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So. Which one is better?

Dakka jets are hard to hit. Duh. They have strafing run, which makes them very efficient at taking out lightly armored infantry. (str 6 ap 4). They can also take the option of fighta ace which also allows for them to be very effective anti air units. And even with out this, declaring a skyfire allows them to at least be BS 2 when shooting at other fliers.(I think) They also have a max shot threshold at 18 (if you declare a WAAAGH ) But normally they are going 9 twin linked shots.

Lootas- Lack a (good) save, unless you take an ADL. Their shots are unpredictable (D3 shots per turn which means that if you have 9 lootas they are going to have 9 to 27 shots per turn, with an average of 18) and they lack mobility. But they are still effective anti-infantry. (str 7 ap 4) And, with that higher strength they can glance almost everything on the board (besides arm 14)

In comparison to the dakkajet, lootas are less predictable. They have a less chance to hit, against both infantry/tanks as well as fliers. But their added strength allows them to take out higher armored vehicles, with a greater chance to glance them to death. They also have the option of taking 15 in their unit, which gives them the possibility of many more shots than a dakka jet (but if we were being fair, we'd only allow them to take as many points as a dakka jet costs) ((which means only around 8-9 lootas)) . But a dakka jet is strength 6 which means that they are wounding infantry (with toughness 4) on a 2 up, just like lootas, and have the possible mobility to get in around behind the heavily armored fronts of tanks and to shoot at their rear armor.

I'm just curious on Dakka's opinion. Which is better?

Cheers!
~Sir William

Lootas can not be intercepted.
Lootas can be buffed with cover saves from buildings.
Lootas are on the board and firing from the first turn.
Lootas are out of range of most other small arms fire on the board (if you deploy them somewhere sensible).
Lootas fit in your carry case better and can be picked up cheap from ebay!

The only things a dakka jet really has going for it is being able to get other flyers better but at S6 you need to sneak up behind them; and being harder to hit with shooting, but then everything better than a lasgun can glance them.

My reaction would be lootas all the way, the only complication is if you use other elites and don't have a spot for lootas.

I posted this consensus not too long ago and the consensus pretty much came to Lootas are better, for reasons stated above.

That's not true. The consensus ended with me disproving all the made-up arguments by showing that dakkajets are more survivable than lootaz and only slightly inferior in terms of firepower against hard targets. Against infantry, the dakkajet is even better than lootaz.

In case you forgot, here is your thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547449.page

The real answer is both. Dakkajets can do some things better than lootaz, lootaz do other things better than dakkajets. Two units and one dakkajet are always going to be superior to three units of lootaz, just because you've got more options.

 Jasper wrote:
Lootas can not be intercepted.
Lootas can be buffed with cover saves from buildings.
Lootas are on the board and firing from the first turn.
Lootas are out of range of most other small arms fire on the board (if you deploy them somewhere sensible).
Lootas fit in your carry case better and can be picked up cheap from ebay!

Dakkajets can not be assaulted, hit by blasts or templates
Dakkajets are hard to hit (roughly translates to at least 4+ cover) and may jink on top of that
Dakkajets get two turns of shooting in one shooting phase once per game
Dakkajets ignore 97.2% of all smalls arms fire even if it is in range
There are as many cheap dakkajets on ebay as cheap lootaz. None.

Did I mention dakka jets can be intercepted. A good dose of S7 quad gun has a good chance to take one out before it get to see any action. If they had AV12 like some other fliers then they would be much better. With a decent planned ork force for a few points more they could have IG allies and some AV12 valkarie or vendetta action (subject to emeny and requirement for transport).

Dakka Jets take up bike slots in the FOA chart.
They are awkward to manouver; okay it does get better with practice but you're not always able to point at a ripe target - particularly if against small elite armies.
Dakkajets are progressively getting easier to hit as the new codexes crawl out.
Orks being assaultable or being able to asault is not a bad thing.
AP4 against infantry is generally naff, lootas win on the +1S for tough cookies and light tanks / dreadnoughts.

Don't get me wrong I would love the dakkajet to be a little more awesome, even if the points did rise. But the low armour value really lets it down.

Lootas, all the way.

The Dakkajet is way too expensive for what it brings to the table (usually, 13,5 S6 hits... per game).

The equivalent Lootas (9) will get 12 S7 hits in 2 turns... And if they're lucky or you depoyed them well, they'll get to fire more than twice.

The only good thing with the Dakkajet is its ability to hit other flyers on 4+ instead of 6+.

 Jidmah wrote:
Two units and one dakkajet are always going to be superior to three units of lootaz

I beg to differ. One dakkajet is Interception-bait. If you want Dakkajets to perform well, you need two of them and some way to have them come at the same time (Com-link Aegis).

In general I'd say lootas but without cover they're doomed. I've been taking both lately, lootas take out vehicles and dakkajets for troops while my bikernobz surge up for the glory kill.
My usual luck with them keeps happening, they die insanely easily. However I've noticed that if I don't rely on them alone they perform way better.

Lootas tend to draw more attention, and typically require the big guns that they'd rather shoot at the dakkajets with. Dakkajets last a little longer that way.

Also more than 20 lootas always have space issues. Sometimes even just 20. Dakkajets don't have that issue so before you fully load those 2 units or add a 3rd, get some wings!

Nobz are better




In all seriousness I have 12 Lootas now and I hate them, there reputation on the internet mocks me in every game that I bring them out.

-LOS problems inside ruins and outside ruins forcing me to move half and take snapshots with them.
-That moment when I need them to shoot something to hell and we roll one shot.
-That moment when I don't really have a high reward shot and we roll 3 shots.
-Any amount of incoming fire requires us to go to ground for fear that we'll take enough wounds for a Ld check. Yay more snap shots!

I'm not saying Dakkajets are good or bad, but I've had lootas since probably the 2nd time I've played this game and I'm never impressed by them.

In fact when I finish making me some battlefoam boxes I'm making some flash gitz...

NOOOOOOOO

NOT FLASH GITZ.

Much more expensive and with their puny 24" range you'll be taking a load more shots; okay you may be lucky and get some terminator busting AP now and againt(Hopefully they will tweak flash gitz in the new codex because I do like the idea of them - even if its just giving the leader a big choppa or claw).

Maybe we'll get lucky with the new codex and get squadrons of dakkajets. Three of them swooping about, all arriving onthe same turn while safe in the knowledge that we still have a huge biker force moping up below.

Jasper wrote:Did I mention dakka jets can be intercepted. A good dose of S7 quad gun has a good chance to take one out before it get to see any action. If they had AV12 like some other fliers then they would be much better. With a decent planned ork force for a few points more they could have IG allies and some AV12 valkarie or vendetta action (subject to emeny and requirement for transport).

There are two super-secret tricks to handling getting intercepted by the quad gun, not counting the super-cheesy "drop terrain in front of it":
1. Kill the guy operating it. Few people have more than one model in base contact with it. Even less people have additional models in front of the quad gun to prevent sniping the operator(s).
2. Don't fething move your dakkajet within 48" of the gun to help your opponent shoot it down. You've got 30" range, as 36" move and usually about half the table to deploy safely on, why would you fly your plane straight into the only anti-air gun they've got?

You could also just start jinking and survive with an average of one hull point left. Besides, a quad gun can also kill lootaz by just shooting it regularly.

Dakka Jets take up bike slots in the FOA chart.

You mean the slot of an overcosted unit that should only see play when fielded as troops? Lootaz take up slots for tankbustaz, if that's an argument.

They are awkward to manouver; okay it does get better with practice but you're not always able to point at a ripe target - particularly if against small elite armies.

The same small elite army can outrange your lootaz and hide behind terrain from them. If anything the dakkajet is more able to attack hard to hit targets than lootaz. You being bad at maneuvering is not an argument against the unit.

Dakkajets are progressively getting easier to hit as the new codexes crawl out.

Right, because eldar got skyfire missile that no one uses and space marines got two anti-air tanks that also no one uses plus 25 point missile launchers which really suck at killing anything besides MEQ out of cover (yay?). Oh, and they usually one per unit. Not to mention all the awesome skyfire dark angels and chaos space marines got.
The only codex with useful non-flying skyfire so far is Tau.

Orks being assaultable or being able to asault is not a bad thing.

Do you actually own any loota models? Heavy weapons can't assault after shooting. Shooting is always better than assault. Lootaz die when assaulted by anything, including tactical marines. You also discounted the entire blast/template thing. A unit of deepstriking flamers will eradicate your unit.

AP4 against infantry is generally naff, lootas win on the +1S for tough cookies and light tanks / dreadnoughts.

The dakkjet is also AP4 and is better at killing said infantry. A dakkajet is actually able to hit side and rear armor, lootaz never are.

Don't get me wrong I would love the dakkajet to be a little more awesome, even if the points did rise. But the low armour value really lets it down.

As show in the link, a dakkajet will always survive more shots than the same amount of points in lootaz, no matter how much cover they have. They need to go to ground in area terrain to be as survivable as a dakkajet, at which point the dakkajet vastly outmatches their snap-firing damage output. Also, the dakkajet only loses damage when kill, lootaz lose damage when losing wounds.
If you claim that the dakkajet dies too easily, you should absolutely not field the much more fragile lootaz.

Nym wrote:The only good thing with the Dakkajet is its ability to hit other flyers on 4+ instead of 6+.

5+, but twin-linked. A dakkajet will blow anything besides a helldrake right out of the sky on his Waagh!, even when shooting a vendetta/valkyrie or storm raven from the front.

I beg to differ. One dakkajet is Interception-bait. If you want Dakkajets to perform well, you need two of them and some way to have them come at the same time (Com-link Aegis).

Interception limits your deployment area, if you actually get shot down by interceptors, you are doing it wrong. Besides, how many interceptors are there besides Coteaz and the quad gun outside of the tau codex?

Seriously, I can't picture any of you moving your dakkajets straight on top of your opponent's intercepting skyfire. Do you also deploy your lootaz outside of cover in plain sight? Because that's on a similar level of stupid.

They perform the same roles almost identically. Most of the differences are a small set of situations. The largest differences between the two are the range the Lootas can safely be from the target and the Dakkajet's ability to score rear armor and deny cover to units by moving to open angles.

Interception limits your deployment area, if you actually get shot down by interceptors, you are doing it wrong.

Good for you if you're playing on a table full of skyscrappers. I'm not. Can't remember a single time where I could get a full LOS-block for a flyer, and we play with *loads* of LOS-blocking terrain...

 Jidmah wrote:
5+, but twin-linked.

Read Fighta Ace again, thanks. If you're not buying this upgrade, then *you're* doing it wrong.

I don't have a codex in front of me, however, I have my army that I always have had. Now, i almost look at price when having to build an army. The dakka jett is cheaper at its points value than two or three boxes of lootas at the same points.

Hi Jidmah
Plonking terrain in front of a set up ADL makes the chap/chapess in questionTFG; also the gun is quite high for shooting over somethings, so unless you have a building you can wrap around the front of the ADL the LOS aint going to get that well blocked. If someone has an inkling that this deployement tactic was going to be used then they can wrap the ADL around in a C shape and plonk the gun towards the back to make any terrain have a large stand off distance. Killing the thing shooting it is difficult for orks because the shooter is behind an ADL and probably more than a single unit; and there might possibly be a big stonking bit of terrain infront of the ADL! SIngle units are too easy to overrun.

ADL set anywhere near the centre of your deployement zone of a sensible sized board (<8' x 4 ') can intercept anything. If things are castled up near it then the dakka jet has only one place to go... Straight into the jaws of the ADL.

Add necron flyers to the list dakkajets struggle with even on a waagh, assuming they don't sneak up behind.

 Nym wrote:

Interception limits your deployment area, if you actually get shot down by interceptors, you are doing it wrong.

Good for you if you're playing on a table full of skyscrappers. I'm not. Can't remember a single time where I could get a full LOS-block for a flyer, and we play with *loads* of LOS-blocking terrain...

So, what part of the interceptor rule gives unlimited range to the weapons in question? A quadgun may not ever fire at any target over 48" distance. I wouldn't base an argument on people cheating on you with wrong rules.

 Jidmah wrote:
5+, but twin-linked.

Read Fighta Ace again, thanks. If you're not buying this upgrade, then *you're* doing it wrong.

So, if you do buy an optional upgrade which is slightly overcosted for its effect, you were still wrong. A dakkajet already is BS3 against most ground targets, you are only upgrading him against skimmers, jumpers and flyers, and I think we already established that one of those targets should better be shot by lootaz instead of dakkajets. It's something you can sink points into when you've got some to spare, but nowhere near mandatory.

Rules not withstanding (Lootas offer more bang for the buck IMO) the Dakkajet is way cooler than Lootas. So outside a high stakes tournament where points count Dakkajet every game.

M.

Yep, I'll put another vote in the "Way Cooler" box.

I've been looking at the Revell Battle Star Galactical Colonial Vyper (the original one) to convert into a daka jet but am struggling with the model being expensive to begin with and the wing span not being enough to justify using it.

 Jasper wrote:
Hi Jidmah
Plonking terrain in front of a set up ADL makes the chap/chapess in questionTFG; also the gun is quite high for shooting over somethings, so unless you have a building you can wrap around the front of the ADL the LOS aint going to get that well blocked. If someone has an inkling that this deployement tactic was going to be used then they can wrap the ADL around in a C shape and plonk the gun towards the back to make any terrain have a large stand off distance.

I specifically excluded that tactic because it's both a dick move and often not played that way. However, since your brought it up, all you need to deploy is your standard GW ruin and you create a huge black spot for the quad gun, enough to fit a mob of orks or two. You don't need to make it useless, just create an area where it can't shoot.

Killing the thing shooting it is difficult for orks because the shooter is behind an ADL and probably more than a single unit;

Many of those units don't want to move because of heavy weapons though. Also many people bring dedicated gunners with high BS just for their quad gun, if he dies it becomes a lot weaker. If you've got kannons within range (remember the quadgun is placed before any models), you could also attempt to just destroy the gun.

ADL set anywhere near the centre of your deployement zone of a sensible sized board (<8' x 4 ') can intercept anything. If things are castled up near it then the dakka jet has only one place to go... Straight into the jaws of the ADL.

That's true, but usually it is positioned in your opponent's deployment zone so they can shoot it right away, which either leaves a little space in the corners for the jet to come on safely(standard deployment) or up to half of the board (hammer and anvil deployment). Also note that a quad in the very center of the board is within charge range on turn one. Once the dakkajet is on the board, intercept doesn't do anything anymore. Also note that the very same quadgun is very likely able to shoot at least one loota unit you deployed on the table, so you wouldn't gain anything by switching the dakkajet for lootaz, as they die even faster to S7 fire than the dakkajet.

Add necron flyers to the list dakkajets struggle with even on a waagh, assuming they don't sneak up behind.

Why would you struggle with them? Even without fighta-ace, on your Waaagh! you take an average of 3.33 hullpoints of a scythe of either type, enough to make it crash, even if you don't explode it by accident. Lootaz do a lot less. If you search the "3++ is the new black"-blog for it, they've done a table of chances of the dakkajet killing any given flyer on his Waagh!. Besides the helldrake (because of 4HP and 5++) it usually has a chance of 50% or better.

A dakka jet isn't leadership 7.

Also, a Dakka Jet is one of the coolest models in the game.

Play what you would have fun playing, modeling, and painting. There is room for both in most ork army lists!

Thought necron flyers had quantum shielding on the front and sides.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, what part of the interceptor rule gives unlimited range to the weapons in question?

A table is 72"x48". A Quad-gun deployed near the middle of the board covers like 95% of the table, and 100% of the space that can be occupied by a flyer when it arrives from Reserves. An Icarus Lascannon has a 96" range, which is even worse. I'll stop here, since you just seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

 Jidmah wrote:

As show in the link, a dakkajet will always survive more shots than the same amount of points in lootaz, no matter how much cover they have.

This quote shows an important conflation. The dakkajet will most certainly not ALWAYS survive more shots than the same amount of points in lootaz. In fact, that's not even close to true.

Without looking at the math, I can tell you that the lootaz will lose firepower more often and usually more quickly than the dakkajet, but the dakkajet can also bite it on the first shot sent its way.

There is an important distinction between mean result and the full spread of probable results. There is a much greater chance to lose your dakkajet to a single shot than the squad of lootas for instance.

The dakkajet will have a higher variance in the damage it takes (often it will be nothing, but there is also a reasonable chance of a one-shot from several weapons.

Sorry if that was a bit pedantic, but its important to read what the mathhammer is really telling you, else you'll not know what the spread of possible results looks like. The mean result most certainly doesn't always happen.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ OP: (I dont play as orcs, but a frequent opponent does)I've lost a few games to good loota rolls - but I've often done well on the back of poor loota rolls. Dakkajets are also good, and there is no reason to take one over the other given different FOC.

I'd submit that both units are quite valuable and worth taking. They both have pros and cons - personally I like lootas better in the meta now.

I dont think ive ever gotten the Fighta Ace upgrade for dakkajets. Maybe if i was in a skimmer/nonAV12 flier heavy meta i might, but i never even shoot my dakkajet at fliers anyway unless its AV10 since S6 kinda needs ballsy dice to damage AV11/12.

One of the things im surprised noones mentioned is Dakkajets also pin things, lootas do not. Pinning is a severe annoyance because it kills your BS and makes you immobile for a turn. Everyone always overlooks that rule since its usually on a gun you arent shooting at nonfearless models anyway. Pin a group of Marines and that player is going to hate you, especially if its a heavy weapons unit.

I can truthfully say I've never see these two units as an either/or.

In my personal list I run two dakka jets and one full unit of lootas in a Battlewagon. The lootas always start on the table in their wagon and spend the first turn obliterating anything that might threaten the dakka jets via interceptor.

No army enjoys having two dakkajets running loose doing what they do best.

 Jasper wrote:
Thought necron flyers had quantum shielding on the front and sides.

Nope. No shield trickery for your necron flyers. I have no idea why most necron players make this mistake. I don't want to assume they are cheating and trying to get away with something. However, at the local store where I play when I'm not deployed, there is TFG who tries that every time. During tournaments, most people go to his table to ensure he doesn't cheat someone. Not that he does silly things like adding distance, just he doesn't let the other player know his codex rules.

I am ranting. I do not put you in the same catagory as that guy, just, it seems alot of cron players think those things have quantum shielding for some reason.

 Nym wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, what part of the interceptor rule gives unlimited range to the weapons in question?

A table is 72"x48". A Quad-gun deployed near the middle of the board covers like 95% of the table, and 100% of the space that can be occupied by a flyer when it arrives from Reserves. An Icarus Lascannon has a 96" range, which is even worse. I'll stop here, since you just seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

Since you didn't read my previous post, here the short version: You don't deploy quadguns in the middle of the board, therefore your argument is invalid.
A lascannon is pretty unlikely to destroy the dakkajet in one shot, so that one even more so.

I'll stop here, since you are unable to acknowledge arguments that contradict your opinion.

 Dracos wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

As show in the link, a dakkajet will always survive more shots than the same amount of points in lootaz, no matter how much cover they have.

This quote shows an important conflation. The dakkajet will most certainly not ALWAYS survive more shots than the same amount of points in lootaz. In fact, that's not even close to true.

Without looking at the math, I can tell you that the lootaz will lose firepower more often and usually more quickly than the dakkajet, but the dakkajet can also bite it on the first shot sent its way.

There is an important distinction between mean result and the full spread of probable results. There is a much greater chance to lose your dakkajet to a single shot than the squad of lootas for instance.

The dakkajet will have a higher variance in the damage it takes (often it will be nothing, but there is also a reasonable chance of a one-shot from several weapons.

Sorry if that was a bit pedantic, but its important to read what the mathhammer is really telling you, else you'll not know what the spread of possible results looks like. The mean result most certainly doesn't always happen.

I think you hinge to much on the world always - but you're right, it's hyperbole. If anyone would actually care about, I'd calculate the results of a dakkajet dying to explosion before lootaz are running away due to a failed ld10 check when they've lost five models. However, both the dakkajet and a unit of just as many lootaz are unlike enough to kill that this will be the result in most of your games, because the chance of a value near the average happening is very high. You also have into consideration that a lot of fire which can make lootaz run away have a literal 0% chance of one-hitting a dakkajet, because S4 or weaker doesn't get to roll on the damage table and certain types of weapons may not even attempt to shoot at flyers. Those random bolters you get for free with every rhino or the flamers on IG chimeras will cost you a hand full of lootaz over the course of a game, but will be hard pressed to shave 3HP off a dakkajet. However, a random lascannon aiming at a dakkajet still has a massive chance for failure (93,37%), up to a point were it isn't worth aiming there at all.

If you want a mathematical correct version of that quote: On average, it takes a lot more shots to take out a dakkjet than lootaz, assuming the lootaz deployed in a smart way. If cover is taken away from lootaz, it's not even a competition,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 martin74 wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
Thought necron flyers had quantum shielding on the front and sides.

Nope. No shield trickery for your necron flyers. I have no idea why most necron players make this mistake. I don't want to assume they are cheating and trying to get away with something. However, at the local store where I play when I'm not deployed, there is TFG who tries that every time. During tournaments, most people go to his table to ensure he doesn't cheat someone. Not that he does silly things like adding distance, just he doesn't let the other player know his codex rules.

I am ranting. I do not put you in the same catagory as that guy, just, it seems alot of cron players think those things have quantum shielding for some reason.

The reason is probably that all their other vehicles (including the walker) get it. New space marine players also sometimes assume that predators get PotMS, because the other two gunboat-vehicles also have it.

Lootas are better overall, but I'd run both in pretty much every Ork list I construct.

Thanks for putting me right on the Quantum shielding thing (lucky I have none of them) and saving me from being TFG.

I have tried both in armies with varying success. I have 35 lootas and 2 dakkajets and I think it is more matchup dependent than anything else, of course whether or not your opponent has an ADL with a gun matters as well. The math when your opponent has a skyfire gun makes the jets an unattractive option but lacking that gun they are great infantry sweepers. Lootas have that randomness as to how many shots they have (yes I have had to throw 30 shots into a rhino from time to time) but this actually makes them a bit of an anti aircraft gun in their own right because if you start throwing 30 shots in the air even as snap shots avg math says you get 5 sixes and S7 against avg av of 11 for many aircraft means 2.5 hits so likely 1.25 that cause dmg to put a flier in danger. It isn't great odds but in a way better than taking S6 shots at other aircraft. You also have to take into consideration how you can protect lootas.... parking 10 in a battlewagon that never moves can be done for about the same points as a defense line where planes you are stuck with an AV 10 that doesn't survive taking a lot of fire at it. In the end I would admit it is a preference as well as matchup dependent.

35 lootas? holy crap i usually run 20 and thats about all i need lol