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Assault is finally not objectively better than shooting for the first time since 2nd edition.

Internet dumbasses misinterpret that as "worthless" now that they are on equal footing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Internet dumbasses misinterpret that as "worthless" now that they are on equal footing.

That's so funny. How many turns of shooting does your army take prior to being able to shoot?

Equal footing is a joke. Assault was not objectively better in 5th either. The top armies were exceptional at shooting and capable at assaulting. And won games by shooting, not assaulting.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Internet dumbasses misinterpret that as "worthless" now that they are on equal footing.

That's so funny. How many turns of shooting does your army take prior to being able to shoot?

Equal footing is a joke. Assault was not objectively better in 5th either. The top armies were exceptional at shooting and capable at assaulting. And won games by shooting, not assaulting.

It's almost like these people don't read even a single page of threads as I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Assault is finally not objectively better than shooting for the first time since 2nd edition.

Internet dumbasses misinterpret that as "worthless" now that they are on equal footing.

I guess you missed 5th edition.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Assault is finally not objectively better than shooting for the first time since 2nd edition.

Internet dumbasses misinterpret that as "worthless" now that they are on equal footing.

I guess you missed 5th edition.

I think he even missed 4th, 4th edition was the Skimmerspam edition! (Tau Fish of Fury, and Eldar Falconspam with various other shooting) Sure if you got into melee in 4th you'd do damage, but at least assault was viable.

JPong wrote:
I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

And they were no more correct now than then.

This is strictly another case of being loud on the internet being equated with being right.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

JPong wrote:
I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

And they were no more correct now than then.

This is strictly another case of being loud on the internet being equated with being right.

Yes, because you are somehow right...Because? You shout louder?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

JPong wrote:
I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

And they were no more correct now than then.

This is strictly another case of being loud on the internet being equated with being right.

So assault armies ruled 5th?
And 4th?
And are on even footing in 6th?

... Can I come play in your meta? It sounds much more fun that the rest of the world's.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

JPong wrote:
I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

And they were no more correct now than then.

This is strictly another case of being loud on the internet being equated with being right.

Yes, because you are somehow right...Because? You shout louder?

Nah man its because he isn't an "internet dumbass", he is here to enlighten us all, a voice of the voiceless if you will (and if you like wrestling references).

Assault is garbage in 6th, with the right planning, right rolls, and the right luck you might do some damage or if you happen to have some beatsticks, but generally assault is crap now.

On one hand it makes sense its the 41st Millennium we have guns that shoot nuclear waves and billions of tiny sharp discs, of course those are going be more of a deciding factor than a chainsaw sword.

On the other hand I got into 40k because of the giant chainsaw sword having super space knights, not to watch a bunch of blue fish men shoot me to death as a jaunt across the board to poke them.

But I'm just one guy I'm sure plenty of people love to have an army of static blue fish men shooting the hell out of everything, but Metas shift and 40k is no exception who knows in 7th we might see the return of assault or it might make vehicles viable again, or it might even turn into a herohammer game, its the price you pay for playing 40k.

One point that many people miss when complaining about random charge lengths is that in practice most charges in competitive 5th edition were already random anyway-- nearly any important charge occurred through Difficult Terrain.

In any case, I consider assault and shooting to be balanced. I'm currently painting up some SM Veteran Sergeants with lightning claws, in fact. A versatile army with the ability to move, shoot, and assault effectively is in my experience stronger than one that relies on one phase of the game to carry the day.

 Kingsley wrote:
One point that many people miss when complaining about random charge lengths is that in practice most charges in competitive 5th edition were already random anyway-- nearly any important charge occurred through Difficult Terrain.

In any case, I consider assault and shooting to be balanced. I'm currently painting up some SM Veteran Sergeants with lightning claws, in fact. A versatile army with the ability to move, shoot, and assault effectively is in my experience stronger than one that relies on one phase of the game to carry the day.

So you have an army that is better than Tyranids in both assault (which they are made for) and shooting (not a surprise considering the gun-beast of the army is BS3 bs indeed GW) this is why gameplay is usually a negative experience for me. When I pay money I don't expect to have my ass handed to me every time.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Quitter. Just kidding. But seriously.

Here you miss the point. It literaly doesnt matter what the odds of a 8 inch charge is, because no matter what theodds were, they were better than before. Second, youre response assumes i need to choose between shooting and assaulting. It was an 8 inch charge BECAUSE I shot them first.

You dont need FOC for the teeny spam to work.

You mention that i must "deal" with reserve rules and get shot to pieces to pull this off. Are you ignoring me when i said i was avoiding 1-2rounds of shootin??? A lot of units can definitely both come on, shoot the enemy up and survive reprisal to charge because doing it this way is less shooting to the face than otherwise they would face.

If you read your rulebook, youll find out I am correct about rhino corners.

Shooting isnt bad. Im just telling you that assault aint bad either because heres the ultimate truth: forces that attack morale are the scariest. And melee attacks morale. It will not be as overpowering as it was in 5e and it shouldnt be. But its no lost cause. The only time the random assaults hurt is when in open terrain, less than 6 inches. Every other charge is potentially better.

Can I ask a question. What happens the turn you disembark from said Rhino? Do they not blow the Rhino up and then shoot at the guys anyway?

Yes you can ask that question. Also the answer is, Yes, they will try. You disembark behind the rhino so if theykill it without exploding it...you're still behind it. And many times thats what happens. And if there are multiple rhinos, sadly, they must not just kill, but explode them, in order to stop me from trying this. And if you are outflanking, this really becomes a nightmare for the enemy.

The fraud on the internet is that the enemy has this "unlimited" hose of shooting it can aim at any tactic. In reality, wreckage, terrain, and other units all conspire to block off avenues of fire, or provide essential cover. So your job as General is to minimize fire on your own forces (which outflanking does for you) and have a plan for what you will do if they do or if they dont get to the correct side...and make sure you include measures in the army, like a Comms relay or Officer of the Fleet, or the Autarch or GrandMaster or WHATEVER to mitigate that risk in the first place.

Heres why it works: They cant kill you on the come like they wanted to...its later in the game when their firepower is lessened... and assaults are ALWAYS more deadly to the assaulted generally. Losing combat and being cut down stinks...and is far more efficient than shooting even though shooting BY VIRTUE OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT HAS TO TRY is stronger. By doing the things im talking about, you're eliminating a lot of that TIME advantage the shooting attacks have.

This is a philosophy that guides me all the time in list building and game planning. Mobility and TIMING are WEAPONS.

 darthnatus wrote:

So you have an army that is better than Tyranids in both assault (which they are made for) and shooting

No C:SM army is going to be both better at assault and shooting than Tyranids.

He said he was playing an army good at both. Being good at assault, as far as Space Marine are concerned, still doesn't mean they can charge into 5 Tervigons and 100 Termagants.

 Jancoran wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Quitter. Just kidding. But seriously.

Here you miss the point. It literaly doesnt matter what the odds of a 8 inch charge is, because no matter what theodds were, they were better than before. Second, youre response assumes i need to choose between shooting and assaulting. It was an 8 inch charge BECAUSE I shot them first.

You dont need FOC for the teeny spam to work.

You mention that i must "deal" with reserve rules and get shot to pieces to pull this off. Are you ignoring me when i said i was avoiding 1-2rounds of shootin??? A lot of units can definitely both come on, shoot the enemy up and survive reprisal to charge because doing it this way is less shooting to the face than otherwise they would face.

If you read your rulebook, youll find out I am correct about rhino corners.

Shooting isnt bad. Im just telling you that assault aint bad either because heres the ultimate truth: forces that attack morale are the scariest. And melee attacks morale. It will not be as overpowering as it was in 5e and it shouldnt be. But its no lost cause. The only time the random assaults hurt is when in open terrain, less than 6 inches. Every other charge is potentially better.

Can I ask a question. What happens the turn you disembark from said Rhino? Do they not blow the Rhino up and then shoot at the guys anyway?

Yes you can ask that question. Also the answer is, Yes, they will try. You disembark behind the rhino so if theykill it without exploding it...you're still behind it. And many times thats what happens. And if there are multiple rhinos, sadly, they must not just kill, but explode them, in order to stop me from trying this. And if you are outflanking, this really becomes a nightmare for the enemy.

The fraud on the internet is that the enemy has this "unlimited" hose of shooting it can aim at any tactic. In reality, wreckage, terrain, and other units all conspire to block off avenues of fire, or provide essential cover. So your job as General is to minimize fire on your own forces (which outflanking does for you) and have a plan for what you will do if they do or if they dont get to the correct side...and make sure you include measures in the army, like a Comms relay or Officer of the Fleet, or the Autarch or GrandMaster or WHATEVER to mitigate that risk in the first place.

Heres why it works: They cant kill you on the come like they wanted to...its later in the game when their firepower is lessened... and assaults are ALWAYS more deadly to the assaulted generally. Losing combat and being cut down stinks...and is far more efficient than shooting even though shooting BY VIRTUE OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT HAS TO TRY is stronger. By doing the things im talking about, you're eliminating a lot of that TIME advantage the shooting attacks have.

This is a philosophy that guides me all the time in list building and game planning. Mobility and TIMING are WEAPONS.

I am sure you are some tactical genius doing what no one else has mentioned in this thread right. Oh wait, no you aren't because all this stuff was already brought up. Because if you are parked there stuck behind a rhino for a turn, everyone in your threat range just backs up. The reason 8+ inch charge ranges don't really matter is because trying them and failing is bad, and guess what you have a good chance of doing? You have a 30% chance roughly of failing a 6 inch charge. That's pretty god damn high. Remember, they don't have to kill your unit. Only render it flaccid. And each casualty they cause with whatever chunk of their army that can see you puts you even further away from them.

Shooting armies can bring as much shooting as you can assault. There is *always* another unit that can shoot. And they can strip 4 rhinos down to nothing in one turn pretty reliably, before they are even in position.

And that even ignores that there are assault armies that don't actually have rhinos to hide behind.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

JPong wrote:
I am pretty sure both those points have been brought up and debunked on every page at least once.

And they were no more correct now than then.

This is strictly another case of being loud on the internet being equated with being right.

Sweeping generalized statements began with insults?
If hypocrisy was money you could pay off america's national debt

 Jancoran wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Quitter. Just kidding. But seriously.

Here you miss the point. It literaly doesnt matter what the odds of a 8 inch charge is, because no matter what theodds were, they were better than before. Second, youre response assumes i need to choose between shooting and assaulting. It was an 8 inch charge BECAUSE I shot them first.

You dont need FOC for the teeny spam to work.

You mention that i must "deal" with reserve rules and get shot to pieces to pull this off. Are you ignoring me when i said i was avoiding 1-2rounds of shootin??? A lot of units can definitely both come on, shoot the enemy up and survive reprisal to charge because doing it this way is less shooting to the face than otherwise they would face.

If you read your rulebook, youll find out I am correct about rhino corners.

Shooting isnt bad. Im just telling you that assault aint bad either because heres the ultimate truth: forces that attack morale are the scariest. And melee attacks morale. It will not be as overpowering as it was in 5e and it shouldnt be. But its no lost cause. The only time the random assaults hurt is when in open terrain, less than 6 inches. Every other charge is potentially better.

Can I ask a question. What happens the turn you disembark from said Rhino? Do they not blow the Rhino up and then shoot at the guys anyway?

Yes you can ask that question. Also the answer is, Yes, they will try. You disembark behind the rhino so if theykill it without exploding it...you're still behind it. And many times thats what happens. And if there are multiple rhinos, sadly, they must not just kill, but explode them, in order to stop me from trying this. And if you are outflanking, this really becomes a nightmare for the enemy.

The fraud on the internet is that the enemy has this "unlimited" hose of shooting it can aim at any tactic. In reality, wreckage, terrain, and other units all conspire to block off avenues of fire, or provide essential cover. So your job as General is to minimize fire on your own forces (which outflanking does for you) and have a plan for what you will do if they do or if they dont get to the correct side...and make sure you include measures in the army, like a Comms relay or Officer of the Fleet, or the Autarch or GrandMaster or WHATEVER to mitigate that risk in the first place.

Heres why it works: They cant kill you on the come like they wanted to...its later in the game when their firepower is lessened... and assaults are ALWAYS more deadly to the assaulted generally. Losing combat and being cut down stinks...and is far more efficient than shooting even though shooting BY VIRTUE OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT HAS TO TRY is stronger. By doing the things im talking about, you're eliminating a lot of that TIME advantage the shooting attacks have.

This is a philosophy that guides me all the time in list building and game planning. Mobility and TIMING are WEAPONS.

So what you're saying is that I should take lots of Rhinos with my Blood Angels and shove assault marines in them. Then when they get blown up I hide behind the rhino? I'm not sure how hiding behind the Rhino in my deployment zone is going to help me get into assault.

 Jancoran wrote:
Heres why it works: They cant kill you on the come like they wanted to...its later in the game when their firepower is lessened... and assaults are ALWAYS more deadly to the assaulted generally. .

60% of the time it works everytime!

First of all, paint on mac sucks and
YOU CANT TELL ME COMBAT ISNT DEAD DOG

Except maybe for the Daemon boys, and their 5 MC creature lists. I am currently 1-7 against those lists. I might just buy a DE mega force because of those lists. And those people who are sitting there like "Dude! I don't run that list with my Daemons! I run plaguebearers.... n stuff.." LOL

Daemons................Alive and well

Khorne....................KIA

Space Puppies......MIA (Thunderwolf)

Blood Angels..........KIA

Black Templars...... KIA

Orks..........................MIA (Green Tide)

Tyranids...................MIA (Flyrant, Nidzilla)

Necron wraith list? cmon people thats no problem just have to consider that the modifier only works on models who are base to base at their initiative step.

I must've skipped some other combat armies, but whatever. Now venting time.


"AHA I have you now Riptide/Wraithknight/Baby-carriage/Iron-Arm Swarmlord/Greater Daemon! You will never survive my onslaught of 60 attacks on the charge! Oh you challenge? I mean I have to decline or I will get insta-killed. Weapon skill what? Excuse me? ....Wait what? Toughness 8? Oh.....well no problem! HA! 5 Wounds! Suck it! He has a 2+ armor save? Wow.... thats really something....." and then proceeds to widdle down the squad, while I get less and less attacks.

No cheap way into assault unless you are orcs.
I mean, furious charge doesn't even give you +1 initiative anymore.
I don't get any bonuses from multi-charging.
Overwatch is a bitch.
Tau get to have hammerheads help them if theyre within 6 in. I MEAN WTF? IS IT NOT ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN OVERWATCH WITH MULTIPLE UNITS?
Eldar have quasi-rending.
Necron gauss my LR to death and dont run away. MIND FUCKIN SHACKLE
DE just rape me.
There are like 4 assault vehicles in the whole game. (exaggeration)
Dark Angel salvo bolters.
Sisters hand flamer squad.
Salamander flamer squad.
Shoota boyz getting a bunch of shots (granted they have horrible aim) then have more attacks than you.
Charging through difficult.
IG: yay I charged a squad and swept them! 30 more to go! (horrible exaggeration)
AP1, AP2, AP3, Ignores cover, GW is like Oprah with its ranged AP.
Lightning claws AP3!!!!
Specialist weapons! Unwieldy! Slow and Purposeful! (more of a 2 way street here but whatever)

"Oh yeah well I got counter charged by some Hammernators/Incubi/Striking Scorpions and they destroyed me!"
Hey buddy guess what that does not mean the army is assault orientated, they are just there to make it virtually impossible to charge anything.

My observation with most assault armies is that the only way to win is to make EVERY SINGLE charge and even with that you could get shot up before you even get there.

Excuse me guys, I have some grieving to do.

In my humble opinion if you do the below assault would make a come back:

1. Make it possible to assault from out of a dedicated transport even if that transport moves as far as possible.

Would fix so much...

bodazoka wrote:
In my humble opinion if you do the below assault would make a come back:

1. Make it possible to assault from out of a dedicated transport even if that transport moves as far as possible.

Would fix so much...

Even if it's counted as a dis-ordered charge if it's not from an assault vehicle, this would help Chaos Melee so VERY much.

bodazoka wrote:
In my humble opinion if you do the below assault would make a come back:

1. Make it possible to assault from out of a dedicated transport even if that transport moves as far as possible.

Would fix so much...

This change would be way more disruptive and game changing then you think, and more than one army would suffer for it. I.e.; Deamons and Tyranids who have no dedicated transport vehicles. These armies would quickly fall to the bottom of the list for playability. The Blood Angels would rise to the top of all armies- because they have fast dedicated transport vehicles. 12" in movement phase (Cruising), +12" in shooting phase (Flat Out), guys jump out within 2", then charge 2d6" for a potential... 28"-38" assault range... yeah, that would be insane. Eldar would become the most powerful army in the game, with the Dark Eldar very close behind them. I'm pretty sure the Dark Eldar would be the king of movement/assault- they just don't have a good unit to back it up (Wytches are good, but not THAT good compared to other assault units out there).

Basically, you would see these fast armies spam their fast dedicated troop transports and pull off first turn charges. If you ever played 3rd edition, you would know how much a first turn assault sucks when your opponent goes first, pulls off a first turn assault, and basically ends the game before you even get a turn. It wouldn't be fair in this edition at all. Your opponent would just have to tie up all your scoring units in your deployment zone, get First Blood, and maybe a couple kill points, keep one of his scoring choices back to grab an objective late game and Bob's your uncle. He wins the game on the first turn because he got to go first. Similarly, you could do the same by winning or seizing the initiative. Not much fun for either player.

No, there is no simple "fix" for this edition. We're just gonna have to play it out for a couple more years and hope 7th changes a lot of things, and given GW's track record, it'll either just tweak this rule set, or it will be a completely different rule set. I bet that they will simply tweak the rule set, as it's a complete overhaul over the previous editions. I don't see GW scrapping this rules set as sales are "booming" for this edition. As much as we all may complain about it, the sales figures tell a different story. This is the "best edition of 40K yet" according to those sales figures.

I actually do think its the best edition.

So do I.

 Tamwulf wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
In my humble opinion if you do the below assault would make a come back:

1. Make it possible to assault from out of a dedicated transport even if that transport moves as far as possible.

Would fix so much...

This change would be way more disruptive and game changing then you think, and more than one army would suffer for it. I.e.; Deamons and Tyranids who have no dedicated transport vehicles. These armies would quickly fall to the bottom of the list for playability. The Blood Angels would rise to the top of all armies- because they have fast dedicated transport vehicles. 12" in movement phase (Cruising), +12" in shooting phase (Flat Out), guys jump out within 2", then charge 2d6" for a potential... 28"-38" assault range... yeah, that would be insane. Eldar would become the most powerful army in the game, with the Dark Eldar very close behind them. I'm pretty sure the Dark Eldar would be the king of movement/assault- they just don't have a good unit to back it up (Wytches are good, but not THAT good compared to other assault units out there).

Basically, you would see these fast armies spam their fast dedicated troop transports and pull off first turn charges. If you ever played 3rd edition, you would know how much a first turn assault sucks when your opponent goes first, pulls off a first turn assault, and basically ends the game before you even get a turn. It wouldn't be fair in this edition at all. Your opponent would just have to tie up all your scoring units in your deployment zone, get First Blood, and maybe a couple kill points, keep one of his scoring choices back to grab an objective late game and Bob's your uncle. He wins the game on the first turn because he got to go first. Similarly, you could do the same by winning or seizing the initiative. Not much fun for either player.

No, there is no simple "fix" for this edition. We're just gonna have to play it out for a couple more years and hope 7th changes a lot of things, and given GW's track record, it'll either just tweak this rule set, or it will be a completely different rule set. I bet that they will simply tweak the rule set, as it's a complete overhaul over the previous editions. I don't see GW scrapping this rules set as sales are "booming" for this edition. As much as we all may complain about it, the sales figures tell a different story. This is the "best edition of 40K yet" according to those sales figures.

I agree with you when you say that having charges from vehicles that moved flat out is just plain wrong, but I'm not sure if that is what he meant. I think he just meant allowing assault from vehicles who move 6 inches. You could make assault ramps do something else, like getting to re-roll you charge distance or something. Perhaps you could just allow assault from vehicles that haven't moved. Still probably not going to help a lot though.

I think the simplest fix would be to remove three rules, and tweak one.

1) Let casualty removal happen from anywhere in a unit.

This would mitigate both the issue where assault units have further to travel, overall, to get into assault, and the issue of assaults failing simply because overwatch killed the one guy who would have made it.

2) Get rid of challenges. They're a ridiculous attempt to carry over fantasyisms into the far future. We live in 2013 and haven't seen wars where champions do hand-to-hand combat with each other in over 2000 years. Are the soliders 38,000 years in the future so stupid?

Yes, that means the return of 'hidden' powerfists, but that's a good thing. The hidden powerfist was a limiting factor on the power of the MC/herohammer. Sure, the MC might win the fight, but he'd take a few solid hits on the way out. With challenges, heros/monsters can challenge out the one weapon that really threatens them, and then set to work destroying a squad.

3) Reduce the randomess in random charges (or apply randomness to shooting ranges). It's ridiculous that a guy with a gun can know with absolute precision that he needs to take a step to the right to hit a target 48" on the other side of the table, but a guy 3" from a target doesn't know if he's close enough to charge it. Make it 4d3. That gives you a minimum of 4", as well as having more dice forcing the resulting probability curve closer to the average.

4) Allow pop-up assaults. Denying people assaults from infiltration/outflanking/arriving from reserve has no basis in anything over than some developer being pissy that he got assaulted after positioning his guys badly. Seriously, you know what your opponent has in reserve, and where it's likely to come from. There's no reason to make those guys wait.
Allowing these charges would add a threat to static gunlines that they don't have now.

On the original question...

Not Really.

The current addition has just made tactical troops more tactical. The real assault things, bikes, spawn, jump troops are just as assaulty. You need to weigh up the number of troop choices for capturing objectives vs how assaulty you want to be.

There as been mention of pop up assaults not being allowed, I tend to agree with the rule and think it makes you think more and makes some troops stand out which can do this (Can Vanguard Still do this?). I wouldn't want to see the return of pop up attacks, GWcould consider giving outflanking/ deep striking/teleporting troops stealth in the emenies shooting phase after they arrive, to signify a level of surprise or confusion as a way to lower the moans of no pop up attacks.

 Redbeard wrote:
Yes, that means the return of 'hidden' powerfists, but that's a good thing. The hidden powerfist was a limiting factor on the power of the MC/herohammer. Sure, the MC might win the fight, but he'd take a few solid hits on the way out. With challenges, heros/monsters can challenge out the one weapon that really threatens them, and then set to work destroying a squad.

Also get rid of grenades vs MCs. If you're allowing hidden powerfists, krark grenades vs MCs is adding insult to injury.

Are you actually seeing grenades having much of an impact on MCs? I'm not. In fact, in some cases, it's better not to have them. If a biomancied T8 dude attacks my marines, my krak grenades are wounding on 6s, and they're not ap3, so they're bouncing off most MCs. On the other hand, they're still S6, so they -could- hurt the MC, preventing me from using the 'i can chose to fail my morale and try to get away" rule.

Meltabombs, maybe - but there's only one unit in the game that I'm aware of that all have meltabombs (fire dragons) - the rest of them have the same problem as the powerfist - they're on upgrade characters only.

That assumes you get a T8 beasty very often. Many (many, many) times I have to push Tervigons and Tyrants into combat with units with grenades when they don't have IA. Against Marines I typically lose one MC a game to grenades - not that it makes me lose the game, but it's something to think about. I've lost count of the times that I've challenged (and squashed) a PF and then died to grenades the following rounds.

You're also ignoring that Trygon Primes (for example) can challenge-snipe the power fist right now and can never be T8.

But see this is where shooty units also get a buff. A close combat oriented squad with pistols and CCW would have a bunch of attacks, power weapons, etc. but when it comes down to throwing grenades they can each throw one. And if lets say a 10-man bolter squad gets charged by a MC, they would be getting the same number of grenades so really why even bother with assault squads.