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Lesser Order on the Eastern Fringe.

That's how I justify painting mine in green armor with blue hair, at least .

 Lynata wrote:
True. Plus they just got their own section on the website.

Define 'just'. They've had their own section for quite a while.

But where did FW make them "Marines-lite"?

The look of the vehicles. Too clean and not cool enough.

Cheers for that, I assumed they were like Marine chapters where "if you can imagine it, it exists"

 Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, SOB should be OTT and religious. Not marines-lite.

They should be a mixture of both, imo.

No they unequivocally should not be any amount of "marines-lite" nor "guard-plus" nor any other derivation. To the contrary, they must be entirely their own brand. Thanks to year after year of neglect, there is already enough confusion about who they are without further muddying the waters, no matter how good intentioned one might be. I'd rather have them all in power heels than an army that could be confused as either marines-lite or guard-plus.

pretre wrote:The look of the vehicles. Too clean and not cool enough.

Oh, that! Yeah, agreed 100%.

I admit, when I first looked at the SoB years ago, I found the FW Exorcist a bit better-looking as the studio version (though I always thought its launchers look boring, as if someone stuck a pair of empty toilet paper rolls on an APC), for the GW Exorcist seemed rather OTT ... but I have since come around and Embraced The Crazy that is the Adeptus Ministorum.

Vain wrote:Cheers for that, I assumed they were like Marine chapters where "if you can imagine it, it exists"

Nah, in GW's material they are way more uniform than the Guard or "even" the Marines, as they all trace back their origins to a single location (the San Leor temple), and are all united in two Primary Convent HQs (Prioris on Terra and Sanctorum on Ophelia VII), and even have a singular leader (the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas, also a potential High Lord of the Senatorum Imperialis).

Some might see this as a downside due to the limitations, but in a way it actually makes them special for being one of the very few organisations in the IoM that is actually rather uniform.

Anyways, you're welcome!

Manchu wrote:No they unequivocally should not be any amount of "marines-lite" nor "guard-plus" nor any other derivation. To the contrary, they must be entirely their own brand.

Ah, but Marine-style badassness is part of that, I think. GW has likened them to the female version of Astartes in the past (and I think it's obvious this was at least part of the inspiration that made them what they are today), and I wouldn't want to see them nerfed to "Guard-plus" because people are afraid the Marines would have to compete with them. That's where the other aspects of their design and their fluff come in handy.

Don't take it so literal. IG and Marines are two fixed constants in the fluff, and even if the Sisters would ever become more established in the community (which would take considerable effort from GW) that'd take many years to show. Let's just stick to established standards until this changes. Their fans know what separates them and makes them special. Actually, I'd hope that even most of the other gamers do. It shouldn't be hard to realise...

Manchu wrote:I'd rather have them all in power heels

You heretic. 20 lashes with the neurowhip.

Ah well. perhaps well see some FW sisters of silence soon enough since 30k is their main playground now anyway.

That sounds possible. Although, given FW's neglect of the Sisters of Battle, I'm not sure they'd be more interested in what is essentially a prequel knock-off ...

 Lynata wrote:
Some might see this as a downside due to the limitations, but in a way it actually makes them special for being one of the very few organisations in the IoM that is actually rather uniform.

That's a great point, actually. They are a point of order in the chaos. This goes back to their pivotal moment, executing Goge Vandire and ending the Age of Apostasy. Yet another important point about Sisters that is opposite to Marines (whose big moment is the Heresy).

 Lynata wrote:
Ah, but Marine-style badassness is part of that, I think.

I could not disagree more. In their most definitive point, SoB are the exact opposite of SM; they are just regular humans, biologically.

 Lynata wrote:
Let's just stick to established standards until this changes.

No, it's all already there. It just needs to be remembered -- and not diluted by well-intentioned folks who want them to be more "serious" or whatever.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:I'd rather have them all in power heels

You heretic. 20 lashes with the neurowhip.

Now you're on the right track.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fayric wrote:
Ah well. perhaps well see some FW sisters of silence soon enough since 30k is their main playground now anyway.

Even with FW prices, that would seriously tempt me.

Manchu wrote:That's a great point, actually. They are a point of order in the chaos. This goes back to their pivotal moment, executing Goge Vandire and ending the Age of Apostasy. Yet another important point about Sisters that is opposite to Marines (whose big moment is the Heresy).

Manchu wrote:I could not disagree more. In their most definitive point, SoB are the exact opposite of SM; they are just regular humans, biologically.

I don't disagree with this, quite the opposite - I'm just saying they are well in their rights to be "Marine-style" in their battle prowess. You said so yourself, in a statement which I wholeheartedly embrace, could not have said better, and have cited in other threads about SoB ->

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

This, to me, is one of the most important parts of the Essence of the Sororitas. Exactly this kind of mental image. Decades of training and indoctrination and a will of steel enclosed in Astartes-grade power armour, standing ready to repel the enemies of her faith with fire and sword. Take it away (like FFG and some novel authors did) and it just isn't as cool anymore.

I'm always sceptical when people dispute a certain "Marininess" of the Sisters because it always lets me fear they might see them as less capable. Call it a ... suspicious mind.

 Lynata wrote:
You said so yourself, in a statement which I wholeheartedly oppose, could not have said better, and have cited in other threads about SoB

Freudian slip.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm always sceptical when people dispute a certain "Marininess" of the Sisters because it always lets me fear they might see them as less capable

I understand your concern ... but defending them as capable by arguing that they are like SM, that approach actually bears out rather than allays the problem. Marines must not be the bar by which Sisters are judged as a matter of (re)designing them, except for remembering what is already there: they are Marine-killers, for example. So, I'm not saying we can ignore SM when we talk about SoB; just that the idea that SoB are only capable to the extent that they are Marine-like does more for the reputation of SM than that of SoB.

Manchu wrote:Freudian slip.

Wow. I have no idea how or why ...

Guess this is what I get for working on two texts simultaneously. I should stop posting from the office.

Manchu wrote:So, I'm not saying we can ignore SM when we talk about SoB; just that the idea that SoB are only capable to the extent that they are Marine-like does more for the reputation of SM than that of SoB.

As long as SM are considered the "standard", I don't think there's any risk there. Let's face it, SM are the posterboys of the franchise, and even in the fluff they seem to be held in higher regard than the Sisters by the rest of humanity, so to compare them to Astartes is kind of a honour (as wrong as it may seem on first glance).

We may not like how almost everything in 40k seems to revolve around the Astartes, but do you think it is reasonable or productive to oppose this condition? We may only end up driving a wedge between ourselves and the rest of the community. I'm just trying to work with the system in hopes of better conveying what the Sisters are about, and when people are much more familiar with the Space Marines than with the Sororitas, it helps to let them appear somewhat equal in battle prowess, rather than independently listing all the same enemies that both factions fight, and feats of strength that both Sisters and Marines are capable of. Or rather, it's certainly a shorter method of getting the point across.

I believe we actually think alike on this topic, we just seem to prefer different approaches when it comes to conveying our feelings on the Sisterhood.

That's pretty plausible.

Here's how I would put it: Forget about one SM fighting one SoB, that's immaterial. How does a SoB formation compare against a reasonably similar SM one? It's actually an easy question -- SoB can be deployed to effectively deal with SM of questionable orthodoxy.

... and it's not because they are somewhat like Marines ...

So there you go, for anyone who's wondered how SoB stack up vis-a-vis SM. That's a comparison I like.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm always sceptical when people dispute a certain "Marininess" of the Sisters because it always lets me fear they might see them as less capable. Call it a ... suspicious mind.

I'd put it like this:
Sisters of Battle should be "peak human": the best of humanity. Space Marines are not the best of humanity, they are the best abhumans humanity can create. On the other hand, Sisters of Battle should be immune to chaos influence, because psycho-surgery and brainwashing are no substitute for True Faith. Grey Knights should be immune to chaos influence too, because they have sacrificed even more of their humanity than regular marines, with anything that chaos could latch onto excised to the point where they're not really people any more.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I'm always sceptical when people dispute a certain "Marininess" of the Sisters because it always lets me fear they might see them as less capable. Call it a ... suspicious mind.

I'd put it like this:
Sisters of Battle should be "peak human": the best of humanity. Space Marines are not the best of humanity, they are the best abhumans humanity can create. On the other hand, Sisters of Battle should be immune to chaos influence, because psycho-surgery and brainwashing are no substitute for True Faith. Grey Knights should be immune to chaos influence too, because they have sacrificed even more of their humanity than regular marines, with anything that chaos could latch onto excised to the point where they're not really people any more.

So...Grey Knights are basically Flesh Golems?

ClockworkZion wrote:
So...Grey Knights are basically Flesh Golems?

Not completely. They aren't healed by lightning, for example.

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
So...Grey Knights are basically Flesh Golems?

Not completely. They aren't healed by lightning, for example.

True, true. If they were it'd be easier to keep them alive.

So I'm waiting for the Digital WD to drop so I can screen cap that page so we can have actual proof online.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I'm waiting for the Digital WD to drop so I can screen cap that page so we can have actual proof online.

I'm amazed someone hasn't yet.

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I'm waiting for the Digital WD to drop so I can screen cap that page so we can have actual proof online.

I'm amazed someone hasn't yet.

The lack of pictures to back up the claims has been bugging me a bit.

Our WDs only get here on Saturday (via Fedex) so I can't even pop over to the FLGS to snap a picture.

Sisters of Battle should be the best of pure human soldiers. The difficulty is that GW is walking the line between what the IG are and what SM are, but in some ways GW needs SoB to be a third way even if it's still anchored with consideration to the other two.

When I read FW's Horus Heresy book you see a lot of variations on space marines units and composition... Yet GWs representation of SoB is very much grounded in a representation that only mirrors those most basic Marine units . Instead they should be trying to make the SoB units a more unique interpretation. GW needs to embrace the fact SoB aren't bound by the Index Astartes... That nothing would keep them from doing something like giving a unit sniper rifles and jump packs... I don't mean to say that specifically should happen just that SoB deserve an expanded vision of what they could be. It's the lack of units of that sort that make them come off as Marines-lite.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Sisters of Battle should be the best of pure human soldiers. The difficulty is that GW is walking the line between what the IG are and what SM are, but in some ways GW needs SoB to be a third way even if it's still anchored with consideration to the other two.

Agreed. Sisters aren't just defined by what they are, but what they are not.

 aka_mythos wrote:
When I read FW's Horus Heresy book you see a lot of variations on space marines units and composition... Yet GWs representation of SoB is very much grounded in a representation that only mirrors those most basic Marine units . Instead they should be trying to make the SoB units a more unique interpretation. GW needs to embrace the fact SoB aren't bound by the Index Astartes... That nothing would keep them from doing something like giving a unit sniper rifles and jump packs... I don't mean to say that specifically should happen just that SoB deserve an expanded vision of what they could be. It's the lack of units of that sort that make them come off as Marines-lite.

GW limits Sisters not by the Codex Astartes but by the Holy Trinity. Of course it's not like their aren't bolter based sniper weapons, or flamers with more range (torrent) or other really fun/nasty toys for them to take.

More things like the Exorcists would be nice. Things that diverge from that trinity but fit the army's theme so tightly that there is no question that it belongs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of the Exorcist, I've always felt that it and the Penitent Engine would be the easiest kits the Sisters have to convert to plastic.

Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

 pretre wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

Exactly!

Wow...we sound like 4chan on that one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

Exactly!

Wow...we sound like 4chan on that one.

You take that back!

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

Exactly!

Wow...we sound like 4chan on that one.

You take that back!

To be fair we also sound like Lovecraft who basically invented the idea of "pics or it didn't happen".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

Exactly!

Wow...we sound like 4chan on that one.

You take that back!

To be fair we also sound like Lovecraft who basically invented the idea of "pics or it didn't happen".

But still... Pics or it didn't happen.

 pretre wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Spotted them in the WD today, snapped a picture of the page

Pic or it didn't happen.

That'll do. I take back most of the bad things I ever said about you, BrookM.

Why thank you.

Thanks!