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Shotguns, oh how I hate thee, you need a little something to capture the true spirit of the Boomstick.

Shotguns = Range: 18''/12''/6'' Strength: 3/4/5 AP: - Type: Assault 2, Buckshot, Point Blank.

Buckshot: For every 6'' closer you are to the target the weapons Strength increases by 1 as well as always counting there BS as +1 when firering Overwatch. Note; shots from this weapon will always counts as strength 3 vs vehicles.

Point Blank: You may substitute your normal attacks in the assault phase for one with the following profile: Range: - Strength: 6 AP: 6 Type: melee, Buckshot, Shred.

I personally thought it should use the flamer template.
But that's just me. How much would it cost?

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
I personally thought it should use the flamer template.
But that's just me. How much would it cost?

Flamer template makes zero sense.

I personally think shotguns should just be S4 Range 12" Assault 2 for Guardsmen as a vet upgrade for a few more points.

Combine the above with a +1 BS on overwatch makes it very reasonable for how a shotgun function, and keeping it very simple, while boosting it a touch.

Let vets have it for +1 or 2 pts per model.

I think those were over done. A bump to 18 inches is probably all they need, maybe some ammo types. Slugs as St 4 and AP 5 or 6, Buckshot as St 3, AP - but Twin-linked or Shred.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Shotguns, oh how I hate thee, you need a little something to capture the true spirit of the Boomstick.

Shotguns = Range: 18''/12''/6'' Strength: 3/4/5 AP: - Type: Assault 2, Buckshot, Point Blank.

Buckshot: For every 6'' closer you are to the target the weapons Strength increases by 1 as well as always counting there BS as +1 when firering Overwatch. Note; shots from this weapon will always counts as strength 3 vs vehicles.

Point Blank: You may substitute your normal attacks in the assault phase for one with the following profile: Range: - Strength: 6 AP: 6 Type: melee, Buckshot, Shred.

God no. Shotguns are actually fairly fine as they are, just give them +1 BS on overwatch or whatever. They are meant as close combat weapons, giving you a few shots before closing with the enemy. That is their whole point. They shouldn't be a template, that makes no sense, they shouldn't be rape machines that can tear through Nobz and marines. They should be strength 3 (4 for marines) Assault 2, and hit on a 5+ in overwatch. You wanna charge with your scouts or IG vets? Take a few shots before closing the gap, that is what you are getting for free.

Revised:

Shotguns = Range: 18'' Strength: 3/4 AP: - Type: Assault 2, Buckshot, Point Blank.

Buckshot: at half range the weapons Strength increases by 1 as well as always counting there BS as +1 when firering Overwatch. Note; shots from this weapon will always counts as strength 3 vs vehicles.

Point Blank: You may substitute your normal attacks in the assault phase for one with the following profile: Range: - Strength: 5 AP: - Type: melee, Buckshot, Shred.

I think this is a fair balence, currently scouts have no reason to use them over pistols, and seriously i had no intention for vet guard why youd assault with them is any ones guess... i dont think nobs have much no worry about in an assault with some guardsmen...at least the bonus to overwatch could prevent some charges.

Make them count as CCW (like a Pistol) and e.g. a 1-2 points per Marine buy for Scouts.

Not sure why the rules need to be so complicated for what is to be such a basic weapon. Going rules light and giving the weapon two types of ammunition is easiest and most realistic. If you want that enhanced Overwatch available, the shotgun being Twin-Linked when it fires Buckshot would provide that. During Overwatch the reroll would effectively make them BS 2 anyway.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
I personally thought it should use the flamer template.
But that's just me. How much would it cost?

Flamer template makes zero sense.

I thought is would work well with the sense of bullets flying everywhere.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
I personally thought it should use the flamer template.
But that's just me. How much would it cost?

Flamer template makes zero sense.

I thought is would work well with the sense of bullets flying everywhere.

A stubber, a basic stubber mounted on a tank puts more lead down range covering a larger area than any shotgun could ever hope to achieve.

People have this misconception that shotguns become ineffective past 10 feet from some video games. Shotguns will still have relatively small spreads past 50 feet (spreads of no more several inches across, depending on the shot), and you can have slugs that fire a solid mass instead of many pellets.

Shotguns have the advantage of being very robust and simple to operate, while being easier to hit targets at short/mid range due to the enhanced spread over rifles, and the immense stopping power but lack penetration.

Shotguns do not ignore cover, or cover the area with any more lead than any other rapid fire rifle. The template in 40k represents a weapon that bathes an area in flaming liquid, or gaseous death that settles in every nook and cranny and may actively turn your cover against you.

Shotguns are fine as somewhere between 12-18" Assault 2 weapons, with one or two firing modes with strengths of either S3 or S4, and one or two special rules like enhanced overwatch.

Pretty much, yeah. I only suggested 18 because Pistols were 12. Pistols should really be only 6 or 8.

Jefffar wrote:
Pretty much, yeah. I only suggested 18 because Pistols were 12. Pistols should really be only 6 or 8.

why?

Pistols are really, really short ranged weapons is why. While some marksmen can pull of pretty long shots with them, they really are only useful out to about 10 meters at most, experts can stretch that out under ideal circumstances, but even for them at 50 meters hitting becomes almost impossible. Compare that with an assault rifle that has an effective range of about 300 to 500 meters.

So even with a best case comparison, a pistol reaching half as far as a rifle being really generous to the pistol.

I understand that pistols are short ranged but your comparing them to rifles not shotguns. Most shotguns will be effective at slightly better range than a pistol but not too much greater.
Besides in game terms a 6" shooting attack with low stats and no special rules (most of the time) is negligible so its 12" for simplicity.

I thought pistols had the same stats as their rifle versions, like S4 bolt pistols and S3 laspistols.
But the reason the shotgun has slightly better range than the pistol is because the spread makes up for the accuracy issues to a certain extent. The studies I read put hand guns at 50m max effective range, shotguns at 75m max effective range, and rifles at several hundred meters.
So probably a better representation would be
Pistols 6" range (used only when in close quarters)
shotguns 9" range
standard rifle weapons 24" rapid fire because even at half distance they are longer range than either shotgun or pistol.

This is why I prefer things like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, when different weapon types can be better fleshed out and have unique affects. I'd imagine that shotguns and pistols would probably deserve some special rules for a more urban setting, but in a head to head open field battle I don't see the advantage.

I liked in Necromunda how shotguns could take different types of ammo based on the situation (comparable to buckshot vs slug). Probably too granular for a full 40k battle though.

Jefffar wrote:
Pistols are really, really short ranged weapons is why. While some marksmen can pull of pretty long shots with them, they really are only useful out to about 10 meters at most, experts can stretch that out under ideal circumstances, but even for them at 50 meters hitting becomes almost impossible. Compare that with an assault rifle that has an effective range of about 300 to 500 meters.

So even with a best case comparison, a pistol reaching half as far as a rifle being really generous to the pistol.

I think that comes back to the 'sliding scale' of 40k ranges. 12" (pistols, shotguns) on the table is maybe 20-50 meters in 'reality', 24" (rifles, grenade launchers) is something like 100-300 meters, 36" (sniper rifles, HMGs) is maybe a kilometer or more, 48" (missiles, autocannons) possibly a couple of kilometers, 72" (battlecannons) could be around four or five kilometres and 240" (Earthshaker artillery) is maybe dozens of kilometres.

Yeah, it is an abstraction to be sure. I do think that the Shotgun should have a heftier range than the Pistol though.

Jefffar wrote:
Yeah, it is an abstraction to be sure. I do think that the Shotgun should have a heftier range than the Pistol though.

Well, real shotguns tend to have better effective range than real pistols, but I think that most things classed as 'pistols' in 40k would be closer to PDWs or compact SMGs in real life.