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Hi all, so I’m returning to the game at the start of sixth edition after a long hiatus, as anyone who’s read my other posts will know. I used to be a Blood Angels player but they appear to have gotten the sort end of all the sticks so I’m now I’m looking at another army to start collecting. I’m looking most seriously at either Chaos or Eldar. Partly because they’re cool but partly because they’re the only 6th ed. codexes I have access to through friends without having to buy ones prior to starting an army. I really like the new Eldar models/army, but was thinking of allying in some DE Venoms carrying 5 kabalite warriors each to score objectives. My questions are then twofold:

Have people done this/has it worked? I figured this would give my waveserpents the ability to hold things like firedragons or cc wraithlords that would want to get close to an enemy, while the Venoms and warriors stay further back with splinter cannons. I’ve heard Venoms are nasty, would they work in an Eldar army featuring waveserpents, warwalkers and possibly a wraithknight?

This may belong in the rules section, but since it’s related I’m just including it here. I’m a little unclear on how Flickerfields work on Vemons with saves. As I understand it, they’d have both a 5+ invul AND a 5+ cover save, yes?

Any help/advice/answers are appreciated. Thanks!

Can't help on the tactics portion, but in regards to the invuln and cover save, you would have a 5+ invuln standard, 5+ cover if you move, 4+ cover if you turbo-boost. This means against weapons that do not ignore cover you would use either the 4+ Jink (if you have it), or the 5+ invuln/cover save. If the weapon ignores cover then you would use your 5+ invuln.

Thanks for the response, that answers one of my questions haha.

Venoms work very well in that kind of army list because they bring long range anti infantry when wave serpents/War walkers want to target transports more, fast scoring bodies. Don't expect them to last under fire, but if they are shooting at these then they are letting your serpents do their job. That's a win. They also give access to the Ravager, who brings great AV for 100pts and tackles things strength 6 can't bring down. Alternatively go for pure infantry rape-a-rade and take a razorwing with dissies and flickerfields and laugh as you remove entire units from the bored when this beast is guided.

Venoms also have a nice trick that they can hide almost completely behind a Serpent. The best HQ is a Cheap Haemonculus with Liquefier/Hex rifle (If your feeling fancy) to hang with a back field camper unit like guardians or dark reapers. Remember he grants his unit night vision, that works well with Dark reapers.

The classic ally detachment will be

Hamon with Hex/Liq. 60pts

2x5 warriors in venoms with duel cannons. 220

Ravager. 105pts

This is also agree place to start making a whole new DE army. The Eldar army should have a Laughing seer or at least a single farseer to get both Guide and Prescience, which are great. Welcome to the darkside, we have cookies

It is off topic but, still on the topic of DEldar at least.

I use Dark Eldar allies first and foremost for that Beastpack.

As boss as Eldar are they have assault units that are both tough and fast. Scorpions get a lot of attacks and decent armor. Wraithblades got that T6. However, Beastpacks can -reliably- get turn 2 charges with units that have several of the following:

T5 if you sacrifice a BeastMaster in an all Fiend pack.
Like 50 wounds if the enemy doesn't have enough S6 (or 10 with it) if you use an all Flock pack.
4++ if you use all Khymerae.
Each BeastMaster is technically a character so you can throw them at challenges while you let attached ICs do some real work.
Fast and ignore difficult terrain.

It should be pretty obvious by my tone that the HQ "tax" I pay is the Baron.

More towards your point, your scoring ability with those 5 Kabalites is marginal. However they're still great as they can still pump out some more rapid fire poison shots if your Venoms get in correct ranges. Wracks might be able to get away with just 3 but they don't contribute any firepower and when (when -not- if) the Venom gets blown up that T4 ain't worth crap when their save is 6+ 5+FNP.

While I admit that the beastpack is an Amzing unit, especially when paired with a Eldar Jetseer for prescience and such buffs (Fortune + Baron =Troll!). But in the Average list they don't work well unless you make the list to work around it. For example you would really want 2 jetseers, or 1 jetseer and a laughting seer, or simply Eldrad so you have a good chance of getting the powers you want (Invisibility simply rocks). You will also want wraithknights, fire prisms and serpents over war walkers and foot guardians so as not to present easy targets.

But all things considered, the beast pack is the cheapest and best 'Death-star' point per wound and does amazing damage. The best load out is 5-8 Khymerae and 5ish razorwings for a good strength 6 protection and great damage. This is lead by the Baron and preferably a Jetseer. Its relatively cheap, rarely pushing 400pts, but is very fast and killy. Consider them if you want an assault element, you wont get a much better one then this.

I think the addition of Dark Eldar to Eldar could be very valuable, particularly due to the Baron. Serpent Eldar struggle against their mirror match. The +1 to go first could be a substantial boon.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While I admit that the beastpack is an Amzing unit, especially when paired with a Eldar Jetseer for prescience and such buffs (Fortune + Baron =Troll!). But in the Average list they don't work well unless you make the list to work around it. For example you would really want 2 jetseers, or 1 jetseer and a laughting seer, or simply Eldrad so you have a good chance of getting the powers you want (Invisibility simply rocks). You will also want wraithknights, fire prisms and serpents over war walkers and foot guardians so as not to present easy targets.

But all things considered, the beast pack is the cheapest and best 'Death-star' point per wound and does amazing damage. The best load out is 5-8 Khymerae and 5ish razorwings for a good strength 6 protection and great damage. This is lead by the Baron and preferably a Jetseer. Its relatively cheap, rarely pushing 400pts, but is very fast and killy. Consider them if you want an assault element, you wont get a much better one then this.

the beastpack without a jetseer is amazing, adding it in just makes things silly. The baron already gives the beastpack stealth, so a warlock somewhere casting conceal makes them almost unkillable without ignores cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

The classic ally detachment will be

Hamon with Hex/Liq. 60pts

2x5 warriors in venoms with duel cannons. 220

Ravager. 105pts

Wracks are cheaper than warriors when you consider they are min squad 3, and T4FNP is pretty suriviable compared to T3 warriors.
Also with warriors you have no place to put your haemy

And you arent taking the Baron, who is one of the best HQs in the game.

 Exergy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While I admit that the beastpack is an Amzing unit, especially when paired with a Eldar Jetseer for prescience and such buffs (Fortune + Baron =Troll!). But in the Average list they don't work well unless you make the list to work around it. For example you would really want 2 jetseers, or 1 jetseer and a laughting seer, or simply Eldrad so you have a good chance of getting the powers you want (Invisibility simply rocks). You will also want wraithknights, fire prisms and serpents over war walkers and foot guardians so as not to present easy targets.

But all things considered, the beast pack is the cheapest and best 'Death-star' point per wound and does amazing damage. The best load out is 5-8 Khymerae and 5ish razorwings for a good strength 6 protection and great damage. This is lead by the Baron and preferably a Jetseer. Its relatively cheap, rarely pushing 400pts, but is very fast and killy. Consider them if you want an assault element, you wont get a much better one then this.

the beastpack without a jetseer is amazing, adding it in just makes things silly. The baron already gives the beastpack stealth, so a warlock somewhere casting conceal makes them almost unkillable without ignores cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

The classic ally detachment will be

Hamon with Hex/Liq. 60pts

2x5 warriors in venoms with duel cannons. 220

Ravager. 105pts

Wracks are cheaper than warriors when you consider they are min squad 3, and T4FNP is pretty suriviable compared to T3 warriors.
Also with warriors you have no place to put your haemy

And you arent taking the Baron, who is one of the best HQs in the game.

Warlocks cannot join beasts to give conceal, but spirit seers can.

I use eldar with DE allies including the baron and beasts. One batrep is here, two more will be added once I write them.
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2013/09/hyv3mynds-eldar-dark-eldar-september.html?m=0

I went 2-1 at this event first time using the list. With a little more practice I think it will be potent. The beasts plus farseer, baron, and spiritseer have endless combo potential.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While I admit that the beastpack is an Amzing unit, especially when paired with a Eldar Jetseer for prescience and such buffs (Fortune + Baron =Troll!). But in the Average list they don't work well unless you make the list to work around it. For example you would really want 2 jetseers, or 1 jetseer and a laughting seer, or simply Eldrad so you have a good chance of getting the powers you want (Invisibility simply rocks). You will also want wraithknights, fire prisms and serpents over war walkers and foot guardians so as not to present easy targets.

But all things considered, the beast pack is the cheapest and best 'Death-star' point per wound and does amazing damage. The best load out is 5-8 Khymerae and 5ish razorwings for a good strength 6 protection and great damage. This is lead by the Baron and preferably a Jetseer. Its relatively cheap, rarely pushing 400pts, but is very fast and killy. Consider them if you want an assault element, you wont get a much better one then this.

the beastpack without a jetseer is amazing, adding it in just makes things silly. The baron already gives the beastpack stealth, so a warlock somewhere casting conceal makes them almost unkillable without ignores cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

The classic ally detachment will be

Hamon with Hex/Liq. 60pts

2x5 warriors in venoms with duel cannons. 220

Ravager. 105pts

Wracks are cheaper than warriors when you consider they are min squad 3, and T4FNP is pretty suriviable compared to T3 warriors.
Also with warriors you have no place to put your haemy

And you arent taking the Baron, who is one of the best HQs in the game.

Warlocks cannot join beasts to give conceal, but spirit seers can.

I use eldar with DE allies including the baron and beasts. One batrep is here, two more will be added once I write them.
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2013/09/hyv3mynds-eldar-dark-eldar-september.html?m=0

I went 2-1 at this event first time using the list. With a little more practice I think it will be potent. The beasts plus farseer, baron, and spiritseer have endless combo potential.

can you not use the shrounding power on a unit that is nearby or does it have to be the warlocks unit?

Conceal is self shrouding for a psyker. If one model has shrouding the unit does, so basically only for the seer's unit. And warlocks have a very small list of units they can join.

I like the spiritseer with beasts. A lot of their statline buffs and debuffs really benefit a melee unit. With the baron, farseer, and spiritseer with shard of anaris, beasts have stealth, shrouding, fearless, hit and run, offensive grenades, defensive grenades, and reroll all misses with a couple primaris powers. Really fun unit.

Thanks for all the great advice. I hadn’t even thought of a lot of these possibilities such as Ravagers and Beast Packs. I also know this sounds like a major brainfart, but I totally forgot about having to ally in an HQ for the allied detachment. That kind of ruins my Venom plan to an extent, since I can’t have 5 warriors + an HQ model in a single Venom. Oops. Any thoughts around this?

Laertes' Folly wrote:
Thanks for all the great advice. I hadn’t even thought of a lot of these possibilities such as Ravagers and Beast Packs. I also know this sounds like a major brainfart, but I totally forgot about having to ally in an HQ for the allied detachment. That kind of ruins my Venom plan to an extent, since I can’t have 5 warriors + an HQ model in a single Venom. Oops. Any thoughts around this?

Haemi + 3-4 wracks.

Haemis make Wracks troops

Or take the Baron, who doesn't need to go in a Venom because he can either simply hide and you can make use of his +1 to go first, or you can put him in an eldar unit (Seer council makes good use of him but is extremely expensive, Normal Guardian jetbikes make good use of his stealth bonus, but I think the best is putting him in a back field guardian unit because the more bodies that benefit from stealth, Hit'n'Run and grenades the better). As an Alpha strike army, the +1 to go first is a massive bonus, all the other stuff is just extra.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Or take the Baron, who doesn't need to go in a Venom because he can either simply hide and you can make use of his +1 to go first, or you can put him in an eldar unit (Seer council makes good use of him but is extremely expensive, Normal Guardian jetbikes make good use of his stealth bonus, but I think the best is putting him in a back field guardian unit because the more bodies that benefit from stealth, Hit'n'Run and grenades the better). As an Alpha strike army, the +1 to go first is a massive bonus, all the other stuff is just extra.

a 100 point character who gives +1 to go first, has a 2++ save, and stealth is great.

that he has tank killing strength, night vision, assault and defensive grenades to the unit and hit and run just adds so much.

Baron

2x Warriors with Blaster in Venom

Blaster TrueBorn in Venom

Ravager

Is a pretty cheap and effective allied force. Brings alot of anti Infantry and Anti MC firepower. Wave Serpents no longer fear those Wraithknights as you can drop one a turn with only the DE component of your army. Don't forget Guide and Precience either.


A Beastpack can be absolutely nasty as well, especially with a Jetseer in there.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The best HQ is a Cheap Haemonculus with Liquefier/Hex rifle (If your feeling fancy) to hang with a back field camper unit like guardians or dark reapers. Remember he grants his unit night vision, that works well with Dark reapers.

A Dark Reaper Exarch can take Night Vision for 5 points. Minor detail.

That said, a Hexrifle Haemie is still a good cheap HQ choice, it's the one I use when I'm running my own DE detachment. He usually hangs out with Rangers (if they didn't Infiltrate) or hides somewhere (at which point I invariably forget about him) and plinks (invariably failing to wound).

 Magc8Ball wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The best HQ is a Cheap Haemonculus with Liquefier/Hex rifle (If your feeling fancy) to hang with a back field camper unit like guardians or dark reapers. Remember he grants his unit night vision, that works well with Dark reapers.

A Dark Reaper Exarch can take Night Vision for 5 points. Minor detail.

That said, a Hexrifle Haemie is still a good cheap HQ choice, it's the one I use when I'm running my own DE detachment. He usually hangs out with Rangers (if they didn't Infiltrate) or hides somewhere (at which point I invariably forget about him) and plinks (invariably failing to wound).

I would rather just give him shattershard.

Yes it is one use only and has a really short range but remove from play is just so good. An opponenet will keep expensive nasties away from the haemi or will learn to next game when half of his expensive unit is vaporized.