Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why am I not surprised, SisterSydney...

Psienesis wrote:Eh, what's her face, M'Shen, she survived in the hands of the Night Lords for, what, three days? Four? And she was just an Assassin... they had also removed all four of her limbs and all of her suicide-teeth and other tricks, and she *still* held out.
Even then, she only gave them a partial answer, which granted her a quick death, so she still ended up trollololing them, in the end, to a degree.

In some Black Library novel. Remember, that's the same origin that routinely lets Sisters fall to Chaos in large numbers.
In Codex fluff, what happened to her is entirely unknown.

Though, hypothetically, it could always be argued that as an operative of the Assassinorum she'd have her pain senses stunted or disabled entirely through some biochemical mumbo-jumbo, specifically to resist interrogation upon capture.
This wouldn't work for Sisters, because rather than trying to get rid of pain they embrace it and thrive upon it, using it as a conduit for their spiritual cleansing and as a proof of their faith.

Mr Morden wrote:Miriael - Is it confirmed thats its still her and not something wearing her body like Fulgrim was for some time? I do agree that by choosing to live - she has become corrupted and hence disrupts the "none who have ever fallen" for isntance those few Sisters who were mind controlled by a Chaos Warmaster in the Cains Last Stand novel immediately kill themselves when they regain control of their minds and body, but they never willingly accept the corruption and choose life as a follower of Chaos.

Given that psychic intrusion can be fend off by a strong mind, in that case I could well argue that those silly novel Sisters have "chosen to give in to corruption" as well. They seem to agree, given that they've killed themselves, seeing they were not strong enough.
I just don't see the difference between being thrown out of one's balance by psychic, or by physical torture. Either twists your mind beyond the "normal" allure of Chaos promises. Especially since we don't know what exactly Miriael has suffered.

As for "something wearing her body", she certainly acts like an angry Ex-Sister rather than something else merely possessing her:

"By the power of the Throne, and the God-Emperor-" Karamanz began.
"Shut up! I won’t listen to that anymore."

You can read the entire story here:
Part 1
Part 2

I have to say, I actually like how Abnett portrayed the Sisters here. Making their appearance something special, and even hinting at juvenat treatments of the Canoness, or that she has her own shuttle.
It also is a delicious suggestion that what we read in a Codex may just as well be flawed propaganda, regardless of whether this concerns the fantastical exploits of the Space Marines, or the incorruptability of the Sororitas. Which is what we've been told by authors all the time, if you remember.

PS: That story is also the one and only bit of fluff that ever featured the "none have ever fallen" in the first place. If you disregard it, there is nothing to disrupt.

I think there is a fundemental difference between the loss of control over your physical body or mind and accepting or even embracing it. Going back to the infamous Bloodtide - to me it implies that the Sisters bodies were tainted by the Choas plague but they did not cause them to embrace or accept the cause of the Heretic and cultist?

If you have no control over your mind and /or body and its simply used - thats beyond your control - minds and bodies can be broken but if you are not complicit then you have been corrupted yourself only destroyed and in the 40K universe you would still have a place with the Emperor.

The Powers of Chaos can aminmate the dead, Possess bodies living or dead but if you are not complicit than you are not corrupt. You can coniditon your body to resist damage and ignore pain but wounds still occur and have effects.

thanks for the links - Read through the story and it certainaly seems like she is a Sister but then thats what a clever Daemon would want its enemies to think perhaps?? I did think that not wanting to hear the praise of the Emperor is also possibily the reacition of a Daemon but yeah it could just be her not wanting to be reminded etc - which also makes as much or more sense.

re the Assassin, The Night Lords do talk about how they have countered her bio-chemical defences, its only her will that enables her to last 4 days - far longer than anyone else they have tortured - however I doubt she relishes the honour. Wasn't Mirials fluff that she lasted much longer- is that from somewhere specific?

Mr Morden wrote:If you have no control over your mind and /or body and its simply used - thats beyond your control

Not if one argues that you have to give up that control first.
Psychic powers can be resisted - this is what the Shield of Faith and Adamantium Will are all about. So if it still happens, your conviction, your faith simply was not strong enough. So how is this different from breaking under torture..?

I can only say I have much less of a problem with Miriael being broken after howevermany weeks of physical and psychic torture, than with droves of Sisters being mind-controlled like good little puppets.

Mr Morden wrote:Wasn't Mirials fluff that she lasted much longer- is that from somewhere specific?

I don't think this was ever specified anywhere. The Order had written her off as dead, and then she reappeared.
To my knowledge, there is literally no fluff about Miriael whatsoever other than this short story and the artworks that accompany her CCG cards.

I just re-read the story myself and noticed many details I didn't catch last time, or maybe have just forgotten. For example that Miriael gives us the name of her boss:




I guess the story just applies to both my interpretation of the setting, as well as my love for certain types of dramatic narration:

"Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion."

I think this just sounds much better, somewhat more realistic even, than full no-exceptions-regardless-of-what-happens-marysue-immunity. Matter of taste, though.

Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body? and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?

Likewise several Sisters were captured in the Siege of Vraks, held captive and tortured for years but do not appear to have succumbed in spirit - even if they were broken in mind and body.

I know you hate them but...........its not hoards - its several - likely 4 or 5 - going by the source material.......

And the your quote is good - in fact its the whole point behind the Mind Controlled Sisters in that story - the Warmaster has a few to show the enormity of his power - "What a trophy" If I can control them - no one is safe etc. But even he can not touch their spirits...............which for me is the essence of the Sororitas?

Mr Morden wrote:Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body?

Hum? That was referring to mind control of living people.
After all, if your faith was strong enough, you'd have succeeded on that Adamantium Will roll.

Mr Morden wrote:and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?

That's my point. They all had no choice. None of them fell willingly - not Miriael, not the Sisters at the Bloodtide. In every single case, the corruption was not invited (as is the case with seduction) but forced upon them.

In short, in my opinion, Miriael is much, much closer to the Bloodtide-Sisters or Rosetta Anastasia, than to some random Chaos schmuck where a daemon just had to be like "Hey, want power?" and he replied "Hell yeah!"
You seem to think the opposite?

 Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body?

Hum? That was referring to mind control of living people.
After all, if your faith was strong enough, you'd have succeeded on that Adamantium Will roll.

Mr Morden wrote:and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?

That's my point. They all had no choice. None of them fell willingly - not Miriael, not the Sisters at the Bloodtide. In every single case, the corruption was not invited (as is the case with seduction) but forced upon them.

In short, in my opinion, Miriael is much, much closer to the Bloodtide-Sisters or Rosetta Anastasia, than to some random Chaos schmuck where a daemon just had to be like "Hey, want power?" and he replied "Hell yeah!"
You seem to think the opposite?

Yes but she has - if I am reading the story right - not just been broken in body and mind but taken it to the next step - she has embraced Chaos - which none of the others have done?

They lost thier lives and / or minds - she lost her Soul - Not sure if I am making my arguments very well but thats the difference I see. At some point she became complicit in a way that none of the others did? So whatever they went through they are stiill "uncorrupted" in the sense of keeping thier soul pure - she is not.

Mr Morden wrote:So whatever they went through they are stiill "uncorrupted" in the sense of keeping thier soul pure - she is not.

They seem to disagree, otherwise they would not have killed themselves.

Which, by itself, is a rather odd choice - if they have sinned by allowing their possession, they have now committed the double-sin of also not giving their soul to the Emperor upon death. A proper Sister should have sought redemption in the Repentia Corps.

Anyways, I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. In this case it does not matter if you embrace Chaos or not, because at this point you already were no longer in control of yourself. You were broken. Exactly like mind-control means you were no longer yourself. In both cases it was forced upon you, not a conscious decision made at free will.

The way I see it, the critical factor is the "moment of decision" and what sort of intentions you had. You can either invite corruption by falling prey to its allure, or you can try to resist and still be broken. Miriael's case, to me, firmly falls into the latter category. As do the Bloodtide-Sisters. As do your mind-controlled novel Sororitas.

(wow, this is almost a theological debate we're having - I could see the Ecclesiarchy discussing stuff like this all day )

hmmm The difficulty is we don't what happened to Miriael - we just know the outcome............at some point someone or more likely something must have said to her - join with us and all this will stop - the moment of choice / damnation?

"Daemon princes sing and my pulse quickens."

The Sisters in the Siege of Vraks are broken but not corrupt...........they get burnt by the Inquisition to the outrage of the Sororitas and various members of the Ordo Hereticus but like the Bloodtide Martyrs - they are Martyrs as they stayed true to their beliefs no matter what was done to them? Sisters for millenia have been killed in hrrific ways, subject to abuse by powers of the Warp and the Xenos - that they stodd true despite their lack of immunity shows the true nature of their faith.

Agreed - this is a debate about the nature of corruption and the purity of souls

I just read Sacrifce by Ben Counter in a complilation - now I am not a fan of his work but it describes well what is needed to maintian the Imperium in this case for the Grey Knights - how the weapons and armour that they use are consecrated and the sacrifces that are made. It may not be cannon but it was good stuff - the first story is about consecrated bolt rounds - so as the protagonst fires his gun we switch to see how the bolt round was consecrated in the blood of a "good man" -as the Cardinal says - what use is the sarcifce of a sinner. Then we have Psykers being consumed in fire to temper the agesis of the armour - it just seemed very 40k to me.................

 Lynata wrote:
I think this just sounds much better, somewhat more realistic even, than full no-exceptions-regardless-of-what-happens-marysue-immunity. Matter of taste, though.

If you want realism, torture does not work. We've got plenty of evidence of that, most recently from the CIA sabotaging the search for Bin Laden by using torture to extract false information from prisoners. You can claim that the torturers in this case have extraordinary tools at their disposal, but so does a Sister of Battle. Having the most powerful psychic entity in the setting at your back and knowing it, and having this as the number one recruitment requirement from a population of trillions, does not give you people who will fall to Chaos. Finding this immunity a coincidence when it is an implicit prerequisite of joining the organisation is as absurd as wondering why the entire roster of the Chicago Bulls are of above average height.

Mr Morden wrote:I just read Sacrifce by Ben Counter in a complilation - now I am not a fan of his work [...]

Really? But he wrote Daemonblood!

Mr Morden wrote:[...] but it describes well what is needed to maintian the Imperium in this case for the Grey Knights - how the weapons and armour that they use are consecrated and the sacrifces that are made. It may not be cannon but it was good stuff - the first story is about consecrated bolt rounds - so as the protagonst fires his gun we switch to see how the bolt round was consecrated in the blood of a "good man" -as the Cardinal says - what use is the sarcifce of a sinner. Then we have Psykers being consumed in fire to temper the agesis of the armour - it just seemed very 40k to me.................

I have to say, that does sound fitting. Almost tempts me to give it a try, too ...
What compilation was that in? A general short story one, or was it just about Marines?

AlexHolker wrote:If you want realism, torture does not work. We've got plenty of evidence of that, most recently from the CIA sabotaging the search for Bin Laden by using torture to extract false information from prisoners.

That's kind of a flawed comparison, though. In your example about the CIA's torture of prisoners, they wanted information, and they (for the most part) likely had little in the way of actually confirming whether the statements extracted from prisoners are true or false.
In the case of Miriael, there are two important things to consider:
- the Emperor's Children very likely did not want information, for them it was probably part of their games just like what they did on Terra during the Heresy. As such, Miriael had no way of escaping prolonged exposure.
- one does not simply renounce the Emperor. Whilst they might be willing to lie about military matters, if an EC-CSM asks you "do you renounce your False Emperor?", and the victim actually says "yes" to gain a reprieve, then she has already forsaken her oath and her faith, even if it was intended as a lie.

AlexHolker wrote:Having the most powerful psychic entity in the setting at your back and knowing it, and having this as the number one recruitment requirement from a population of trillions, does not give you people who will fall to Chaos. Finding this immunity a coincidence when it is an implicit prerequisite of joining the organisation is as absurd as wondering why the entire roster of the Chicago Bulls are of above average height.

Another flawed comparison. "Faith" cannot be quantified like body heights or genetic purity. The Schola and the Sororitas have many means to test the convictions of their members, and put it to the test daily, but there is no such thing as an "official willpower level" with solid numbers where one just needs to look up a chart and say yes or no - and I am quite certain that whatever Miriael had to go through is not something that would be considered a good test for applicants...

Oh hey, one of my wishes (maybe made ITT, but definetely made on /tg/) was sort of granted. I wanted Celestians to be more adaptable, and with the Command Squad, we've gotten that. The Celestians in there are now very versatile indeed, and can take a large variety of weapons. Going to enjoy tinkering with them., will probably buy several models to swap around as needed so that they can adapt to whatever they'll be going against.

So, interesting tidbit, Cruddace claimed in a letter that the SoB were one of his favourite armies. Given that, it's quite possible that he could be working on the proper update when it gets made. Thoughts? Personally I'm more comfortable with the idea than I was before, since I think he did an okay job with the digital dex, and we came out a better, more interesting army than we were before. However some may still have their reservations about they guy.

Troike wrote:Oh hey, one of my wishes (maybe made ITT, but definetely made on /tg/) was sort of granted. I wanted Celestians to be more adaptable, and with the Command Squad, we've gotten that. The Celestians in there are now very versatile indeed, and can take a large variety of weapons. Going to enjoy tinkering with them., will probably buy several models to swap around as needed so that they can adapt to whatever they'll be going against.

Agreed. Honestly, I still think they're missing shields (something that is almost suspiciously absent from the army, given the symbolical meaning), but hey .. power weapons make them a lot more dangerous in CC than they were before, befitting a bodyguard.
Giving every single Celestian a Condemnor gun just to mess with enemy psykers almost lets me grimace a trollface, too.

Too bad that this customisability doesn't extend to normal Celestian squads, but I suppose one cannot have everything.

Troike wrote:So, interesting tidbit, Cruddace claimed in a letter that the SoB were one of his favourite armies. Given that, it's quite possible that he could be working on the proper update when it gets made. Thoughts? Personally I'm more comfortable with the idea than I was before, since I think he did an okay job with the digital dex, and we came out a better, more interesting army than we were before. However some may still have their reservations about they guy.

Well, I think he did a good job with IG (even though I still miss the old doctrines), so ... why not?
It depends on what opinion he has on certain specific aspects of their fluff and gameplay, but that's hard to gauge without an interview.

Is it certain he wrote the digital dex, by the way? I was confused by it not listing any names whatsoever.

 Lynata wrote:
It depends on what opinion he has on certain specific aspects of their fluff and gameplay, but that's hard to gauge without an interview.

Well... He did say that they're one of his favourites, and I'd assume he's seen the fluff in the last two codexes at least, since he was involved in writing them. I'm hoping that translates into aptitude at writing their fluff, but we can't be sure. As for gameplay, well, here's the letter he wrote to MadCowCrazy:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
PS. The Sisters of Battle are indeed one of my favourite armies and I completely
agree with you on your comments about them excelling in the 12-18" range. In my
mind they are typified as a close-ranged shooting army, and the Acts of Faith are
what helps to give an edge in a fight (and hence make them feel unique). I also think
you're 'on the money' in regards to not giving plasma, lascannons or rocket
launchers - in my opinion an army is as much defined by those weapons they do not
have as well as those they do.

He seems to have an adequate understanding of their playstyle, and the digital codex was allright. On the whole, I'm cautiously optimistic about him.

 Lynata wrote:
Is it certain he wrote the digital dex, by the way? I was confused by it not listing any names whatsoever.

The iTunes version credits him for it, and what he said at Games Day seems to indicate that he was very much involved with writing the thing.

Troike wrote:Well... He did say that they're one of his favourites, and I'd assume he's seen the fluff in the last two codexes at least, since he was involved in writing them. I'm hoping that translates into aptitude at writing their fluff, but we can't be sure.

Yeah, even "favourite army" can mean a lot when we consider deviating interpretations. We're certainly debating minor details all the time here.
As for the Witch Hunter Codex ... well, "additional material", I don't think he had too much to do with it...

But yeah, let's wait and see, huh? He's certainly one of the better choices currently in the studio. Liking an army already goes a long way to doing it justice, even if there's differences in interpretation concerning some things.
For the moment, the only one I could think of as being a better choice would be Andy Hoare, just because he was our champion in the studio and has a long history with this army ... alas, he's no longer there.

Troike wrote:The iTunes version credits him for it

Honestly, I'm a bit irritated at GW for how the two versions differ from one another. How hard is it to put ONE document into TWO file formats?

A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.

 Lynata wrote:
As for the Witch Hunter Codex ... well, "additional material", I don't think he had too much to do with it...

Oh, when I said "last two codexes" I meant the new digital one and the WD one. I'm counting them as two codexes for the purposes of this point, since the digital one was actually pretty different.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.

Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.

Troike wrote:Oh, when I said "last two codexes" I meant the new digital one and the WD one. I'm counting them as two codexes for the purposes of this point, since the digital one was actually pretty different.

Oh. I interpreted "the last" as "not the current one".

Troike wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.

Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.

As long as they're not ending up too different ...
It's really just the lily on the models that do have a helmet - and the golden trim on the armour, but that's done in painting.

That being said, the new customisability - especially with the Command Squad bodyguard - would certainly work much better with plastics where you could easily swap weapons/gear.

 Troike wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.

Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.

I did just that with my Celestians. Used a small green-stuff mold (made from a sister superior with a fleur helm) to create little fleurs and attached them to the helmeted Battle Sisters that I extracted from the packs. Results were mixed.

I then insured that I had no non-celestians (excepting superiors) wearing helms, green-stuffed hoods onto all my Troops choices, and painted the celestians with white robes, rather than black (like the rest of the army). My Sisters are probably my most converted army

Cool. Hoods are pretty tricky.