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So is it possible to do a sort of leadership bomb in 40k? With Tau riptide heavy lists being a common example, people seem to be favoring lots of MCs with good survivability or flight. Rather then wasting vast amounts of fire power I'm wondering if you could use the Telepathy discipline with wraith fighters and units that cause moral or pinning checks to incapacitate these tough to kill units.

For example, in an 1800 point list of Eldar Light and Dark:

3x 5 man pathfinder units - to cause pinning
Two hemlock wraith fighters - to cause moral checks and rerolls
A Swooping hawks squad with exarch and sun rifle to blind skyfire units
Warp hunter - take out tough units
2 night spinners - more pinning checks with a chance to ID suits

3 spirit seers - Telepathy discipline, riding with DE

2 DE warrior squads with a raider that has torment grenade launchers and shadow fields- -1 leadership to units
1 trueborn with shard carbines and a raider like above

Lead by the Duke for Deep Strike and poison

You can potentially force 10 rerolled LD tests per turn. Focusing on units with the - 1 ld and under the influence of a Wraithfighter, you can expect a LD 8 unit to fail 55% of the time. The DE raiders can potentially play some games using their speed to block off escape routes and force units falling back to be destroyed.

I would go Eldar w/space marines

scouts and barrage weapons everywhere for pinning

Or blood angels for fear the darkness

I think blind is an interesting way of dealing with Tau considering the crud Initiative.

with DE as well you could have some fun times Tank shocking units out as well.

Edit: BAh how the hell did i forget about BSFs :facepalm

Spiritseers cannot ride in DE transports.

Tau crisis suits, broadsides, and riptides are immune to blind.

A few snipers, barrage, and psykers are ok but building an entire army around it is a bad idea, unless you're tailoring to play a couple set opponents.

There's enough fearless units in the game that a list like this would get shut out in a tournament setting with several bad pairings.

I really wanted to do something like that with my nids in 5th, but there is just so much immunity out there that it's almost pointless as an army concept.

I was thinking about using Slaanesh Sorcerors for sensory Deprivation, Blastmasters and Hades Autocannons for Pinning, as well as Telepathy. Probably throwing in some Slaanesh Heralds or Daemon Princes depending on which army I'd ally in.

I think I'd found a few more things that negate the charge through cover I1 problem of my Daemons. Fiends?

Potentially (I'm not sure if it would work too well) you could anchor the army with a 5+wraith axe unit with a number of spiritseers, and roll for horrify/terrify (-3 leadership, and removes fearless). That with enough rangers/shadow weavers as hemlocks might work. But it's still primarily a gimmick. If someone can figure out a solid list I would be all ears.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Spiritseers cannot ride in DE transports.

Tau crisis suits, broadsides, and riptides are immune to blind.

A few snipers, barrage, and psykers are ok but building an entire army around it is a bad idea, unless you're tailoring to play a couple set opponents.

There's enough fearless units in the game that a list like this would get shut out in a tournament setting with several bad pairings.

Tau are immune only if they take the Blacksun filter, which is an upgrade for battle suit units. Also, DE and Eldar are battle brothers, so Independent characters like the spirit seers
should be able to join the detachment units.

I could see a tough time versus Grey Knights or Demons since I cannot pin or force them off the board, but against invulnerable save based armies the monofiliment weapons are still good and I could always use Shriek on the Spirit Seers.

I think the vehicle heavy armies are what i would struggle the most with. Is there any unit that is good at both LD and vehicle attacks aside from a bunch of Reapers with starshot missiles?

Its not an upgrade for battle suits. its FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

But still taking a bunch of barrage weapons isn't all that bad. its useful for more than one occasion specifically model sniping.

I've been looking at using Psyker Battle Squads allied with Deamons of Slannesh. Have a LD2 test and take wounds = to the difference with only Invulns allowed. =D

The Keeper of Secrets and Deamon Prince are expensive though.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Spiritseers cannot ride in DE transports.

Tau crisis suits, broadsides, and riptides are immune to blind.

A few snipers, barrage, and psykers are ok but building an entire army around it is a bad idea, unless you're tailoring to play a couple set opponents.

There's enough fearless units in the game that a list like this would get shut out in a tournament setting with several bad pairings.

That Eldar plane has Terrify automatically that just takes away the fearless. I'd be worried more about Daemons.

It's quirky and I'd rather take a list that has an answer for everything, but there are combos out there if you choose to use them.

Like I said, I'd look to ally with Blood Angels for Fear the Darkness. Combined with sniper scout troops and serpent shields (pinning) and covering a good chunk of the board with their ability to force leadership rerolls, you'd do a lot to a conventional force.

However, if you're not careful, you'll hedge yourself into a position where you're not able to deal with things like fully meched lists or daemon lists who can't run away. You still screw psykers, but what you build your list around won't work all of the time.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Spiritseers cannot ride in DE transports.

Tau crisis suits, broadsides, and riptides are immune to blind.

A few snipers, barrage, and psykers are ok but building an entire army around it is a bad idea, unless you're tailoring to play a couple set opponents.

There's enough fearless units in the game that a list like this would get shut out in a tournament setting with several bad pairings.

That Eldar plane has Terrify automatically that just takes away the fearless. I'd be worried more about Daemons.

It's quirky and I'd rather take a list that has an answer for everything, but there are combos out there if you choose to use them.

Like I said, I'd look to ally with Blood Angels for Fear the Darkness. Combined with sniper scout troops and serpent shields (pinning) and covering a good chunk of the board with their ability to force leadership rerolls, you'd do a lot to a conventional force.

However, if you're not careful, you'll hedge yourself into a position where you're not able to deal with things like fully meched lists or daemon lists who can't run away. You still screw psykers, but what you build your list around won't work all of the time.

The eldar plane with terrify cannot ever use it on turn 1 or 2, and less than a 66% chance to get it off turn 3.

You can do it and the best way to do so is with the Seer Council. Against any non-ATSKNF unit, it is deadly. Warlocks go for the -3 LD powers. Farseers (take 2) go for Terrify. It's a devastating combo to most non-marine armies with the exception of tyranids (due to Shadows) unless you can cast it outside of Shadows range.

As a matter of fact, I believe the Eldar/Deldar seer council alliance is one of the most devastating eldar builds around. It'll certainly f*ck up mechdar and most tau builds.

 jy2 wrote:
You can do it and the best way to do so is with the Seer Council. Against any non-ATSKNF unit, it is deadly. Warlocks go for the -3 LD powers. Farseers (take 2) go for Terrify. It's a devastating combo to most non-marine armies with the exception of tyranids (due to Shadows) unless you can cast it outside of Shadows range.

As a matter of fact, I believe the Eldar/Deldar seer council alliance is one of the most devastating eldar builds around. It'll certainly f*ck up mechdar and most tau builds.

Its a powerful build, but I don't think its going to do that well against Tau rolling on Telepathy. The issue is that against Tau you need Fortune, as Invis/Conceal doesn't really help much against them (and Tau could chew through 10 wounds of 2+ cover save anyway). Its a list I've been considering running (mostly as its fairly low model count) and I was thinking that against Tau you go heavy on Fate, anything you catch in assault should be losing/dying horribly anyway and shouldn't need Terrify to crack. You only need Terrify against Fearless armies imo, but luckily most Fearless armies tend to be more assault based anyway which means you shouldn't need Invis or Fortune as badly. Against both Mechdar and Tau you have serious issues if you go second as well, Tau you might be able to hide on the back edge, but against Mechdar you have to be completely out of LOS or you lose the Council (and probably the game) Turn 1.

The best part would be if you could pin said unit, charge it, and then use it's low leadership to break and sweep it.

Mortars!
Hide out of sight and annoy your enemy!
Especially with PSB and their LD modifying ability.

My buddy ran a fear of the darkness list at a local 1250 tourney. He had two libby dreads, a libby in a drop pod and Mephiston, plus one or two more dreads in drop pods and two small assault squads in pods, with sniper scouts starting on the board. His goal was to run riptides off the table (another player was running three at 1250), and had the second player not made like a dozen deny the witch rolls, the game might have gone differently. I played against him with my SoB w/Coteaz and some henchmen, he ran two squads of girls off the board pretty easily. If only they had ATSKNF...

Powerguy wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
You can do it and the best way to do so is with the Seer Council. Against any non-ATSKNF unit, it is deadly. Warlocks go for the -3 LD powers. Farseers (take 2) go for Terrify. It's a devastating combo to most non-marine armies with the exception of tyranids (due to Shadows) unless you can cast it outside of Shadows range.

As a matter of fact, I believe the Eldar/Deldar seer council alliance is one of the most devastating eldar builds around. It'll certainly f*ck up mechdar and most tau builds.

Its a powerful build, but I don't think its going to do that well against Tau rolling on Telepathy. The issue is that against Tau you need Fortune, as Invis/Conceal doesn't really help much against them (and Tau could chew through 10 wounds of 2+ cover save anyway). Its a list I've been considering running (mostly as its fairly low model count) and I was thinking that against Tau you go heavy on Fate, anything you catch in assault should be losing/dying horribly anyway and shouldn't need Terrify to crack. You only need Terrify against Fearless armies imo, but luckily most Fearless armies tend to be more assault based anyway which means you shouldn't need Invis or Fortune as badly. Against both Mechdar and Tau you have serious issues if you go second as well, Tau you might be able to hide on the back edge, but against Mechdar you have to be completely out of LOS or you lose the Council (and probably the game) Turn 1.

You don't really need to roll on Telepathy. With 2 Lvl 3 farseers, you actually have decent chance of getting Fortune and even if you don't, it's not all that bad. Don't forget that the seer council will get both 2+ cover and 2+ armor, both re-rollable with Fortune. Sure, ignore their cover...you still need to get through their 2+ saves. And at least 2/3 of the time (probably more), it will be with Fortune. More importantly, Tau is only going to get 1 turn of shooting before they are locked in combat with the seer council. Terrify is not all that important when the seer council can cumulatively lower your LD by -3 for each application of Horrify.

Yeah I realise that, although if you don't roll Fortune imo you are in serious trouble - I would back a good Tau list to get through 10 wounds of 2+ saves in a single round (certainly if you a getting up close to ensure a turn 2 charge). Your first post kinda suggested that taking Telepathy was the way to go against everything that's all. Also locally we play that Horrify/Maledictions don't stack (no point arguing here, its been discussed to death in YMDC) but really it doesn't make that much difference - you are aiming to break things in assault (so you don't get stranded and use all the movement you can) from Ld10 winning combat by a couple + the -3Ld is plenty.

I've been considering swapping out one of the Farseers for Eldrad actually. He gives you an extra roll to get Fortune/Terrify (whichever is more important for that game) which is more reliable since its 4 rolls from 1 guy. He also lets you re-deploy the Council which is very helpful for a list that tends to want to go first (to get all the buffs up) and he has a nice reliable AP3 Force Weapon. Obviously he slows the Council down a bit (he does have Fleet now which is nice), but you already have to daisy chain a bit when the Baron is in the unit so its not that bad.

Powerguy wrote:
Yeah I realise that, although if you don't roll Fortune imo you are in serious trouble - I would back a good Tau list to get through 10 wounds of 2+ saves in a single round (certainly if you a getting up close to ensure a turn 2 charge). Your first post kinda suggested that taking Telepathy was the way to go against everything that's all. Also locally we play that Horrify/Maledictions don't stack (no point arguing here, its been discussed to death in YMDC) but really it doesn't make that much difference - you are aiming to break things in assault (so you don't get stranded and use all the movement you can) from Ld10 winning combat by a couple + the -3Ld is plenty.

I've been considering swapping out one of the Farseers for Eldrad actually. He gives you an extra roll to get Fortune/Terrify (whichever is more important for that game) which is more reliable since its 4 rolls from 1 guy. He also lets you re-deploy the Council which is very helpful for a list that tends to want to go first (to get all the buffs up) and he has a nice reliable AP3 Force Weapon. Obviously he slows the Council down a bit (he does have Fleet now which is nice), but you already have to daisy chain a bit when the Baron is in the unit so its not that bad.

Yeah, the thread is about Leadership shenanigans and the seer council can definitely do it (and pretty reliably also). However, just because it can doesn't mean it always have to or should. Against Tau, you really don't need it because there are no Fearless units. You can just break the units normally. Terrify + LD shenigans work best on fearless units (like my wraithstar, zombies, IG blob squads with fearless characters, wraithknights, etc.). Against Tau, Horrify is all you really need.

As for Fortune, it is a huge boon, but I've seen the seer council still do well without it. Or more specifically, I've been beaten by the seer council without it. Even without Fortune, it's a very good army. Yeah, Fortune definitely helps against Tau. Without it, the council is much more susceptible to tau firepower. However, 2 things you have to take into consideration: 1) terrain and 2) the rest of the eldar army. Without Fortune, you just have to play more tactically with your seer council and really make use of terrain (also be sure to have some LOS-blocking terrain on your maps). Then use the rest of your army to help alleviate the "stress" against your deathstar. The very, very good wave serpents should be picking out markerlights with their cover-ignoring shots and from a safe distance. If you're taking DE allies, make sure to give you venoms night-shields and sit out of range of his pulse rifles while you pelt him to death with your poisoned weaponry (especially good against the riptides). Remember, it's not just the seer council against the enemy. It's your entire army against the enemy.