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 Furyou Miko wrote:
He means that in that squad, there have to be more Sisters than Novices, just like the BT Crusader squads have to have more Initiates than Novices.

Armageddon is in Segmentum Solar.

More to the point, the Sol system itself has been attacked by the Necrons, who managed to land a ship on Mars, and by a combined force of Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks and Soul Drinkers during the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.

I apologize for forgetting about where Armageddon is. I don't recall a second seige on the Emperor's Palace though, which conflict was this? If you mean the Reign of Blood, that was an Ecclesiarchal palace which is not the same as the Emperor's Palace.

Even with this in mind there hasn't really been enough to say the Imperium is that screwed, yet. We know the Golden Throne is failing, and that really is the lynchpin on what will happen to the Imperium honestly, but we the timeline is right now I don't see Novices being deployed right now. To me at least the idea doesn't jive with hos I see the Sisters normally work.

And how "elite" can we claim to be as a human army that just throws recruits into the middle of wars? Because to really be putting them on the table that's basically what we're representing: putting our traininess, of which there is an insanely small nmber into the thressing machine that is war. I don't see this as a "good thing" for the Sisterhood to be doing honestly.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Hrm.... I don't play BT so I'm not familiar with how those squads work, but I would think blending those various armor and stat saves might get a bit cumbersome to gameplay, especially considering having varying WS and Ld to the squad.

You always use the highest leadership unless something forces you to use a lower one. That said, I've already voiced my opinion about us further borrowing from the Marines with these things, much less borrowing from the chapter who keeps borrowing elements from us.

Blending the armour saves is easy under new wound allocation rules. I still don't like the unit much though, A) because it rips off the Templars, and B) because we don't need yoofs.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars.

Not that I'm argueing in favour of that idea, but technically ... as opposed to what, ripping of Vanilla Marines?

The funny thing about the Templar Neophytes is that the BT supposedly have a very good relationship with the Sisters, and using their Scouts as "squires" in a Marine squad is a pretty big deviation from the Codex Astartes. What if they actually got this idea from the Sororitas?

Just throwing it out there. It's not really worth debating if Novices are generally unwanted, of course.

Sure, but not every tabletop battle represents the "business as usual" engagement for the army in question. Providing these Novices as an optional troop allows the player to depict an end-of-times or desperate-measures battle.

Maybe in their local campaigns, the Minor Orders are responsible for training the Novices that show the most aptitude for their particular style of combat, and so these squads provide something for those players to use as an option, rather than having to house-rule in IG squads or whatever.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars.

Not that I'm argueing in favour of that idea, but technically ... as opposed to what, ripping of Vanilla Marines?

Since Templars are now Vanilla, is there a difference really, or are we splitting hairs?

We share plenty with Marines, and that's fine, but I really think Sisters need to go their own way now instead of sharing MORE with Marines.

ClockworkZion wrote:I apologize for forgetting about where Armageddon is. I don't recall a second seige on the Emperor's Palace though, which conflict was this? If you mean the Reign of Blood, that was an Ecclesiarchal palace which is not the same as the Emperor's Palace.

You're right, I apologise. I meant the Second Siege of Terra.

Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars.

Not that I'm argueing in favour of that idea, but technically ... as opposed to what, ripping of Vanilla Marines?

The funny thing about the Templar Neophytes is that the BT supposedly have a very good relationship with the Sisters, and using their Scouts as "squires" in a Marine squad is a pretty big deviation from the Codex Astartes. What if they actually got this idea from the Sororitas?

Just throwing it out there. It's not really worth debating if Novices are generally unwanted, of course.

Maybe how about just one or two "Aspirants" as squad attachments to the non-veteran units? So Battle Sisters, Dominions and Retributors can each take one or two of these carapace-armoured Aspirants in the squad... although I don't see what battlefield purpose they would hold.

Psienesis wrote:Sure, but not every tabletop battle represents the "business as usual" engagement for the army in question. Providing these Novices as an optional troop allows the player to depict an end-of-times or desperate-measures battle.

It kind of reminds me how many army lists currently have Saint Celestine, the Living Saint, as their HQ.

Although personally I'm actually against such "special things". Purely a matter of preference, but I much prefer an army list to represent "business as usual" rather than being filled to the brim with special characters and emergency units etc. Not that I believe an emergency would be the only justification to field Novices.

ClockworkZion wrote:Since Templars are now Vanilla, is there a difference really, or are we splitting hairs?

Then it is you who is splitting hairs, for regardless of whether we add Novices to them or leave them out of it, our Battle Sister squad fills all requirements for your definition of a rip-off.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sure, but not every tabletop battle represents the "business as usual" engagement for the army in question. Providing these Novices as an optional troop allows the player to depict an end-of-times or desperate-measures battle.

Maybe in their local campaigns, the Minor Orders are responsible for training the Novices that show the most aptitude for their particular style of combat, and so these squads provide something for those players to use as an option, rather than having to house-rule in IG squads or whatever.

Alternatively you could argue that it promotes the idea that they're always available and it's "business as usual" throw Novies under the bus like that.

Well, that could be done away with by the fluff-entries for the unit in the Codex. The text could simply explain that they are not commonly seen on the battlefield, being deployed only in the most desperate of times, or if the world upon which they are training is attacked.

Alternately, it could be a unit available only in certain Mission scenarios. Deployed only in a Cities of Death or similar Mission, where the battle is taking place in an Imperial Hive World or other population center... the Novices were being shown a Genetic Purity Sweep by the experienced Sisters (perhaps with a token IG ally force to represent Arbites) when, suddenly, Heretics. Or Xenos. Or Traitors.

Or they're deployed in a "Defend the Priory" Mission, which is a variant on a Capture/Defend Mission. The Sisters deploy in the center of the table, the enemies deploy from one (or more) table edges (depending on points level, this could be a multi-player battle). The Sisters and their Novices (and their allies, if any) have to defend the center of the table for X turns before reinforcements arrive (like.... 1500 other Sisters dropping out of the sky on wings of fire and in Dominica-pattern pods.).

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, that could be done away with by the fluff-entries for the unit in the Codex. The text could simply explain that they are not commonly seen on the battlefield, being deployed only in the most desperate of times, or if the world upon which they are training is attacked.

Alternately, it could be a unit available only in certain Mission scenarios. Deployed only in a Cities of Death or similar Mission, where the battle is taking place in an Imperial Hive World or other population center... the Novices were being shown a Genetic Purity Sweep by the experienced Sisters (perhaps with a token IG ally force to represent Arbites) when, suddenly, Heretics. Or Xenos. Or Traitors.

Or they're deployed in a "Defend the Priory" Mission, which is a variant on a Capture/Defend Mission. The Sisters deploy in the center of the table, the enemies deploy from one (or more) table edges (depending on points level, this could be a multi-player battle). The Sisters and their Novices (and their allies, if any) have to defend the center of the table for X turns before reinforcements arrive (like.... 1500 other Sisters dropping out of the sky on wings of fire and in Dominica-pattern pods.).

In that case you don't put them in the codex, you put them in the Missions like the Eldar Supplement did their SC who can only be in certain missions.

The upcoming codex includes missions.

One of them even features a mission-specific character.

Just about every Codex ever has contained at least one or two pages of Mission ideas. I dunno that we should argue whether or not it goes in this book or that book... especially if you consider those supplements as, well, supplements to the Codex. Might as well throw them in the Codex if you have them ready-to-print at the same time.

I, personally, would probably *not* run Novice squads in most of my games, but I'd like for it to be an option... and, if GW can sculpt them roughly along the same lines as those "Necromundan Juve Gangers" (though less with the stockings and miniskirts, more with the blazers and pleated plaid), to set them apart from the Sisters and their power armor, that would be cool.

Blend Carapace Armor and a Catholic school uniform? They'd be in business.

Hell. I'd buy four or five boxes for use in other RPGs.

Psienesis wrote:Catholic school uniform

The Adepta Sororitas - now serving two fetishes instead of just one

 Psienesis wrote:

I, personally, would probably *not* run Novice squads in most of my games, but I'd like for it to be an option... and, if GW can sculpt them roughly along the same lines as those "Necromundan Juve Gangers" (though less with the stockings and miniskirts, more with the blazers and pleated plaid), to set them apart from the Sisters and their power armor, that would be cool.

Blend Carapace Armor and a Catholic school uniform? They'd be in business.

Hell. I'd buy four or five boxes for use in other RPGs.

Don't Copplestone or Hasselfree do not "Sucker Punch" models - love that film.

Oh, I don't think it's a separate fetish at all, just a sub-category of the first one.

Hmm ... you may have a point there.

Mr Morden wrote:Sucker Punch

That was a very neat action flick. But it had some really sad parts.

@Miko are you referring to the old missions that are likely reprints/updates in this codex?

Specifically, one of the Battle Missions released as part of the White Dwarf codex involved finding a Cardinal who was an objective and had a laspistol and a rosarius.

Does it matter, in the end? I mean, they've had Mission scenarios for 20-some years now, they've pretty much got all the plausible write-ups for these pretty well covered. That they might be reprinting ones that have been released in the past is, to me, not that big a deal, because every Codex is going to be someone's very first introduction to the faction, so why not throw in some stuff that has worked well in the past?

Whether they're doing a simple copy-pasta job or taking the seeds of the Mission Scenarios and providing some new text that only changes the setting or the vibe (such as "Defend the Relic" becomes "Defend the Priory")... I don't really see that as being that significant a change.

I will say, I don't mind so much if they're just the old missions again. I've read over those missions, they actually look quite fun. Better something old but good than nothing at all, at least.

I recall a mission in one of the White Dwarves following the Minidex release where you'd roll a d6 to determine what the Sisters find when arriving at a Shrine they're supposed to protect. It could be anything from a relic to a priest trying to hide there.

The other has them defending a shrine (which the enemy can destroy) and trying to kill an enemy leader, who is dubbed the "arch-heretic". Straightforward enough, but nicely suited to their fluff.

 Psienesis wrote:
Does it matter, in the end? I mean, they've had Mission scenarios for 20-some years now, they've pretty much got all the plausible write-ups for these pretty well covered. That they might be reprinting ones that have been released in the past is, to me, not that big a deal, because every Codex is going to be someone's very first introduction to the faction, so why not throw in some stuff that has worked well in the past?

Whether they're doing a simple copy-pasta job or taking the seeds of the Mission Scenarios and providing some new text that only changes the setting or the vibe (such as "Defend the Relic" becomes "Defend the Priory")... I don't really see that as being that significant a change.

I was just curious, either way the point was that if we really want to try and try and show the Novices for only the most dire of circumstances then writing up a mission to reflect that with them as an optional troop choice (or even a mandatory of 1 with a minimum purchase and allow them to take more/upgrade them a bit) would be the best bet instead of slapping them into the main codex. That'll capture the feel of what people seem to be aiming for without making them something that can be spammed all over the board.


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 Troike wrote:
The other has them defending a shrine (which the enemy can destroy) and trying to kill an enemy leader, who is dubbed the "arch-heretic". Straightforward enough, but nicely suited to their fluff.

I do not want to play a game with a destructible terrain piece against Imperial Fists. D:

Some have proposed novices as a fodder unit, but when you consider that the SoB novices would have gone through training at the Schola Progenium just like Arbites, Stormtroopers, and Commisars... None of those are fodder units and thus I can't believe SoB novices would be either.

Well, Space Marines aren't a fodder-unit, either, but the current meta of the table-top game sure makes fodder out of them. A given unit's performance on the table rarely aligns with even the Codex fluff about them, let alone anything in a BL novel.

Novices would end up being as much fodder as the IG is, simply through the mechanics of dice and what other armies bring to the table.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Some have proposed novices as a fodder unit, but when you consider that the SoB novices would have gone through training at the Schola Progenium just like Arbites, Stormtroopers, and Commisars... None of those are fodder units and thus I can't believe SoB novices would be either.

I agree, which was my point. If you want to illustrate them being on the table then it's best to restrict them to the times/places they would be and not making them available for everything.

aka_mythos wrote:Some have proposed novices as a fodder unit, but when you consider that the SoB novices would have gone through training at the Schola Progenium just like Arbites, Stormtroopers, and Commisars... None of those are fodder units and thus I can't believe SoB novices would be either.

It depends on how you define "fodder unit". As Psienesis said, TT-wise, any unit in the troops section of any army would qualify for this term, yet fluffwise that doesn't mean they are meant to be. I'd regard Novices in the same light. Actually, Battle Sisters too.

But the truly interesting thing about your comparison?

"Cadet Commissars are allocated to Commissar Training Squads by the Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard regiment. [...] The Commissar Training Squad accompanies Imperial Guard forces into battle and takes part in some of the fiercest fighting."
- WD #115

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, Space Marines aren't a fodder-unit, either, but the current meta of the table-top game sure makes fodder out of them. A given unit's performance on the table rarely aligns with even the Codex fluff about them, let alone anything in a BL novel.

Novices would end up being as much fodder as the IG is, simply through the mechanics of dice and what other armies bring to the table.

Yeah, but if you really want them to be in those situations I've been having thrown at me, special missions are the way to do it. Otherwise it's pretty pointless to try to push them as being anything other than our new cheap cannon fodder unit that will be taken enmasse because it'll get us cheaper scoring bodies than Sisters.

If that's your concern, an easy solution would be to simply not make them scoring, as I believe was actually the case with the rules SisterSydney has proposed.

And/or limit the number of such units, just like the number of IG used to be limited to 2 per Sister Dialogous in the CA list - where you could only take the Sister Dialogous once.
Just swap the Sister Dialogous for a Mistress of Novices and you see where I'm going with this.