses the dozens of questions submitted by several different groups. The one they released a month after the book came out had around four answers, and only one of them was for a question that was actually frequently asked.

xruslanx wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I can't think of anything in the world that couldn't be improved in some way. Why 40k should be singled out for this I don't know.

LOL! You can't be serious. They are a GAMING company. Regardless of what else goes on in the world, if they continuously put out codexes with obvious errors, with sloppy language that raises issues practically the moment they are released, then yes they should be criticized for this. GW is not even close to perfection (and no one is demanding this). They are SLOPPY.

When Skyrim was released I had to cheat and use the console just to advance in the game. As it is there is an entire city that is out to kill me simply because of a glitch in the game. Yet it is still lauded as a fantastic game, 9/10 on reviews etc.

By contrast 40k has rules problems that crop up once every 20 games and it's an unplayable mess. They are clearly not "sloppy" rules, or so many people wouldn't enjoy them. Such needless exaggeration only weakens your point since it makes you look deranged.

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

xruslanx wrote:
By contrast 40k has rules problems that crop up once every 20 games and it's an unplayable mess. They are clearly not "sloppy" rules, or so many people wouldn't enjoy them. Such needless exaggeration only weakens your point since it makes you look deranged.

With my WHFB Daemons of Codex army, there are rules issues that come up literally every game. In every single game, I have to discuss with my opponent how they wish to play things before hand so as to avoid disagreements later. For the sake of avoiding confrontation, I just agree to whatever interpretation my opponent wants, regardless of whether or not it puts me at a disadvantage.

My gaming experience would be far better if the rules were written more clearly with fewer conflicts to other rules.

Edit: corrected a typographical error.

 insaniak wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

No, of course not. The point is we can't pretend GW is alone in this bad decision making program.

EDIT: And it seems despite what I was hoping would provide context that it wasn't clear enough. My response was to point out that GW isn't alone with this problem and it's an issue that's rampant in pretty much every industry, including games, not to try and justify GW for anything.

Nobody thinks that GW is the only company in the world that releases sub-par product. But the fact that some other companies also do it is no reason to just accept it without complaint...

I never said people shouldn't complain, I was just pointing out that criticizing GW because they're a gaming company who screws up is a bit of a weak argument when we should be doing this with ANY company that's legitimately screwed up.

Here's the thing about computer/console->Tabletop comparisons: For a Tabletop game, the rules need to say that a model can move 6". The player can then move the model 6". For the Digital system, it must claim 6" movement, and then have some rules for the graphics, pathing, etc. So the tabletop game has fewer rules, and can simply rely on the human brain to fill in the blanks. Ergo, they should not screw up as much as a computer game, as they have fewer rules. Yet somehow 6th ed has all the fun of stupid pathing glitches without a computer.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

No, of course not. The point is we can't pretend GW is alone in this bad decision making program.

EDIT: And it seems despite what I was hoping would provide context that it wasn't clear enough. My response was to point out that GW isn't alone with this problem and it's an issue that's rampant in pretty much every industry, including games, not to try and justify GW for anything.

Nobody thinks that GW is the only company in the world that releases sub-par product. But the fact that some other companies also do it is no reason to just accept it without complaint...

I never said people shouldn't complain, I was just pointing out that criticizing GW because they're a gaming company who screws up is a bit of a weak argument when we should be doing this with ANY company that's legitimately screwed up.

Then everyone point out they do, your just on the wrong forum it see it.

ClockworkZion wrote:

I never said people shouldn't complain, I was just pointing out that criticizing GW because they're a gaming company who screws up is a bit of a weak argument when we should be doing this with ANY company that's legitimately screwed up.

And...? People do. Just not generally in threads talking specifically about GW. The flaws of, say, the new iPhone aren't particularly relevant on a forum dedicated to miniature wargaming, in a discussion about one particular company's rules.

I feel like I should add my two cents on this.....

If the rules were tight for both Warhammer 40k and Fantasy, then there would not be as much with the topics started and the replies. And if you look in the Warmahordes section, the replies are usually one to two post rather than pages long.

 insaniak wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

I never said people shouldn't complain, I was just pointing out that criticizing GW because they're a gaming company who screws up is a bit of a weak argument when we should be doing this with ANY company that's legitimately screwed up.

And...? People do. Just not generally in threads talking specifically about GW. The flaws of, say, the new iPhone aren't particularly relevant on a forum dedicated to miniature wargaming, in a discussion about one particular company's rules.

I was initially responding to a post that was emphasizing they were a "GAMING" company as if that was the reason people should complain. Industry shouldn't be the justification, being screw ups should be.

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

xruslanx wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I can't think of anything in the world that couldn't be improved in some way. Why 40k should be singled out for this I don't know.

LOL! You can't be serious. They are a GAMING company. Regardless of what else goes on in the world, if they continuously put out codexes with obvious errors, with sloppy language that raises issues practically the moment they are released, then yes they should be criticized for this. GW is not even close to perfection (and no one is demanding this). They are SLOPPY.

When Skyrim was released I had to cheat and use the console just to advance in the game. As it is there is an entire city that is out to kill me simply because of a glitch in the game. Yet it is still lauded as a fantastic game, 9/10 on reviews etc.

By contrast 40k has rules problems that crop up once every 20 games and it's an unplayable mess. They are clearly not "sloppy" rules, or so many people wouldn't enjoy them. Such needless exaggeration only weakens your point since it makes you look deranged.

How do you trace line of sight for models without eyes?
GW has left that flawed rule alone for a long time. That's one of many.

The thing is - some of their rules that have holes in them also have either obvious intent, or take some thinking to figure out that there's an issue. That's worse than a glaring hole in the rules IMO.
The FNP+EWvsID thing has been around a while as well and just recently got addressed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

GWs FAQs are a joke. They leave pretty big questions unanswered - and I know they know about them because I email them regularly.

rigeld2 wrote:

How do you trace line of sight for models without eyes?
GW has left that flawed rule alone for a long time. That's one of many.

Lol. I take my hat off to you sir, you have destroyed your own validity more surely than I ever could.

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

Cause, you know how amazingly helpful that last Chaos Daemon FAQ was.

xruslanx wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

How do you trace line of sight for models without eyes?
GW has left that flawed rule alone for a long time. That's one of many.

Lol. I take my hat off to you sir, you have destroyed your own validity more surely than I ever could.

Please explain how my validity suffers. You said you rarely ever run into issues - I was informing you that you do run into issues literally every game, people just ignore many of them.
And that's a problem.

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

My copy of Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas have been completely playable since day 1. I've never had any bugs or issues with my games. That doesn't mean I'm willfully blind to the fact that they do exist. The difference at this point becomes how often these patches, faqs, erratas, etc... are released
Bethesda and GW both release 'patches' to their games, 1 company does these in a regular manner, and the other releases a new update every 6 months if we're lucky. To put this in perspective, I play Chaos Space Marines, for the longest time it was argued that Abaddon couldn't join another unit with a mark of chaos because he had all of the marks, so his Mark of Nurgle would prevent him from joining a Mark of Tzeentch unit, etc... GW took 6 months to answer this issue. 6 months of people arguing and bickering. Besthesda took care of minor issues that were plaguing people in Skyrim and appeasing people until they could release an update that fixed how horribly broken crafting was in the game. Tonight I can go home and I can play Skyrim and expect 0 issues, and 0 questions about how something should work. I can play 40k this Friday and expect at least 5 rules discussions about various things.

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

GW's FAQs are typically released months or year(s) after the relevant text was released, if ever. They typically avoid answering very large issues while answering issues that nobody else ever thought were worth answering. It is very common for a GW FAQ answer to be in direct conflict with other rules or FAQs. It's also not uncommon for GW to release a subsequent FAQ months later than directly contradicts previous FAQs.

Again, look at the WHFB DoC FAQ. The only question anyone was actually asking that they answered was dealing with the Reign of Comedy table. It's been 6 months since that was released and no further information about that book's issues have been addressed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also want to point out that arguments about video games are a red herring.

Most of the issues that arrise from video games aren't inherent to the nature of the game itself. It has to do with the wide variety of different systems and hardware that exist across the potential customer base. Often times, a software game company doesn't know which system conflicts will exist until people start reporting them. A responsible software game company will take in this feedback and develop patches to fix the situation, and then disseminate those patches to their customers in a timely fashion.

GW's rules issues are the equivalent to dirty code that causes small to large issues in the vast majority of operating system and hardware configurations that don't make the game crash but cause repeated issues that detract from the playability to one degree or another. GW's response to these issues is analagous to a software company that only releases patches once or twice per year, and doesn't necessarily patch the issues that were most complained about by the customers.

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

But unlike GW, Bethesda patches and updates their games in a regular manner to remove negative play experiences.

GW releases FAQs. You can choose to pretend that the minor issues these FAQs don't address are game-breakingly bad, or you cannot. But please don't be dishonest enough to claim that GW do not actively try to resolve rules problems via FAQs.

Similarly you can pretend that a fully patched Bethesda game is completely playable, but that won't make it true.

My copy of Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas have been completely playable since day 1. I've never had any bugs or issues with my games. That doesn't mean I'm willfully blind to the fact that they do exist. The difference at this point becomes how often these patches, faqs, erratas, etc... are released
Bethesda and GW both release 'patches' to their games, 1 company does these in a regular manner, and the other releases a new update every 6 months if we're lucky. To put this in perspective, I play Chaos Space Marines, for the longest time it was argued that Abaddon couldn't join another unit with a mark of chaos because he had all of the marks, so his Mark of Nurgle would prevent him from joining a Mark of Tzeentch unit, etc... GW took 6 months to answer this issue. 6 months of people arguing and bickering. Besthesda took care of minor issues that were plaguing people in Skyrim and appeasing people until they could release an update that fixed how horribly broken crafting was in the game. Tonight I can go home and I can play Skyrim and expect 0 issues, and 0 questions about how something should work. I can play 40k this Friday and expect at least 5 rules discussions about various things.

You got lucky with Skyrim then. I had at least two main plot developments that failed to trigger, meaning I had to open the console and do it myself. And putting the problem into google revealed that others had the problem too, hence why a console solution existed. There was also a quest in a city (I can't remember exactly, something about helping some dudes break out of a mine and take over the city) that every single time would result in all the guards in the city turning hostile and attacking you for the rest of the game. Whoops.

Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

There is nothing I like more than beating dead horses.

 pities2004 wrote:
There is nothing I like more than beating dead horses.

It's just the gift that keeps on giving.

 snurl wrote:
The rules are great for starting arguments.

Your words are a window into my mind.

xruslanx wrote:
You got lucky with Skyrim then. I had at least two main plot developments that failed to trigger, meaning I had to open the console and do it myself. And putting the problem into google revealed that others had the problem too, hence why a console solution existed. There was also a quest in a city (I can't remember exactly, something about helping some dudes break out of a mine and take over the city) that every single time would result in all the guards in the city turning hostile and attacking you for the rest of the game. Whoops.

Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

And that bug was fixed because one of my friends got that, loaded a previous save file and came back to that quest after they got it fixed. Please tell me where GW was quick on providing fixes?

You do realize how easy it is to update a pdf and upload it to a webserver right? It takes minutes if you're a trained monkey, and seconds if you're a semi-competent human. Hell I could patch parts of the SM codex in seconds. "All shooting is done at the same time, multiple immobilization results from the same unit firing Grav guns doesn't remove additional hull points. 2 Grav gun hits will only remove 3 hull points if the vehicle was immobilized before the unit fired at it." or, "Does 2 grave gun hits remove 3 hull points? Answer: Yes" bam, second to answer those issues. Or ya know they could have actually playtested this crap before the pushed out to us in a 60 dollar codex.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
There is nothing I like more than beating dead horses.

It's just the gift that keeps on giving.

exalted times 1000

 pities2004 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
There is nothing I like more than beating dead horses.

It's just the gift that keeps on giving.

exalted times 1000

Like herpes! Nurgle's gift!

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
You got lucky with Skyrim then. I had at least two main plot developments that failed to trigger, meaning I had to open the console and do it myself. And putting the problem into google revealed that others had the problem too, hence why a console solution existed. There was also a quest in a city (I can't remember exactly, something about helping some dudes break out of a mine and take over the city) that every single time would result in all the guards in the city turning hostile and attacking you for the rest of the game. Whoops.

Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

And that bug was fixed because one of my friends got that, loaded a previous save file and came back to that quest after they got it fixed. Please tell me where GW was quick on providing fixes?

Day 1 FAQs. Can't get much quicker than that.

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
You got lucky with Skyrim then. I had at least two main plot developments that failed to trigger, meaning I had to open the console and do it myself. And putting the problem into google revealed that others had the problem too, hence why a console solution existed. There was also a quest in a city (I can't remember exactly, something about helping some dudes break out of a mine and take over the city) that every single time would result in all the guards in the city turning hostile and attacking you for the rest of the game. Whoops.

Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

And that bug was fixed because one of my friends got that, loaded a previous save file and came back to that quest after they got it fixed. Please tell me where GW was quick on providing fixes?

Day 1 FAQs. Can't get much quicker than that.

Technically the Eldar codex that came out before the release of the book was quicker than that. Also releasing a Day 1 FAQ that solves 1 of 12 issues doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about their ability to catch things, especially when the other 11 are solved over a period of 2 to 5 years.

Please just answer me this question, have you played non-GW games?

xruslanx wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
You got lucky with Skyrim then. I had at least two main plot developments that failed to trigger, meaning I had to open the console and do it myself. And putting the problem into google revealed that others had the problem too, hence why a console solution existed. There was also a quest in a city (I can't remember exactly, something about helping some dudes break out of a mine and take over the city) that every single time would result in all the guards in the city turning hostile and attacking you for the rest of the game. Whoops.

Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

And that bug was fixed because one of my friends got that, loaded a previous save file and came back to that quest after they got it fixed. Please tell me where GW was quick on providing fixes?

Day 1 FAQs. Can't get much quicker than that.

You do realise those day 1 FAQs in this context are not a good thing as they are things that should have never made it to print.

If GW actually bothered to break their own codexes with proper playtesting, a lot of these issues would never get through.

xruslanx wrote:


Contrast this to 40k where 99% of problems can be resolved in a few seconds. 40k certainly is more "polished" than Skyrim.

I think it's a bit of a misnomer to compare something with the complexity of a modern computer game, which takes dozens of skilled workers in various disciplines years to produce in the case of skyrim, to a tabletop wargame. Surely it's sufficient to just compare it to other tabletop games within the same industry? When measured by that standard, they inevitably fall short to any except those who have only played GW games and so know no different.