Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've never played Dark Angels, but I've always been intrigued by the idea of a list that's just Belial, 3 land raiders, and 15-18 terminators. Is this a viable list, and if not, what are the problems with it?

Its viable in the sense that its legal.

The problems are there are no enough bodies. Its just not that hard to kill 15-18 terminators.
Its cool for fluffy play, but its not competitive.

At that point, its almost better to just throw out as many land raiders as you can. 5 rand raider crusaiders w MM and a PFG. Kill their meltas and you dont have a whole lot to fear. The inclusion of terminators just gives their S3-7 targets to shoot at.

 zephoid wrote:
At that point, its almost better to just throw out as many land raiders as you can. 5 rand raider crusaiders w MM and a PFG. Kill their meltas and you dont have a whole lot to fear. The inclusion of terminators just gives their S3-7 targets to shoot at.

Uh what kind of Deathwing army could possibly have 5 land raiders? You need to include terminators and then buy the awful venerable upgrade ontop of that.

Last time I played against a DA raider rush the game was over in 15 minutes, it's not very viable and has never been so. Even when they were cheaper the list just doesn't have enough firepower nor enough bodies to do much of anything.

You only need 1 with DW upgrade as the other would come from allies (Probably GK due to psybolts). DA get the bolter banner, which effectively doubles or quadruples the number of shots coming from each land raider, which is why this list is at all viable.

Not many armies bring the quantity of melta that 5th saw. Tau are largely relying on riptides for AT, but S8/9 isnt exactly effective vs AV 14 with 4++. Broadsides with HYMP doubly so. Only crysis suits, which are becoming rarer and rarer are any threat, and you can just obliterate them back.

Crons already struggle with high-AV. Also, that quantity of mid-strength shooting could pretty easily deal with the only good solution have: wraiths. 24 TL shots per raider *4 is throwing out 42 wounds on wraiths. Plus the assault cannon and the MM.

Eldar serpent spam.... well you just laugh at that. You can hurt them, they really cant hurt you bar a wraithknight. Even with wraithknights, they are ineffective at range due to 5s to pen and 4++. If the close to melee you have one TH/SS termy squad from the deathwing upgrade to counter-charge, and termies butcher WK. Sit the land raiders on the objectives and jump troops out your last turn. Unless you get really unlucky that matchup is favorable.

Now against guard you may have problems, but not a whole lot of other armies have good solutions to high quantities of AV14.

 zephoid wrote:
Crons already struggle with high-AV. Also, that quantity of mid-strength shooting could pretty easily deal with the only good solution have: wraiths. 24 TL shots per raider *4 is throwing out 42 wounds on wraiths. Plus the assault cannon and the MM.

What?

Considering the most basic gun in the Necron codex literally does not care how high your AV is (it still strips those hull points on a 6) and just about every unit in the codex has options to deal with high-AV, I fail to see the merit of your argument here.

The only Cron list that might struggle with high-AV is Tesla-spam, and then only if the Necron player does not bring any warscythes, Doom Scythes, or what have you.

Wraiths are actually one of the least efficient solutions for high-AV in the entire Cron codex. Granted, they are very efficient at just about everything else.

 zephoid wrote:
You only need 1 with DW upgrade as the other would come from allies (Probably GK due to psybolts). DA get the bolter banner, which effectively doubles or quadruples the number of shots coming from each land raider, which is why this list is at all viable.

Not many armies bring the quantity of melta that 5th saw. Tau are largely relaying on riptides for AT, but S8/9 isnt exactly effective vs AV 14 with 4++. Broadsides with HYMP doubly so. Only crysis suits, which are becoming rarer and rarer are any threat, and you can just obliterate them back.

Crons already struggle with high-AV. Also, that quantity of mid-strength shooting could pretty easily deal with the only good solution have: wraiths. 24 TL shots per raider *4 is throwing out 42 wounds on wraiths. Plus the assault cannon and the MM.

Eldar serpent spam.... well you just laugh at that. You can hurt them, they really cant hurt you bar a wraithknight. Even with wraithknights, they are ineffective at range due to 5s to pen and 4++. If the close to melee you have one TH/SS termy squad from the deathwing upgrade to counter-charge, and termies butcher WK. Sit the land raiders on the objectives and jump troops out your last turn. Unless you get really unlucky that matchup is favorable.

Now against guard you may have problems, but not a whole lot of other armies have good solutions to high quantities of AV14.

This sounds pretty cool! Could you give me a quick example list? I don't know the codexes well enough to work it out on my own. I'd really appreciate it.

I play DA i wouldnt do it, cost wise to much. Your going to struggle like crazy against everything you play!

ZEPHOID- Eldar would have a blast with LR's. Bright lance treats all armor above 12 as 12. Plus you termi squads in clost combat will not last long with eldar. Warp Spiders, nough said.

P.S i also play Eldar.

PrinceOfMadness wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Crons already struggle with high-AV. Also, that quantity of mid-strength shooting could pretty easily deal with the only good solution have: wraiths. 24 TL shots per raider *4 is throwing out 42 wounds on wraiths. Plus the assault cannon and the MM.

What?

Considering the most basic gun in the Necron codex literally does not care how high your AV is (it still strips those hull points on a 6) and just about every unit in the codex has options to deal with high-AV, I fail to see the merit of your argument here.

The only Cron list that might struggle with high-AV is Tesla-spam, and then only if the Necron player does not bring any warscythes, Doom Scythes, or what have you.

Wraiths are actually one of the least efficient solutions for high-AV in the entire Cron codex. Granted, they are very efficient at just about everything else.

How many warrior heavy armies have you seen lately? I thought so. Most take the min troop choices in transports. Even then you need 72 gauss shots to kill a land raider. What army can bring 72*5 gauss shots over the course of a game? Warscythes are only on small numbers of units. These are melee units. Destroyer lords are really the only ones who will be getting close to you, so simply throw your bolter shells into his wraith units and watch them crumple. Unless he has 2x wraith units with 2x D-lords, they shouldnt see combat. Even if he does, you are looking at 1 unit dead in a single turn almost guarenteed. With a little positioning you can force the other unit to be unable to assault you in return. Even if they do make combat, they need to kill a land raider to be effective. You have a 4*2/3*.42*1/2*1/2 chance of killing a land raider (PFG works in melee two... silly aint it). 7% chance for a single destroyed result. Yeah, not impressed.


As for eldar, WHO brings brightlances? Seriously, the CH and WW are the only thing in the whole army you see brightlances on. The CH has 2, the WW have 6. I will just run 6 through the math so you can see how terrible brightlances are. 6*2/3*1/3*1/2*1/3=.22 Thats 22% chance of getting a destroyed vehicle result with all 6. Yeah, not impressed there either. These are AV10 open topped vehicles remember. And they only get a 36" range. I can move 12 and fire a TL assault cannon that does more damage to you then you do to me with all 3 of you. In fact, i would send the GK land raider to do the job as it doesnt benefit from the bolter banner. S7 assault cannon now, plus S5 bolters. Just the assault cannon gets 4*8/9*2/3*2/3=1.58 hull points with 1.2 pens. Then throw in 6 TL S5 snap shots for maybe another half a HP. Then the MM too. You see, if those brightlances are the only thing you have, i will be putting everything i have into them. They dont last, land raiders do.

I suppose every meta is different. All I can say is that in my local meta, 5 Land Raiders would be destroyed by turn 3 (at the latest) without much difficulty, in spite of those PFGs.

As a side note, I've seen a lot of success in my area with using large Warrior blobs reinforced by Ghost Arks and Resurrection Orbs. A Warrior brick played properly can be a pain to dislodge from an objective.

Raider spam is for blood angles, who get them as a dedicated transport for the assault marine troops.
You can get 5 squads of 5 assault marines, each with a land raider (any flavor of raider), + a minimum HQ for 1675.

-Matt

YMMV, but a DE army at half the points would toast that list without even trying hard.

I recently ran against a similar list, minor variation in that he had a unit of bikers as well. When the DA player deployed I asked where the rest of his army was. He said that was it. I felt a little bad so kept most of my army back. It was still over by turn 3.

The main problem has already been pointed out: lack of bodies. Terminators sound really really good; but they just aren't. In 6th, objective grabbing is critical. If you have a low unit count then you can easily end up in a situation where you simply can't score.

LR's have great armor but there are plenty of things that deal with it. For example, the extra points paid for AV14 is wasted against lance weapons.

Fire dragons in wave serpent
Wraith gaurd in wave serpents
WK
WSyders
Wave serpents.

Most of that you will see all that time from an Eldar player.

Five LR's to deal with this. Even if the termis pop out they can still be tied up with cheaper units.

Does PFG also help the enemy if they are in range...

Im not by any means doubting your 40k logic. Nor am i the best player around. I just want to see what your thoughts are on this and how you would combat so many threats with such limited fire power.

Havent seen a person play DE in more than 6 months. DE are effectively dead due to 6th.

Well, the game is about objectives or KP. You have 5 land raiders and a max of 5 objectives. You have min sized troops in your LR who can pop out behind the LR and hide behind it to capture objectives. You can also contest by sitting a raider on the objective. If the enemy runs out of things to kill your raiders, they will end up losing. Therefore you prioritize the first 3 turns of killing anything that can kill your raiders, then go for objectives.

Of what you listed, only FD are threatening (especially since WG are bringing d-scythes in at least 50% of lists). The opponent will probably have ~1 FD squad, especially if running WG along side. That means you have to kill one serpent to get to the goodies inside.One 3 HP AV12 vehicle with a 4+ cover save. WS are a problem in number, but when your necessity comes down to killing one of them with 5 land raiders, you have ~35% chance with just the assault cannons. Yeah, not great, and maybe those FD get out and blow up one land raider (48% chance for 5 FD). But remember, you have 4 more. It doesnt matter if you survive the game with everything intact. All you need is ~3 raiders going by turn 6 to cap and contest the board in a normal game. If you lose two or even three, you still have the ability to win. Wont be great in tourneys that do win scaling, but if you are just going for a plain win, then land raider spam lists can work. Often time tourney lists have more problem than TAC lists too, since they specialize in killing the meta. AV14 is almost NEVER the meta anymore.

PFG helps them if they are near it when it matters. You move on your turn before shooting. Therefore they should never be within 3" of your PFG when it matters.

 zephoid wrote:
Havent seen a person play DE in more than 6 months. DE are effectively dead due to 6th.

#6 in the Nova Invitational and #5 in the Open - Eldar/DE

Fair enough, I love LR's one of my fav tanks in the game. Im all for them, Im working on A GW list and trying to fit a few in.

Thanks for the detailed reply. LR wise which would you recommend and why?

A standard sisters list should put 5 raiders down fairly reliably.

DA can bring more raiders than you.

I think that's ny point made.

 pretre wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Havent seen a person play DE in more than 6 months. DE are effectively dead due to 6th.

#6 in the Nova Invitational and #5 in the Open - Eldar/DE

and guess what they used DE for? A melee deathstar w eldar providing most of the army and all the viability. DE as a primary army is dead i should have said. You wont see more than 2 venoms in tourneys' which means his point is moot.

Is 5 raider going to win everything? Nope, not by a long shot, but with the vast reduction of their main threat, meltas, the list has a lot of ability to just dominate the field via sheer impregnability. 5 LR spam is simply there to exploit the change in the overall meta game. You essentially are making people play for min/maxing vs specific armys and playstyle.

For type, always crusader for GK or DA. Psybolts add a lot of firepower to those bolters and the bolter banner works from inside a vehicle for DA. Im less than impressed with lascannons and i find its always the MM doing the work.

 zephoid wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Havent seen a person play DE in more than 6 months. DE are effectively dead due to 6th.

#6 in the Nova Invitational and #5 in the Open - Eldar/DE

and guess what they used DE for? A melee deathstar w eldar providing most of the army and all the viability. DE as a primary army is dead i should have said. You wont see more than 2 venoms in tourneys' which means his point is moot.

Ahh, but they were played.

They may have been played, but being present as an allied contingent does nothing to support the argument that Dark Eldar are a threat to Land Raiders in 6th edition.

...which is the whole reason they were brought up in the first place.

I think the List is extremely viable.

Speaking from experience, making them venerable is the way to go. Having a PFG close, hidden behind out of line of site. And a command squad with banner and stick them in the Land Raider. Run Land raider Crusaders, a couple of Termy squads in the others.

I ran a Tourney using just 2 LRC, banner, PFG. They easily dealt and handled chaos army with 3 helldrakes, 3 land raiders, and 2 demon princes. I also used some bikes, and Azreal in a drop pod with 9 veterans. Drop those 2 units i mentioned and take more termies. Have at it. Venerable armor 14, with a 4++, is very good. Give it a shot, proxy some models and see for yourself.

 zephoid wrote:
As for eldar, WHO brings brightlances? Seriously, the CH and WW are the only thing in the whole army you see brightlances on. The CH has 2, the WW have 6. I will just run 6 through the math so you can see how terrible brightlances are. 6*2/3*1/3*1/2*1/3=.22 Thats 22% chance of getting a destroyed vehicle result with all 6. Yeah, not impressed there either. These are AV10 open topped vehicles remember. And they only get a 36" range. I can move 12 and fire a TL assault cannon that does more damage to you then you do to me with all 3 of you. In fact, i would send the GK land raider to do the job as it doesnt benefit from the bolter banner. S7 assault cannon now, plus S5 bolters. Just the assault cannon gets 4*8/9*2/3*2/3=1.58 hull points with 1.2 pens. Then throw in 6 TL S5 snap shots for maybe another half a HP. Then the MM too. You see, if those brightlances are the only thing you have, i will be putting everything i have into them. They dont last, land raiders do.

I do.
My usual list:
Avatar (with Fast Shot, Disarming Strike)
Farseer
8 Warlocks (2 with Singing Spears)
3x Guardian Squads (10 Guardian, 1 Bright Lance, Wave Serpent (Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field)
Crimson Hunter
3x War Walker (Double Lances)

That gives me 11 Bright Lances, plus a two shot Melta Gun.