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Okay, I have been reading the boards, and I am baffled as to why people don't like the Warp Talons. I have been using them since the codex came out, and they are one of my favorites, I use them almost every game. With Mark of Slaanesh to give them +1 Initiative they are killer.

Take them vs a similar unit in the SM codex, Vanguard Veterans. 10 Warp Talons with various upgrades costs 390. 10 VVs with similar wargear cost 440.
The differences are WT: +1 Init, 5++ save, Fear, 2 AC Gifts of Chaos, (worthless Warpflame Strike). VV: +1 Attack, ATSKNF, Frag/Krak Genades, Heroic Intervention (Is this useful?)

In a turn when the VV charge the WT, after Hammer of Wrath, the WT get 18 hatred/shred attacks at AP 3, plus 3 in the challenge from the AC. That means on even a turn where you attack me, I usually massacre you, and you flail with your 3 or 4 remaining guys, AND I get 5++ saves against your claws.

My group's only tactic to get rid of them is to use heavy artillery on them before they get locked in combat and they lose the opportunity.

Tell me your experiences with this unit. I'd really like to know.

Great models, decent combat ability, no grenades. Verdict = DoA.

I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

zteknon wrote:
I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

But then what do you use as Fast Attack? ...oh, I guess everyone's answer will be the Heldrake. I don't use those in my group as we don't play a lot of flyers, and they have a bad rep. I don't do them, and in return, they don't spam Wave Serpents/Riptides/WraithKnights. That's a second thought, does anyone else limit themselves like that in group play?

Two people at my FLGS are saying that there's no point in taking raptors when there's Warp Talons available. Though they'll agree that bikes are better still.

They are some of the best looking units I've painted in my army. For the points they are just not worth it at all, They need a small upgrade like a no scatter. Or maybe they can move the same turn they deep strike or make the blinding they do harder for the enemy units to fail. I wish I could play them more as they look so sweet....but every time I play them they get lit up and lit up early.

They still die to bolters and lasguns just the same, even with that handy Daemon save. They have a neat Blind rule, but they need to be so close they risk a mishap. For whatever reason they don't have grenades, so unless you have a jump pack character leading them they're gonna get smashed. They're just one of those units in the codex that are really cool in theory, but will have a hard time ever actually working on the tabletop.

 Brother SRM wrote:
They still die to bolters and lasguns just the same, even with that handy Daemon save. They have a neat Blind rule, but they need to be so close they risk a mishap. For whatever reason they don't have grenades, so unless you have a jump pack character leading them they're gonna get smashed. They're just one of those units in the codex that are really cool in theory, but will have a hard time ever actually working on the tabletop.

Actually, because assault grenades are a per-model functionality, a grenade-equipped IC still doesn't help. When your 30ppm combat MEQ can't charge people in a crater and win, you have issues.
Also, they can't even get access to AP2 attacks, so there will always be some targets they can only slap with wet noodles.

No grenades + stupid "assault in a straight line" or "if even one model touches a rock you go last etc" + do nothing on turn they arrive + no protection from fat AP 3 pie plates which are everywhere + two helldrakes for the price of the unit you mentioned...

I *want* units like this to be good, but the rules just don't allow them to.

 chaosvoices wrote:

zteknon wrote:
I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

But then what do you use as Fast Attack? ...oh, I guess everyone's answer will be the Heldrake. I don't use those in my group as we don't play a lot of flyers, and they have a bad rep. I don't do them, and in return, they don't spam Wave Serpents/Riptides/WraithKnights. That's a second thought, does anyone else limit themselves like that in group play?

Bikes are great for chaos. Nurgle for T6 with a nurgle biker lord is common. Slaanesh bikers are also pretty good. Chaos Spawn are useful too. Even if you ignore heldrakes (kudos), you still have good fast attack options.

 chaosvoices wrote:

zteknon wrote:
I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

But then what do you use as Fast Attack? ...oh, I guess everyone's answer will be the Heldrake. I don't use those in my group as we don't play a lot of flyers, and they have a bad rep. I don't do them, and in return, they don't spam Wave Serpents/Riptides/WraithKnights. That's a second thought, does anyone else limit themselves like that in group play?

Generally my group goes for "no more than 1 flier each, unless otherwise prearranged".
And in APOC games "No more than 1 more Super Heavy unit than your opponent" (If Player 1 has no SH, Player 2 can only have 1).

As for WT, I can see them being very useful. The only problem is that I can only see them being useful against those shootier armies, and they tend to have Lascannon-spam or ordinance weapons.

 chaosvoices wrote:

Take them vs a similar unit in the SM codex, Vanguard Veterans. 10 Warp Talons with various upgrades costs 390. 10 VVs with similar wargear cost 440.

First: Yay! Derp-fight! Someone should get the popcorn! The worst unit of the SM codex versus the worst unit of the CSM codex!

Second: If the SM player is crazy enough to equip his VVs with all PoLC, then he deserves a bad beating from that pile of crap that is the WT. A 390 points VV squad would have 6 Storm Shields, 4 Power Mauls and 2 Power Fists for 390 points. And with those 3+ invulnerable saves, things will quickly turn awry for the WT.

The problem with Warp Talons is that out of all the parts of the CSM codex, it is our fast attack that is the best slot. Warp Talons have to contend with.

Heldrakes = no brainer.
Bikes = special weapons and a nice hiding spot for a Lord, nurgle bikers make baby jesus cry.
Spawn = excellent hiding spot for a Juggernaut or Lord due to the amount of wounds.
Raptors = can take special weapons, they also have grenades (I presume that Warp Talons, due to having lightning claws, are unable to pull the pins on grenades.)

So that is the main problem with Warp Talons, everything else in the slot is generally better than them. Which is an utter shame because they look and feel awesome.

Blinded honour guard would still murder them in one round at same points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, at same cost,15 attack and 12 walk away after two combat phases... Ouch, WarpTalons! 10 v 10, 7 walk away.

I run my w/ MoT and @ 190pts it is a point sink. Blind attack via deep strike rarely works (1/3 of the time for me). No grenades.
I find 5 Spawn w/MoN for 10 pts cheaper is a better buy.
BTW-5Spawn+MoN + Drake = 350pts.

 chaosvoices wrote:

zteknon wrote:
I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

But then what do you use as Fast Attack? ...oh, I guess everyone's answer will be the Heldrake. I don't use those in my group as we don't play a lot of flyers, and they have a bad rep. I don't do them, and in return, they don't spam Wave Serpents/Riptides/WraithKnights. That's a second thought, does anyone else limit themselves like that in group play?

Well, my "group" - consisting of a total of two people, including myself - have completely avoided flyers. Fliers? I'm not sure which one refers to things that fly and which are those paper things people leave in mailboxes or hand out.

We also tend to avoid mechanized infantry. Our lists generally are composed of a bunch of infantry squads on foot, and a few dreadnoughts and/or battle tanks as armored support or whatever.

 chaosvoices wrote:

zteknon wrote:
I love the models. But overall i find that for a serious list the points are better spent somewhere else. I usually take a few predators for the cost of the unit of warp talons and it works better for me.

But then what do you use as Fast Attack? ...oh, I guess everyone's answer will be the Heldrake. I don't use those in my group as we don't play a lot of flyers, and they have a bad rep. I don't do them, and in return, they don't spam Wave Serpents/Riptides/WraithKnights. That's a second thought, does anyone else limit themselves like that in group play?

CSM bikes are AWESOME
CSM Chaos Spawn are also great
you mentioned the heldrake

The CSM fast attack is simply packed with great units, and then there are warp talons and raptors who pay too many points for USR Fear and VotLW.

No grenades, so effective against 3+ saves, so poor against 2+ saves. They either bounce off or kill everything, then being out in the open for next turns shooting attack. WarpTalons just arent good.

Warp talons aren't very good - sure they can rip apart a SM tactical squad, but then they usually get shot to pieces. So you end up spending 300 pts to kill 150 pts ...... there are so many better things you could bring.