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Pouncey, that's the advantage of that heavy metal army: you can crush dissenters by dropping it on them when they call you a codex hopper.

ClockworkZion wrote:Pouncey, that's the advantage of that heavy metal army: you can crush dissenters by dropping it on them when they call you a codex hopper.

And people say metals have no advantages!

Pouncey wrote:Personally, I'd rather not have a top-tier Codex. Because then I would get lumped in with all the people flocking to the Sororitas for a powerful army. And when people then ask me what army I play, and I reply Sisters of Battle, they're not gonna be thinking anything other than, "Oh, another Codex hopper."

Hmm, if you say it like that ...
Even though larger sales could result in more support for Sisters in the future. But still, it would come with a sacrifice, as you point out.
I guess I'd like to settle for the happy medium then - not an underdog, but not so strong that people would buy them for their power rather than style.

Still, a powerful Canoness is a must-have.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Pouncey, that's the advantage of that heavy metal army: you can crush dissenters by dropping it on them when they call you a codex hopper.

XD

Not too likely. I only play against my mom, and only at home, and I've been using my Battle Sisters against her for at least 3-4 years now.

Plus, most people have more tact. But regardless of what they say, I'll still be thinking they're thinking it.


Lynata, that's what I'd like to see too. ^_^

Personally, I'd just like the Sisters to have the defenses necessary to stand against their foes and the strength to put the hurt on them when they get into range.

Don't need OTT Space Magic.
Don't need ICs that require the entire army to be built around them.
Don't need too many fancy new (for the Sisters) war-gear options.
Don't need to rely on allies to do the heavy lifting.

Just need the fortitude to get stuck in and get the job done.

In the current meta Power Armour is no better than paper. The Sisters need a gimmick to be effective, be it Acts of Faith giving them 3+ invulns, army-wide FNP, the ability to spam MC/Walker Penitent Engines and some sort of Exorcist buff.

Hmm, what Psienesis said.

I've been through the "Oh, a codex hopper" spiel before with my Necrons. It sucked pretty badly then, too... and most of the people I play were aware of the fact I've been collecting Necrons since 1997... and they STILL called me a codex hopper because it had been a couple of months since the last time I pulled them out.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
In the current meta Power Armour is no better than paper. The Sisters need a gimmick to be effective, be it Acts of Faith giving them 3+ invulns, army-wide FNP, the ability to spam MC/Walker Penitent Engines and some sort of Exorcist buff.

I don't know what meta you play in, but unless they start giving everyone AP3 weapons on every model power armor on Sisters is friggin' great.

And we had an Act of Faith that gave invuls equal to your armor save. It was silly.

We can take 9 Penitent Engines in a list. I don't know how you spam more than that.

And Exorcists are duckin' awesome! The only way they could be better is if they had skyfire and armorbane.

 Lynata wrote:
Still, a powerful Canoness is a must-have.

Damn right. She's the best in an army of humanity's best (Marines being post-human). Her tabletop rules really should reflect that.

Also, I'd much prefer a generic character over a special one, and that preference will certainly screw me over with the codex we have now.

 Troike wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Still, a powerful Canoness is a must-have.

Damn right. She's the best in an army of humanity's best (Marines being post-human). Her tabletop rules really should reflect that.

Also, I'd much prefer a generic character over a special one, and that preference will certainly screw me over with the codex we have now.

She's not -bad- but she lacks synergy, can't pull the Flying Nun anymore and is too close in cost to the SCs who have a lot of rules stacked on them for far too little.

I want a better Canoness AND the SC Canoness options back.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
In the current meta Power Armour is no better than paper. The Sisters need a gimmick to be effective, be it Acts of Faith giving them 3+ invulns, army-wide FNP, the ability to spam MC/Walker Penitent Engines and some sort of Exorcist buff.

I don't know what meta you play in, but unless they start giving everyone AP3 weapons on every model power armor on Sisters is friggin' great.

And we had an Act of Faith that gave invuls equal to your armor save. It was silly.

We can take 9 Penitent Engines in a list. I don't know how you spam more than that.

And Exorcists are duckin' awesome! The only way they could be better is if they had skyfire and armorbane.

A meta in which Iontides are a standard build.

It's the Wargear. The loss of mantles and books and blessed weapon etc hurt her badly. We just need our old armoury back...

Troike wrote:Also, I'd much prefer a generic character over a special one, and that preference will certainly screw me over with the codex we have now.

I'm feeling with you!

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

A meta in which Iontides are a standard build.

Well then the issue isn't that power armor sucks it's that you play with people who love their cheese.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

A meta in which Iontides are a standard build.

Well then the issue isn't that power armor sucks it's that you play with people who love their cheese.

Try playing in a league with simple Eldar, MEQ just doesn't cut it much anymore when you've got several strong AP3 breaking armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

A meta in which Iontides are a standard build.

Well then the issue isn't that power armor sucks it's that you play with people who love their cheese.

Try playing in a league with simple Eldar, MEQ just doesn't cut it much anymore when you've got several strong AP3 breaking armies.

Sisters aren't MEQ though. And they still get a save (albiet a low one) vs Bladestorm's quasi-rend.

 Lynata wrote:
It's the Wargear. The loss of mantles and books and blessed weapon etc hurt her badly. We just need our old armoury back...

Troike wrote:Also, I'd much prefer a generic character over a special one, and that preference will certainly screw me over with the codex we have now.

I'm feeling with you!

I would like to field my custom Sisterhood's Canoness (though her organization is small enough that the lesser rank of Palatine would be more appropriate) instead of busting out my crazily souped-up holy warrior of superslaughter every time. It's starting to feel a little repetitive, and when I go change my list to exchange my not-Celestine for my Palatine, just for a change, I feel like I'm deliberately weakening my army.

A better Cannoness might be #2 priority for a new codex. More variety is #1.

Those two things are tightly connected, methings!

Agreed. A better synergized Canoness would mean less seeing all the SCs running around all the time meaning more diversity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh! Fun thought! Canoness unlocks Celestians as Troops!

ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh! Fun thought! Canoness unlocks Celestians as Troops!

I could see a specific canoness doing that but not the default. Otherwise, who leads the normal battle sisters?

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh! Fun thought! Canoness unlocks Celestians as Troops!

I could see a specific canoness doing that but not the default. Otherwise, who leads the normal battle sisters?

Palatines.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh! Fun thought! Canoness unlocks Celestians as Troops!

I could see a specific canoness doing that but not the default. Otherwise, who leads the normal battle sisters?

Palatines.

Meh. From a fluff standpoint?

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh! Fun thought! Canoness unlocks Celestians as Troops!

I could see a specific canoness doing that but not the default. Otherwise, who leads the normal battle sisters?

Palatines.

Meh. From a fluff standpoint?

From a fluff standpoint a Palatine is more likely to be in charge of a smaller covent and as thus will have Battle Sisters as her main force. A Canoness is higher on the food chain and has a larger selection of units and could effectively use Celestians as her main force, at least personally.

I'd be happy if a Canoness made at least 1 unit of Celestians a troop choice just to make her do something for the army (unlock a scoring unit that actually works with her AoF). Of course it'd help if you could by Celestians CCW.

That's always a possibility too. Sararissas count as CCWs but can only be taken by models with bolters.

Celestians as troops is good, don't get me wrong. It gives us a 5 girl troop choice, which is a big deal.

I think Canoness needs more synergy with the army though.

If the army keeps the D6 faith mechanic, you could let the Canoness add 2 to that number while alive. Gives scaling for higher points games and certainty to your rolls.

 pretre wrote:
Celestians as troops is good, don't get me wrong. It gives us a 5 girl troop choice, which is a big deal.

I think Canoness needs more synergy with the army though.

If the army keeps the D6 faith mechanic, you could let the Canoness add 2 to that number while alive. Gives scaling for higher points games and certainty to your rolls.

Canoness would synergize with Celestians if they could take CCWs.

BSS with the ability to take 5-20 models is something I want too. 10ppm (or less) a special or heavy at 5 and 15 and another special at 10 and 20. Make scaling worth it.

As for Faith I still stand by the mesh of 3rd and 6th. A point per Sororitas unit on the board each player turn, 2 for a Palatine and 3 for a Canoness. And acts that can be used in every phase. This gives plenty of synergy, adds a real tangible bonus for the HQs who serve as the pillars of faith in the order and generally makes things better.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Canoness would synergize with Celestians if they could take CCWs.

Well, to be fair the Celestians would synergize with their faith act if they could do that.

BSS with the ability to take 5-20 models is something I want too. 10ppm (or less) a special or heavy at 5 and 15 and another special at 10 and 20. Make scaling worth it.

I don't know about 5. I think the Celestians as troops would be a good work around for that. I do like the idea of additional special/heavy at higher model count.

As for Faith I still stand by the mesh of 3rd and 6th. A point per Sororitas unit on the board each player turn, 2 for a Palatine and 3 for a Canoness. And acts that can be used in every phase. This gives plenty of synergy, adds a real tangible bonus for the HQs who serve as the pillars of faith in the order and generally makes things better.

Well, then Celestine would give 3 (and lose D3 on death) and Jacobus/Kyrinov would give 2. At least based on 3rd.

It probably depends on what exactly the army on the board is supposed to represent. A normal detachment from the Order, or a special, very objective-specific one?
The Strike Force list in CJ #49 was all Celestians and Seraphim because killing off a Marine Chapter is a special kind of mission where an Order would send only its best.

That being said, I think such special cases should better be solved via Apoc formations, similar to the Repentant Host and the Purge Squadron. Unless there's a way to get those into the standard game, too. By standard, the Celestians are much more of an elite bodyguard, I think. I wouldn't really like seeing them become a new standard for SoB line troops, but it might be cool for smaller games maybe? Perhaps there could be a points limit, so you can use them in this fashion below a certain value. For 500 pts games, for example. Almost in a kill-team style.

Though, perhaps this is where the Palatine could come in handy. It'd fit to her fluff-role as right hand of a Canoness...

"Alright. Take a bunch of Celestians, go there, and kill everything!" - "Yes Mistress!"

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Canoness would synergize with Celestians if they could take CCWs.

Well, to be fair the Celestians would synergize with their faith act if they could do that.

True, and it'd make them more useful and well rounded.

 pretre wrote:

BSS with the ability to take 5-20 models is something I want too. 10ppm (or less) a special or heavy at 5 and 15 and another special at 10 and 20. Make scaling worth it.

I don't know about 5. I think the Celestians as troops would be a good work around for that. I do like the idea of additional special/heavy at higher model count.

5 means BSS can fit inside of an Immolator.

 pretre wrote:

As for Faith I still stand by the mesh of 3rd and 6th. A point per Sororitas unit on the board each player turn, 2 for a Palatine and 3 for a Canoness. And acts that can be used in every phase. This gives plenty of synergy, adds a real tangible bonus for the HQs who serve as the pillars of faith in the order and generally makes things better.

Well, then Celestine would give 3 (and lose D3 on death) and Jacobus/Kyrinov would give 2. At least based on 3rd.

ClockworkZion wrote:
5 means BSS can fit inside of an Immolator.

I don't think that is necessary. It was weird that they gave the Immo to BSS in the WD.

 pretre wrote:
Celestine giving a bonus with a penalty like that everytime she dies is characterful though. I like that.

That's the way it was previously. Although, you only lost points the first time, iirc.

 pretre wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
5 means BSS can fit inside of an Immolator.

I don't think that is necessary. It was weird that they gave the Immo to BSS in the WD.

I like the option though and find it weirder that they get a transport they can't ride inside of.

 pretre wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Celestine giving a bonus with a penalty like that everytime she dies is characterful though. I like that.

That's the way it was previously. Although, you only lost points the first time, iirc.

True, but Faith points were more limited back then. Faith basically powering her resurrection is kind of awesome.

ClockworkZion wrote:I like the option though and find it weirder that they get a transport they can't ride inside of.

/agree

5-20 sounds like a good range that'd also offer options for any sort of game (pointswise), and it fits to the fluff of a squad essentially being a "family unit".

ClockworkZion wrote:Faith basically powering her resurrection is kind of awesome.

Heh, even fits into my theory about the nature of Living Saints.