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 Troike wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

What'd it say, just out of interest?

Here is the full letter for those interested.

"Dear Daniel,
I just wanted to drop you a quick line to thank you for your recent letter. Unfortunately
the number of letters I receive means that I can't reply personally to all of them, but I
did want to let you know that I had received and read yours, and really appreciated
the fact that you took the time to write. Please don't hesitate to get in touch again; I read
all of the mail I receive and find it really helps to keep me in touch with the grass
roots of the hobby. Rest assured, your ideas and suggestions have been 'added to
the melting pot'.

Sincerely
Robbin Cruddace (<-His signature)

PS. The Sisters of Battle are indeed one of my favourite armies and I completely
agree with you on your comments about them excelling in the 12-18" range. In my
mind they are typified as a close-ranged shooting army, and the Acts of Faith are
what helps to give an edge in a fight (and hence make them feel unique). I also think
you're 'on the money' in regards to not giving plasma, lascannons or rocket
launchers - in my opinion an army is as much defined by those weapons they do not
have as well as those they do.

PPS. I'd also like to think you for your kind gift of chocolate, something all Games
Developers appreciate whilst writing a codex."

I put a large brick of chocolate in the envelope I sent him, more as a bribe than anything else as I figure if he eats the chocolate the least he can do is read my codex breakdown and suggestions thing.

I can't post what I sent to him though as that is Games Workshop property now, everything you send them becomes their property as if it did not then they wouldn't be able to use any suggestions sent to them without fear of copyright claims and all that... and we all know how GW feels about copyright

I'll give a small synopsis though. Basically I see SoB as an army that should excel in the 12-18" range, this is their sweet spot so they should be damned good at that range since they aren't that good in assault.
I suggested they be able to use more special and heavy weapons than any other army as they only have the holy trinity and those weapons are pretty specialised. This was written before 6E even came out some 3 years ago if I'm not mistaken. I wanted to hand the thing over to Cruddace at Games Day UK the same year the WD came out but he wasn't there.
Like I said though, there is no way of knowing if he thought any of my ideas were any good. I'd like to think so but that's more of a vanity reason than anything else. It's probably just random chance that some of the things I figured would work better than the WD made it into this codex.


All in all I think this codex is allot better than the WD but there are still some really critical problems with it, like a Canoness being a rather disappointing option compared to what a Priest brings. I actually see no point in bringing a Canoness, I'd rather take Celestine or Uriah and 5 priests. Eviscerators is another thing that really bugs me, it's basically the only option if you want to go into CC but it costs too much and only the Canoness and Priests can take it. You'll never take a Canoness as you can get 1 priest with an Eviscerator for cheaper and he can become S10 Ap2 Armourbane with it. So Celestine or Uriah are the only warlord options.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

Your "point" has been "I don't think we feel elite enough and I'm going to disregard what everyone else says to the contrary because how I feel about the models on the table overrules all fluff".

If you pretend to know what I think better than I do, I don't think it's worth going on with this discussion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even Salamanders, an army of Artificers, can put all their elites in Artificer Armor and they have more of it than any chapter.

And yet Blood Angels get Artificer Armor AND jump pack AND super-powerful weapon.
But hey, Blood Angel certainly are more wealthy and more influent than the Ecclesiarchy, right ? To the point Sisters can't even get artificer armor for their most important leaders !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While I want Celestians to be good, I feel there are other ways to do it.

There are. There are many. I never pretended it was the only solution. I still think it was a possible solution, that involved no new model, and that give the right “richer than you” vibe to the army. You are welcome to give other solutions.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It was more to do with the weapon options and you know it.

Do you mean you talked about something that had nothing to do with what I thought was my point, and I answered about what I thought was my point, but still my point was something else completely unrelated ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Farseer on a Jetbike predates CHS, so no it wasn't "added".

Ok. Retained. Please stay again your explanation about why Kyrinov was not retained ?
You are trying to make excuses for the fact your theory don't hold in front of the facts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm not the one who is being completely unreasonable here and trying to claim that Sisters don't feel elite enough just because lots of people play Marines and those too have bolters and power armor.

I'm too lazy to check out who started using that word elite, but actually what I meant is all in my stated point above : having bolters and power armor is not enough to make it looks like they have access to very rare and powerful wargear. And that's because 11 out of 14 other armies can bring units with better, more powerful wargear, and the other ones are Imperial Guard (which has a horde and/or tanks theme, certainly not an elite infantry theme), and Tyranids and Deamons because neither has wargear in the strict sense of the term.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Learn to play this book and stay hopeful that the eventual proper update with sort things out better instead of being so fixated on problems that aren't nearly as severe as you're making them.

If you said it wasn't a big problem, it would be completely different. But from the start, rather than saying it the problem wasn't big, you pretended there was no problem, and I was an idiot (sorry, just “very thick”) for thinking there was one.
I still think there is one, I still hope it's going to be fixed in next upgrade, and I still know I can't do anything about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Stop moving the goal posts just so you can say "I'm right".

Okay. Goal : find any codex other than IG (because those are only support, they can't work on heir own) which can't field an HQ orders of magnitude stronger than a Canoness. Why this goal ? Almost every time, it's mostly the wargear as it is the profile that makes the HQ orders of magnitude more powerful than a Canoness, and that does support my point that we don't feel as an army with very very good access to powerful and rare wargear because of lots of riches and influence.

@HSoO: I'm just going to start ignoring your complaints now. I don't feel like going back and forth with you over and over again because you want to mope about what we all know was only going to be a partial update. As far as these things go, it's not bad. It's no game changer, but it's not bad. And that's all I'm going to say to you on it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you said it wasn't a big problem, it would be completely different. But from the start, rather than saying it the problem wasn't big, you pretended there was no problem, and I was an idiot (sorry, just “very thick”) for thinking there was one.
I still think there is one, I still hope it's going to be fixed in next upgrade, and I still know I can't do anything about it.

See that ? Never said the problem was new (it's been there since I started, at the release of C:WH, though maybe to a lesser degree), never said I ever expected it to be fixed with this upgrade, I just said it's still a problem, and provide some idea on how to fix it. You just went “Salamander can't have artificer armor units so we shouldn't have access to them either”, which seems very masochist to me.

if the army's captain can be better geared up then the army's named hero, then there is something wrong

What are you talking about, Shadowsfm ?

i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I don't think anyone wants that - but some other upgrades / options would have made it a choice between the two - like how you consider the many HQ options for a Space Marine army each on their own merrits

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I wouldn't mind if it was the case, as it's already been the case in C:WH if I remember. Special character are not supposed to be necessarily more powerful than generic ones, they are supposed to bring flavor and personality. I'm pretty sure there are several codex right now where it's possible to create a generic character stronger than many special character, and I have no problem with that. I don't especially want the Canoness to be better than Celestine though. I just would like the Canoness to have access to a lot of powerful, exotic, expensive wargear that makes her powerful, and I would like for Celestine to keep what gives her flavour : her capacity to come back from the dead, and to some lesser extent to shoot flames out of her sword. Apart from that, I don't really care which one is more powerful.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I wouldn't mind if it was the case, as it's already been the case in C:WH if I remember. Special character are not supposed to be necessarily more powerful than generic ones, they are supposed to bring flavor and personality. I'm pretty sure there are several codex right now where it's possible to create a generic character stronger than many special character, and I have no problem with that. I don't especially want the Canoness to be better than Celestine though. I just would like the Canoness to have access to a lot of powerful, exotic, expensive wargear that makes her powerful, and I would like for Celestine to keep what gives her flavour : her capacity to come back from the dead, and to some lesser extent to shoot flames out of her sword. Apart from that, I don't really care which one is more powerful.

Special Characters should be about bringing "Unique" things to the army, rather then better, beatstick Special Characters are boring unless they are explicitly DESIGNED to be in that sort of manner, Abbadon for example.

Sure Typhus is probably one of the most recognizable Nurgle Heralds, but out there there is still plenty of other Nurgle Blessed Champions who have done great things and can kick as much as he could, but Typhus is special because he's a Chaos Lord Sorcerer (When they removed them for some arbitrary reason, They are not space marine captains! *grumble grumble*) with the Destroyer hive inside of him, along with zombies. Which makes him more unique.

So, basically we totally agree on what special character should be .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, basically we totally agree on what special character should be .

Yeah was expanding that point out a bit.

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I dont think there is much worry on the canoness being better than.. well anything :p

The canoness is arguably better in a mech list, once you include the command squad.

So WTF of the day goes to Combi-Plasma being on the Ranged Weapons list but not being restricted to only Priests. So who wants a command Squad of Combi-Plasmas?

We could always take Combi-plasma...

 Still Standing wrote:
We could always take Combi-plasma...

Sorry, I never noticed because I was running Combi-Melta or Combi-Flamers.

Well that just seems weird either way.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So who wants a command Squad of Combi-Plasmas?

Ohohoho, yes.

Six combi-plasmas, inside of a melta Immolator. What fun.

Do BSS or dominions have access to combi plas or plas?

Only their Superiors, and they can only take combi plasmas or plasma pistols.

Warmahordes has a term called Skornergy meaning anti synergy because one of their factions Skorne has a ton of anti synergy. The anti synergy is so bad every other faction calls anti synergy skornergy.

AS isn't that bad, but it does have a bit going. Anything with a 2+ would unstopable with a priest In cc.. PE BSS would be a nightmare with 2plas and combi plas. Dominion alpha strike with 10 ignore cover plasma shots would also be ugly

Arco flags and repentia with a priest can turn cc into a slaughterhouse, but are very fragile and have no access to an assault vehicle.

Over all I think AS is a well written book rules wise. There is a lot of good stuff that just needs to be used right And overcome anti synergy..

Ok, I don't particularly want to get involved in this argument, but a couple of things are really bugging the fluff bunny inside of me.

1. Blood Angels do not have access to artificer armour for anything more than their Sanguinary Guard. Which are the bodyguards of their Chapter Master and originally the personal bodyguard of their Primarch. So they can't equip loads of troops with it- they have 30. It's identical to normal SM, who can only equip the chapter master bodyguard with artificer armour.

2. Yes, the ecclesiarchy is powerful, but it still has nothing on the Inquisition, who basically has the power to do pretty much want they want in a military sense, so can request what they like equipment wise (and artificer armour is STILL super rare for them- only 2 special characters have it and normal inquisitors can't purchase it). The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be. and STILL they are lucky to have 30 suits of working artificer armour in a first founding chapter who probably still have suits from the time artificer armour was given out to squad sergeants!

The ecclesiarchy is rich, but there is only so much money can buy, and sisters still get far more than IG, even elite IG units like storm troopers. I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour! Canonesses should maybe, but certainly not Celestians. As for more ranged punch- storm bolters is fairly appropiate, but starting to hand out stuff which is super rare just seems off fluffwise.

Haighus wrote:
The ecclesiarchy is rich, but there is only so much money can buy, and sisters still get far more than IG, even elite IG units like storm troopers. I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour! Canonesses should maybe, but certainly not Celestians. As for more ranged punch- storm bolters is fairly appropiate, but starting to hand out stuff which is super rare just seems off fluffwise.

This. The Marine Chapters have suits of Terminator Armour and Artificier Armour because they have their own Techmarines making and maintaining them. It doesn't matter how much money the Ecclesiarchy can put up, they're not getting any armour from the Astartes, and while there certainly is some armour coming in from the AdMech it's not enough to equip entire units of Sisters with it, especially not when Inquisitors compete for the same source of Artificier Armour. Considering Artificier Armour is hand-made and every suit unique it's not that strange that the Sisters don't have that many suits. They take ages to make, after all.

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be

Actually, codex fluff has the SoB as well equipped as a Marine Chapter. See this quote from the WH codex:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."

If we're going off of that, we could easily assume that the SoB would have a similar number of Artificier Armour, were their future codexes to include it.

Well 30 suits spread over the whole of the SoB still wouldn't be enough to give them out to units

it's only 5 each for the major orders (unless one of the minor orders was founded by a wearer of a suit who took it with her)

Haighus wrote:
1. Blood Angels do not have access to artificer armour for anything more than their Sanguinary Guard. Which are the bodyguards of their Chapter Master and originally the personal bodyguard of their Primarch. So they can't equip loads of troops with it- they have 30. It's identical to normal SM, who can only equip the chapter master bodyguard with artificer armour.

Compare to Sisters where you can equip a grand total of ZERO model with artificer armor. lol.

Haighus wrote:
2. Yes, the ecclesiarchy is powerful, but it still has nothing on the Inquisition

Yes it does. It has one or two more representatives among the High Lord of Terra, for starter. Then, it has actual, lasting control and influence over many worlds. The Inquisitors just wander around investigating and solving problems. They don't rule stuff.
The Inquisition investigate and solve very specific problems, while the Ecclesiarchy actually rules a lot of world, and is very influential to the rulers of many many many more worlds. The Inquisition do on-purpose troops and wargear requisition, the Ecclesiarchy regularly collect tithes from billions of world. Not the same income. And not geared toward the same goals.
Inquisitors are independent super special agent, they have a bunch of different ways of dealing with problems but their role is not to be a military leader. A very in-your-face style Inquisitor which doesn't care about bringing attention to himself will just wear a terminator armor, because it's better than an artificer armor, but most Inquisitor will rely for protection on things that draw way less attention, like different flavours of power-field. Because running around in power armor is not going to be unnoticed.

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor.

So, you have one. The Sisters have a similar one for exclusivity on the immolator. One each. As for being the grand-kids of the Emperor, shall I remember you about all the decree and laws and tithes they have to pay and obey because nobody trust them anymore ?
I'm sorry, I forgot to read all the parts in the fluff that emphasize how the marines are so rich and so influential. I also forgot the part where if an Order grow too big, they will be declared excomunicate traitoris and hunted for the rest of their lives.

Haighus wrote:
I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour!

Not only should they, but they should also get new high-tech grail-reliquaries-like tanks only made possible by the use of the rarest, most valued artifacts from the Dark Age of Technology, along with tons of other stuff to remind you of what they are : the most elite troop created by a megalomaniac madman without the slightest hint of sanity that happened to also have been the single most powerful individual of all of the Imperium's history apart from the Emperor. If that's not a pedigree good enough to get a unit in artificer armor, none is.

I'm just going to copy-paste something I just wrote on G+ about what is the defining identity of the Sisters against, for instance, the Black Templar, as they seem similar at first glance :
“Sisters are the “religious nutjob” faction. I bet you knew that, and will tell me how space marines are also religious extremists and black templars and yadda yadda yadda. But look at your black templar. What does he look like ? A colored marine, with maybe a bit more parchment here and there. Does his armor look like it's been designed by some half-mad lunatic ? No. It looks like it was first designed as a space marine (i.e. super-boring super-soldier mary sue) armor, with functionality being the focal point, and then superficially made “religious-like” by gluing a few bitz on top of it. The space marine armor have a very streamlined, industrially mass-produced look. And it's the same with their tanks. They look like they have been designed for efficiency first, and then the templars added a bunch of parchment over it.
The sisters embody and turn up to eleven the baroque excess of the Catholic church. That's why they have what is one of the best armor of the Imperium, but it still looks like a corset, and include fabric loincloth and sleeves. That's why their tanks include a tank-mounted organ that shoots missiles. That's why they turn people into killing machine that are kept into a total apathy (during which they will be more likely to die of starvation into their own feces than just eat the food that is in front of them) until the right word is uttered, at which point their pacifying helmet will stop, all kind of unsafe, highly dangerous combat drugs are put into their body, and they will start looking for enemies to kill until either they hear the pacifying word, or they die, possibly of exhaustion. And we are talking about something that can't even do something as simple as opening a door, because it has neither the hands (replaced by offensive bionics) nor the wits required to do so.
Basically, the Sisters are all about extreme lot of wealth, and equally extreme lack of sanity. They are even explicitly stated, in-universe, as the creation of the most powerful man ever in the Imperium, which happened to be a complete madman incapable to even understand what was happening when Alicia Dominica declared she was going to kill him.”
Can't keep that identity while at the same time being beggars compared to, well, almost all the army in the game.

 Troike wrote:

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be

Actually, codex fluff has the SoB as well equipped as a Marine Chapter. See this quote from the WH codex:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."

If we're going off of that, we could easily assume that the SoB would have a similar number of Artificier Armour, were their future codexes to include it.

Well naturally. That's why Sisters have Terminator armor right?

I think we're confusing "equal" with "identical" here.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
and while there certainly is some armour coming in from the AdMech it's not enough to equip entire units of Sisters with it

If the Adeptus Sororitas get one artificer armor from each world that pay tithes to them every hundred years, then that's billions of artificer armors. I think that's enough to equip a whole unit of Sisters .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think we're confusing "equal" with "identical" here.

I think you are confusing “equal” with “I don't want sisters to have any good wargear and I'm going out of my way to prove to everyone why they shouldn't get anything better than a power armor and a bolter”. But maybe that's just me.

As this is now out and in the wild, we'll close this thread.

Feel free to discuss issues further in the appropriate 40k board.