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 Therion wrote:
the breasts are a non-concern

No, they are a concern. It's just not one that necessitates boob-cups. If armor is designed ignoring the existence of breasts (armor is intended to be used during strenuous activity such as combat, after all), it will result in discomfort in the best case scenario, and injury in the worst case scenario.

 Therion wrote:
Men in the same weight class as women generally don't have much of a difference between the size of the shoulders

False.

This has gone off topic to far-away places...

Any news on the models? Will the Adepta get a new MC (as per the norm), or is the engine just going to be changed to one (it's a walker, iirc)?

Just saw on the Digital editions page that we'll be able to preorder it on the 12th, as well as download a preview on the same day.

In related news, the Digital Editions Facebook page is now at 2000 likes. People have been eager to point out why, naturally.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm cool with 10 point Heavy Bolters if it means the rest of the codex is shifting to match the rest of the game in points costing.

Also Rending Heavy Flamers would make Retributors the scariest thing on the board!

Indeed. I would just love to field me some of those.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
This has gone off topic to far-away places...

Any news on the models? Will the Adepta get a new MC (as per the norm), or is the engine just going to be changed to one (it's a walker, iirc)?

I think the Penitent Engine would work just fine as an MC.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Therion wrote:
You're seriously saying armour needs special models for women, or think that anyone would actually do it?

Yes.

If you admit you were talking about men being bigger, stronger and bulkier in general than women when you said women need armour designed specifically for them, I'm not sure why we had this discussion. I was talking about there not existing real and necessitating differences between male and female fighter body types (the supertrained ones, not the "I'm a mum and I'm fighting for my country" ones) that require gender specific armour when the weight and height are the same. An armour fit for Brock Lesnar wouldnt fit Dominick Cruz very well either.

If armor is designed ignoring the existence of breasts

Oh, it doesn't ignore the existence of breasts. This is what they look like. The fact that the other gender instead has sacs that consist of fat and tissue isn't a concern that sizing couldn't address.
http://howtogetrippedpecs.webs.com/4.jpg

Therion wrote:So what are the characteristics and qualities that a vest or a breastplate needs to have to be designed for women? You're seriously saying armour needs special models for women, or think that anyone would actually do it? What's the difference between a vest intended for a 135lbs 168cm man and one intended for a 135lbs 168cm woman? Please explain why we need armour designed specifically for women based on the fitting concern that you raised?

Perhaps this helps:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-47270/New-body-armour-built-women.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/body-armor-for-female-soldiers-set-for-wide-distribution-next-summer-1.184102
http://techland.time.com/2012/11/01/best-inventions-of-the-year-2012/slide/body-armor-for-women/

This has been an issue for several decades now, depending on the country - apparently, militaries and police forces have finally noticed this should be fixed.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Breotan wrote:Wait till she sees how much an Sisters army is going to cost.

I know Fingers crossed for a possible price-cut and/or switch to plastic.

Look at GW's current prices. Plastics will very likely not be cheaper than metals.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just noticed something...is that sister wearing lipstick? Is that a thing?

Yup, since always, I think.


Probably a leftover from their days as Vandire's bodyguard, or flaunting their femininity to make a point about the Decree Passive and their own self-esteem, or because of that "angelic image" they aim to portray.
At least in-universe. The actual reason was very probably to make them appear more feminine and gloss over the fact that GW has a bit of trouble sculpting female heads.

Sometimes it's red, sometimes black or blue, either depending on the Order or the painter/artist. It's not something followed through by all freelance artists or fans, of course.

PS: I just now noticed that the Superior in GW's photos has white stripes on her robes and gold on her armour. Interesting detail.

More likely, ti's because the painters probably don't know how to paint women who DON'T wear lipstick.

 Therion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Therion wrote:
What's the difference between a vest intended for a 135lbs 168cm man and one intended for a 135lbs 168cm woman?

I'm going to assume that this is a serious question, and not a rhetorical one.

A man has wider shoulders which allows him to support more of the vest on the shoulders alone. Woman has wider hips and slimmer shoulders, necessitating a vest that does not rely entirely upon resting on the shoulders, and womens' breasts need support (this necessity however is served equally well by a sports bra, so it's not really a concern, and does not necessitate boob-cups in armor) in most cases.

Similarly, for something like a jumpsuit, the zipper needs to go further down to facilitate urination. In the case of expensive items like power armor, the armor is likely going to be custom-fit and adjusted to each user's body specifications, but will not necessarily show any outside difference in shape.

Like you admitted, the breasts are a non-concern. Not only because they can be supported, but because fighters generally don't have them, and in the future I'm sure they can be removed or made smaller when genetic mutation so suggests. Men in the same weight class as women generally don't have much of a difference between the size of the shoulders, and in addition to that the armours we see in this game have separate shoulder pieces that are installed separately and can come in any size. No breast cups are needed, likewise no outwards bulging cups for the male genital parts are required, an identical leg piece will work.

Here's some pictures for comparison. I'm sure you're all thinking about the fantasy anime girls shapes, but here's women that train and fight as a living, and two men from the same class for comparison. Usually I'd say the male fighters have larger breasts than female ones, because male pectorals grow a lot and get really well defined. I'm not going to link a thousand pics here as I'm sure you can find them on your own.
http://i0.wp.com/sweatforit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ronda-rousey-mma-ufc-female-fighter-champion-sweatforit6.jpg?w=900
http://a4d69b0be31a71a4ce13-693158ff2c1c99d0e4a41d57d491843d.r93.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/33-Dominick-Cruz-Urijah-Faber-UFC-132-weigh.jpg

Just an FYI, soft body armor for women is different than soft body armor for men. I'm a man, I wear body armor at work and was just fitted for a vest in the past few months. I have female coworkers who were also fitted for vests in the past few months. And they are different. This is personal experience. Male and female body armor is different because it has to sit differently on men and women. From the outside in full gear it does look the same. It is not though.

Now how this would be different for hard armor I don't know. I'd imagine male and female armor would be no different. But modern day soft body armor is different for men and women.

In theory Adepta Sororitas armor should look like Marine armor is its hard power armor. But SoB armor has always looked like a combination of soft armor and power armor to me and not straight hard armor.

All power armor is both soft and hard armor to an extent, even Astartes armor.

For some reason GW's design has them wera a corset over their power armor, which is silly, but it doesn't mean that they don't have aticulate hard plates protecting their torso underneath that corset like Marines do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:
Oh, it doesn't ignore the existence of breasts.

This may soundstrange to you, but womens' breasts are different than mens' breasts in shape, size, purpose, attachment to the rest of the body, and the needs they have from clothing.

 Melissia wrote:
All power armor is both soft and hard armor to an extent, even Astartes armor.

For some reason GW's design has them wera a corset over their power armor, which is silly, but it doesn't mean that they don't have aticulate hard plates protecting their torso underneath that corset like Marines do.

I'm assuming its a hard plate underneath, but the corset on the outside has always been weird to me. I have always liked the models, just a weird design thought to have a corset outside!

 Melissia wrote:
This may soundstrange to you, but womens' breasts are different than mens' breasts in shape, size, purpose, attachment to the rest of the body, and the needs they have from clothing.

Thanks for keeping the topic up to date with that information. I however was already privy to the shards of knowledge you just shared. I assume future super soldiers who live for war train every day and use all the supplements, chemicals and and more than what we have today. I suggest you stop looking at yourself and your hubby for differences and pay some attention to those women who actually train.

 Thanatos73 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
All power armor is both soft and hard armor to an extent, even Astartes armor.

For some reason GW's design has them wera a corset over their power armor, which is silly, but it doesn't mean that they don't have aticulate hard plates protecting their torso underneath that corset like Marines do.

I'm assuming its a hard plate underneath, but the corset on the outside has always been weird to me. I have always liked the models, just a weird design thought to have a corset outside!

It could be to keep dust dirt, and small shrapnel from getting into any gaps in there.

 Thanatos73 wrote:
just a weird design thought to have a corset outside!

It goes with the SoB aesthetic. Remember, these are the people with the pipe organ tank and flaming power packs.

It's an explantion that works both in-universe and out.

Correct. It's silly, but it suits the aesthetic that GW wanted.

Melissia wrote:For some reason GW's design has them wera a corset over their power armor, which is silly, but it doesn't mean that they don't have aticulate hard plates protecting their torso underneath that corset like Marines do.

In fact, there are both miniatures as well as artworks that show exactly this.


As for the silliness ... this is 40k, and dust covers in the form of leather corsets are no less silly than oversized shoulder pauldrons, gigantic hats, or back-banners.

 Therion wrote:
Thanks for keeping the topic up to date with that information. I however was already privy to the shards of knowledge you just shared

Apparently, you were not.

 Lynata wrote:
silly [...] gigantic hats

Do not mock The Hat.

It is a thing of great power and must be taken completely seriously as all great hats are!

 Melissia wrote:
Correct. It's silly, but it suits the aesthetic that GW wanted.

Eh, no more silly than ginormous pauldrons.

Which isn't saying that much.

Do we have a release date yet? Or did I miss something?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Do we have a release date yet? Or did I miss something?

See the thread title.

That is the release date we know of at the moment. May be subject to change etc.

 Melissia wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Correct. It's silly, but it suits the aesthetic that GW wanted.

Eh, no more silly than ginormous pauldrons.

Which isn't saying that much.

Do we have a release date yet? Or did I miss something?

See the thread title.

surry, kant reed.

 Melissia wrote:
Apparently, you were not.

What a wonderful response. Is this the quality of debate that you endeavour to keep? I salute you. You made the statement saying armour shouldn't ignore the existence of breasts. I replied with evidence that it doesn't. You change the subject, and now apparently try to end it with a last word competition. How long shall it go though, I wonder? I guess pretty long judging from your post count.

 Melissia wrote:
It is a thing of great power and must be taken completely seriously as all great hats are!

I would also like to point out that it can set people on fire with a headbutt. If that's not a great hat, then I don't know what is.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Do we have a release date yet? Or did I miss something?

October 19th for the actual release, October 12th for preorders and a preview.

 Therion wrote:
I replied with evidence that it doesn't.

Your opinion isn't evidence.

 Melissia wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Do we have a release date yet? Or did I miss something?

See the thread title.

That is the release date we know of at the moment. May be subject to change etc.

No changes coming based on Games Workshop: Digital Edition's Facebook. 12th is the pre-order, 19th is the release date.

 Therion wrote:
If you admit you were talking about men being bigger, stronger and bulkier in general than women when you said women need armour designed specifically for them, I'm not sure why we had this discussion.

Are you illiterate, or just a troll?

"Females are not small males," said Beverly Kimball, project engineer for female Army aviation combat uniforms also being developed at Natick. "We have specific proportions that require designs for fit and function for uniforms as well as equipment."

 Melissia wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I replied with evidence that it doesn't.

Your opinion isn't evidence.

A picture of a man with trimmed pecs and four pictures of UFC fighters is my opinion? I think you're the one who was unaware of what non-flabby, trained bodies look like.

 AlexHolker wrote:

Are you illiterate, or just a troll?

Starting to get a bit hostile here, aren't we? Heating up? Your article said the size scale didn't go low enough because the women in service were miniscule compared to the men. It also tried to argue women are not only smaller males, but I found that irrelevant since the differences change depending on how much training you do. I assume the Sisters of Battle are more like the UFC woman fighters than the UFC ring girls.

Showing a man's pectoral muscles by itself does not indicate that men and women have identical needs for breast support.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No changes coming based on Games Workshop: Digital Edition's Facebook. 12th is the pre-order, 19th is the release date.

Eh, I always assume there's a chance for a delay. Especially regarding anything Sisters-related. I'm a bit jaded about Sisters stuff after all

 Lynata wrote:

Therion wrote:So what are the characteristics and qualities that a vest or a breastplate needs to have to be designed for women? You're seriously saying armour needs special models for women, or think that anyone would actually do it? What's the difference between a vest intended for a 135lbs 168cm man and one intended for a 135lbs 168cm woman? Please explain why we need armour designed specifically for women based on the fitting concern that you raised?

Perhaps this helps:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-47270/New-body-armour-built-women.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/body-armor-for-female-soldiers-set-for-wide-distribution-next-summer-1.184102
http://techland.time.com/2012/11/01/best-inventions-of-the-year-2012/slide/body-armor-for-women/

This has been an issue for several decades now, depending on the country - apparently, militaries and police forces have finally noticed this should be fixed.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Breotan wrote:Wait till she sees how much an Sisters army is going to cost.

I know Fingers crossed for a possible price-cut and/or switch to plastic.

Look at GW's current prices. Plastics will very likely not be cheaper than metals.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just noticed something...is that sister wearing lipstick? Is that a thing?

Yup, since always, I think.

Spoiler:

Probably a leftover from their days as Vandire's bodyguard, or flaunting their femininity to make a point about the Decree Passive and their own self-esteem, or because of that "angelic image" they aim to portray.
At least in-universe. The actual reason was very probably to make them appear more feminine and gloss over the fact that GW has a bit of trouble sculpting female heads.

Sometimes it's red, sometimes black or blue, either depending on the Order or the painter/artist. It's not something followed through by all freelance artists or fans, of course.

PS: I just now noticed that the Superior in GW's photos has white stripes on her robes and gold on her armour. Interesting detail.

On the price issue, I keep seeing people say this, and I just don't understand it. Right now, Metal sisters are extremely expensive, much more than the ordinary GW line. I would be HIGHLY surprised if plastic sisters weren't cheaper.

Right now, a 10 person squad of SOB from GW costs $64. That's with no upgrades, no features, no special or heavy weapons, not extra bits. 64 dollars for 9 girls with bolters and 1 sister superior.

On top of that, NO discount is available, since they are direct only.

While a 10 Man tactical squad of marines is $35 dollars after discount from your typical store or Ebay, and has LOADS of extra bits and weapon options.

If you want a 10 girl sisters squad with a Heavy Weapon, Special Weapon, Sergeant, and 7 Girls with bolters, it's $76.40 from GW with NO discount available and no option to buy from independent shops.

I sincerely doubt 10 girl sister squads in plastic will run $76.40 and still be direct only. Even if they were still 76 bucks, you'd at least be able to get a 30% discount on them from a store.

Wouldn't that make Sisters the first time that an army got CHEAPER with a new edition?

And never mind the firsthand real world example I provided. But pictures of UFC fighters is better than real examples I guess.

 Melissia wrote:
Wouldn't that make Sisters the first time that an army got CHEAPER with a new edition?

They would have to make 5 girl SOB squads $50 each, for a basic troop type, to be the same price as existing sisters.