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So I was spreading the good word of the Big E to a couple of my buds the other day; you know, mostly of how cool it is to get shot by a commissar trying to shoot yourself, or of the excitement of spend months, years or even centuries on a Imperial Naval Frigate while trying to resist the temping whispers of the warp, or of the wonders to dedicate an entire life to the service to the IoM... well, you get the point.

The things is, the questions I got the most is are about the Spess Mehrens; it was easy getting the basic ideas of the other Races/Factions across: how the IGs and Imperial Navy operates (they have a Segmentum Command and the Departmento Munitorum to handle the logistics), the Orks eats everything and the squigs that are also technically their kins, and the Eldars got their farms somewhere, etc.

But the loyalists Speeze Merinez are perhapes the more fleshed-out faction in the game. Seeing how they are largely autonomous organizations; I couldn't answer how the Blood Ravens (Vidya Game being their first experience) operate: since the Chapter is fleet-based, how do they re-supply (no recruiting)? Sure it is entirely possible that they acquire from the planets they are supposed to "protect" (within their sector or whatnot), but are those planets even obliged to offer tribute to the chapter? Nowhere I've read suggested such tribute is within the duties of a planetary governor.

Sure, a SM chapter can just take such tributes by force (clearly most of them are arrogant knights who treat peasants as objects), but wouldn't such actions draw unnecessary attentions from the Inquisition? And wouldn't this lead to punishments from the HLoT? I mean, this is an mighty important question; if I can't explain what they eat, then everything else have no ground to stand on.

So, are there any references in any novels about this? Are there are references? Thanks in advance.

You were more correct than you knew when you mentioned the Space Marines being Knights and those under their protection being peasants. That is exactly how it works. Those people who live on worlds under the protection of a given SM Chapter owe that Chapter their lives. A tithe of the planet's goods... food, people, weapons, whatever... is the Chapter's due.

In many cases, a Space Marine Homeworld is free from its tithe to the Administratum, and instead tithes directly to the Chapter. On other worlds, this may be split, depending on the Chapter, its needs, and the world's production capabilities. So that of its tithe, 20% goes to the Administratum, the rest to the Chapter, or some similar break-down.

The vast majority of Space Marine chapters have a fixed area of responsibility. The area is more than likely dictated by the location of their homeworld. recruits and resources are drawn from this base of operation, and resupply is obviously not much of an issue (unless something bad happens to their home world).

Some Space Marine chapters are totally ship based and have no fixed area of responsibility. they may have a nominal home world, for example even though they are a ship based chapter the Imperial fists are based on Terra, and they have a pretty impressive fortress in orbit to emphasise the point. Other Chapters such as the Black Templars as far as i know, have no homeworld and are constantly on crusade. I can't see it being much of an issue in the short term, Strike cruisers and battlebarges are able to operate autonomously to a far greater degree than the Imperial Navy, and they obviously have all they need on board to repair vehicles, maintain power armour and terminator armour whilst on deployment.

Black Templars also have a fairly unique way of training their recruits, whereby a space marine teaches a recruit how to be a marine while they are on deployment (initiates and neophytes). while you could argue this was something the designers thought of to make the chapter a bit more unique, in practice it frees up the chapter from having to have a dedicated training facility on a planet somewhere since responsibility is spread between the marines themselves.

One thing i have never seen in the fluff is reference to support ships. Its obvious they have them. its obvious the navy has them. the whole Imperial Navy cannot be composed in its entirety of war ships and transports. there HAS to be a large auxiliary contingent of repair ships, resupply ships and so forth. otherwise, how do they refit and repair their fleet after a hard battle? so while the Imperial fists might have 3 battle barges and 6 Strike Cruisers (nominal strength for a codex compliant chapter) they will also logically have the same number again in support ships.

As to how they aquire resources. i can't see how it would be that much of a burden for a planet to provide some resources to a chapter as it goes by. in the same way as planets would have platforms and fuel depots to supply resources to the Navy. when a chapter comes through, and it hasn't had its teeth kicked in, all it will need is a little fuel, a little food, and maybe some spares. while it may seem like quite a burden, you have to remember for all a marine chapters vaunted strength, The imperial Navy is a far far larger organisation, and the crusading chapters needs would simply represent a tiny blip in the grand scheme of things.

You also have to consider what an honor it would be to host a Chapter for even a small amount of time. and if the governor of a planet is a corrupt chaos worshiping slimeball, he will do everything in his power to see to it that the chapter in question moves on as quickly as possible

madtankbloke wrote:
You also have to consider what an honor it would be to host a Chapter for even a small amount of time.

This is basically it. Space Marines are highly regarded as saviours of the Imperium on loyal worlds. A Planetary Governor providing supplies and recruits is roughly the equivalent of people sending care packages to the military and throwing parades on their return - they're more than happy to show their appreciation.

Yep. Apparently, a world not granted to the Astartes Chapter as its fief is at liberty to grant or withhold supplies and recruits (Black Templars fluff mentions how the Chapter was granted the right to conscript from Necromunda's population as thanks from the Governor), but I'd wager few planets would say no as it would surely be remembered by the Chapter whenever that world calls for help. That's not to say it never happens, of course, but generally Space Marines are regarded with a mixture of adoration and fear.

In cases where distrust outweighs the other considerations, conflict may occur. An example of this might be an incident with the Relictors Space Marine Chapter as mentioned in the White Dwarf article following the Armageddon 3 global campaign:

"Many Space Marine Chapters withdrew, as their lightning attack style of warfare was of less relevance in this new stage of the war. First to withdraw were the Relictors, who, with no explanation whatsoever, emerged from the jungle, boarded their Thunderhawk gunships and simply left. Imperial Navy picket ships in orbit challenged them, and a violent confrontation between supposed allies was only narrowly averted when Commander Dante ordered the picket ships to stand down and allow the Relictors' ships to rendezvous with their fleet and their Star Fort. The next time the Relictors were seen was one month later, when they arrived at the orbital shipyards of Belis Corona and demanded a complete resupply of their entire fleet. After some tense altercations with officious Departmento Munitorum bureaucrats, the Chapter's demands were acceded to and their ships resupplied. With no further explanation, the Chapter left in the direction of the Cadian Gate."

madtankbloke wrote:
so while the Imperial fists might have 3 battle barges and 6 Strike Cruisers (nominal strength for a codex compliant chapter) they will also logically have the same number again in support ships.

I was under the impression that 3 battle barges and 6 strike cruisers would be on the upper end of a chapters strength. Some chapters only have 1 battle barge and 4 strike cruisers.

A battle barge can support 3 full companies
A strike cruiser can support 1 full company
SM's are forbidden from having ships in excess of what it would be required to launch their ground forces(although many do have excess)


But yes they would obviously need support and resupply craft
these might not nessisarily have any SM on them, or they might have just 1.
The fluff for all of the SM ships is garbage, saying that they are highly automated with only a few hundred serfs and servitors onboard. A battle barge would require thousands of men to man(perhaps tens of thousands), even with automation.

Imperial warfare in 40k generally seems very "Napoleonic". It may be .. controversial to apply contemporary standards to a setting where the smallest Warp-capable ships are a kilometer in length and may well incorporate everything they need to repair themselves, have cargo holds large enough to last for years (keep in mind how Warp travel works), and generally resupply by essentially raiding Imperial worlds and sending press-gangs to steal new crew.

When the Codex says that the Space Marines may resupply at Naval bases they pass en-route to their next campaign, then that's what the writers intended. I'm sure it's not hard to come up with some groxgak excuse as to how it'd work out, given that this is a science-fiction setting that features anything from portable microwave-guns to vehicles controlled by disembodied brains.

Great, Lynata, thanks. Now I have visions of Marine ship commanders breaking out chequebooks bearing Marneus Calgar's name on them.

I alway think the SM vessels as being warships/support vessels combined, they are designed to be an independent force so they will be built to require as small as supply and logistic chain as possible.These aren't small vessels either as previously mentioned, their cargo holds will hold years and years worth of supplies whilst probably containing small repair and manufacturing capabilties
Another fleet based SM chapter is the Carcharodons, who base their fleet around the Nomad-Predation pattern, which contains as many support vessels as true warships, or it may contain ships capable of both combat and maintenance repairs. Although even these would be heavily armed given the bloodthirsty nature of said chapter. This type of fleet is used for nomadic fleets that spend decades away from imperial space.

Super Ready wrote:Great, Lynata, thanks. Now I have visions of Marine ship commanders breaking out chequebooks bearing Marneus Calgar's name on them.

In the spirit of SisterSydney's jokes:

Munitorum official: "..., twenty-four virus bombs, and eight-hundred Imperial tons of standard ration consumables. Great! If that's all, uh, Brother Mercantus ..."
Space Marine snaps his fingers, servo-skull prints out a scroll to be duly received by the dignitary.
Munitorum official: *looks at signature* "R. Guillaume? ... Hey, these cheques have expired in M34. Uh, hello? Mister Space Marine?"
- strike cruiser starts its main engines -
Munitorum official: "Help! Help! Arbites! We've been robbed!"
- nearby Arbites patrol cruiser starts engines and siren to go into pursuit. both ships appear to be moving with 3-5 kp/h, accelerating veeery slowly -

Now, now... Space Marines probably don't use a servo-skull and an auto-quill to calligraph a check.

They're the grandsons of the God-Emperor. They have an Adamantine Diamond-class credit card. It has *nine* skulls on it, and eleven aquilas.

 Super Ready wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
You also have to consider what an honor it would be to host a Chapter for even a small amount of time.

This is basically it. Space Marines are highly regarded as saviours of the Imperium on loyal worlds. A Planetary Governor providing supplies and recruits is roughly the equivalent of people sending care packages to the military and throwing parades on their return - they're more than happy to show their appreciation.

I am sure there are many worlds that highly regard them, but then those worlds that suffered at the hands of Horus and co still deeply distrust the Astartes and blame them all for the heresy, either through not knowing the difference between traitor/loyal marines or just thinking its only a matter of time before the loyalists rebel.

Yeah, I'd say "it depends". There are also segments in the Ecclesiarchy who have a huge issue with Space Marines, and those are the priests whose every word your average citizen is hanging on to. I think there's a bit of a misconception about how beloved the Astartes truly are in the wider Imperium. I would say that most probably still see them as legendary heroes, but if you'd ask me, all those incidents of Inquisitors, Cardinals and Canonesses making a move against them, Imperial Guard Colonels spitting in front of the commander of the Marines Malevolent, or Imperial Navy ships being a bit triggerhappy when it comes to challenging Marine fleets hints at a deeply seated distrust in some segments of the IoM.

Psienesis wrote:Now, now... Space Marines probably don't use a servo-skull and an auto-quill to calligraph a check.
They're the grandsons of the God-Emperor. They have an Adamantine Diamond-class credit card. It has *nine* skulls on it, and eleven aquilas.

Godwyn-pattern Boltgun - 70 manhours
Mark VII Powered Armour - 360 manhours
Hacking your way through dozens of Orks, trying to ignore that lost left arm and the blood in your left eye - PRICELESS
For Everything Else … there’s Masterofmankindcard.

It's been 10,000 years since those days. The Heresy would be little more than myth to the average Imperial citizen.

Do you see any society on Earth carrying a torch for the battle of Thermopylae these days? Hell, we only use "Remember the Alamo!" as a line for its historic significance, not because we're still butt-hurt about the actual battle.

Psienesis wrote:Do you see any society on Earth carrying a torch for the battle of Thermopylae these days?

Actually ...

And the Imperium is pretty conservative, with the Horus Heresy probably being the most important event in its common history, given that it resulted in their God-Emperor's "ascension" to the Golden Throne, spawning an entire religion focused on this act of sacrifice.

But still, I'd say that any "butthurtness" of the Imperium in M41 is less a result out of the Horus Heresy and more the general independence and exile of the Space Marines, and how they go about conducting their own affairs without much contact with the people they supposedly protect. Add to this stories of heresy in their Chapter traditions, and an Imperial Church that is fairly anal about such deviations (and whose members occasionally even doubt the genetic purity of the "abhuman" Astartes), and the Horus Heresy may become perhaps not the focus of any criticism, but a neat argument that could be thrown into the pot of distrust, together with a lot of others.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's been 10,000 years since those days. The Heresy would be little more than myth to the average Imperial citizen.

Do you see any society on Earth carrying a torch for the battle of Thermopylae these days? Hell, we only use "Remember the Alamo!" as a line for its historic significance, not because we're still butt-hurt about the actual battle.

No but there are a lot of people in the middle east still pissed at the crusades and are willing to prove it.

Theres a line in one of the HH audio dramas on how Dorn feels the astarte would never be trusted again. You also have to look at it from the civilian population who dont know chaos, Say a traitor marine raiding party came and slaughtered a load of people and buggered off, those civilians are going to be like "hey I thought those astarte were the good guys!" "aint going to trust them sods again"

The Horus Heresy was one of the most shameful events in mankind's history and I'm pretty shure that the Inquisition has taken all the necessary steps to ensure that no ordinary citizen as much as know the names Horus of Fulgrim.

As to the resupply question I think I read about how a space marine fleet resupplies from a forge world in one of the ultramarine books and IIRC they pretty much flew close to the world hooked up to a space elevator and their stores where filled up.

The Horus Heresy was one of the most shameful events in mankind's history and I'm pretty shure that the Inquisition has taken all the necessary steps to ensure that no ordinary citizen as much as know the names Horus of Fulgrim.

This is more what I mean. The Heresy and the Emperor's Ascension is, of course, preached from the pulpits of a billion Ecclesiarchal shrines across a million worlds, but much like any other story of religious significance, it has passed beyond the realm of immediate topicality and has become, perhaps, myth, parable, or legend.

The feeling I get from most GW and BL publications on the matter is that, much like people in the real world, the citizens of the Imperium are possessed of a fairly basic, though fundamental faith, but not something they consciously spend most of their time focusing on. They still go to work, school, whatever, they go to church on Sunday, they try to live a decent enough life, as the Ecclesiarchy tells them, but they are, of course, only human. This means that while the vast bulk of them are not murderers, rapists, thieves or whatever, going out and committing the Big Sins, they probably break all kinds of other, minor religious strictures.

 Exergy wrote:

A battle barge can support 3 full companies
A strike cruiser can support 1 full company

Which, considering the size of these vessels, is absurdly low.

 Psienesis wrote:
You were more correct than you knew when you mentioned the Space Marines being Knights and those under their protection being peasants. That is exactly how it works. Those people who live on worlds under the protection of a given SM Chapter owe that Chapter their lives. A tithe of the planet's goods... food, people, weapons, whatever... is the Chapter's due.

Well I doubt that all planets are obliged to support a passing Space Marine force; Much like the SM, a planetary govenor is seemed as being appointed by the Emperor himself, through proxy of the High Lords of Terra: Just as a knight has no right over the fiefs of other fellow knights, a fleet-based SM Chapter has no right to force tithe upon other Imperium subjects either.

 Lynata wrote:
...I'd wager few planets would say no as it would surely be remembered by the Chapter whenever that world calls for help. That's not to say it never happens, of course, but generally Space Marines are regarded with a mixture of adoration and fear.

Your example certainly showed the motive for a world to "re-supply" a SM chapter, but most worlds of the Imperium are riddled with bureaucracy; re-supplying on a small agri-world will probably be easier, but resourcing ammunition from Hive/Forge Worlds will likely be more difficult as there will be a lot of red tapes, this is will also happen on any outpost or supply space platform. This means that resistance will occur, and conflicts will arise between the two parties. I can't imagine a SM chapter barge into a Forge World (forgetting not it is under the Adeptus Mechanicus, another autonomous faction), and took a chapter's worth of munition and weaponry), I can only think that the chapters will have to earn favors from the Priesthood of Mars.

Clearly I'm reading too deep; the 40k universe was never that serious with it details (remember how in the Rogue Trader Rulebook, there was an Inquisitor by the name of Obiwan?), much is left open since the galaxy is large enough for anything to happen. But 40K has grown (and retconed) into a complex universe that it deserves more details in areas. There has to be a form of regularity that everything operates based around it.

It appears that the ideaof SM Chapter Organization, as of now, are poorly thought out (which might make sense given the fan version of Guilliman); it's as if a whole chapter, at least over 1000 marines in strength, was sent out without a means of survival.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Much like the SM, a planetary govenor is seemed as being appointed by the Emperor himself, through proxy of the High Lords of Terra: Just as a knight has no right over the fiefs of other fellow knights, a fleet-based SM Chapter has no right to force tithe upon other Imperium subjects either.

I disagree on this point, a planetary governor is nowhere near as powerful as a space marine chapter. SM are gene sons of the emperor, and SM chapters have an autonomy that is pretty much unheard of throughout the imperium. They don't even have to respond to requests for aid by planetary governors if they don't deem it necessary in their view of what is best for the imperium. They generally only have to answer to other chapters, the inquisition and the high lords of Terra.

It's more a matter of who reports to who. The Imperium is not a vertical level from God-Emperor down to citizen. The various branches of the Imperium are granted certain areas of influence and control, and under them fall certain Departmentos, Adepta and other such things.

Planetary Governors and Space Marines are part of two entirely separate branches of the Imperium. Neither one falls under the chain of command of the other.

 uk_crow wrote:
I disagree on this point, a planetary governor is nowhere near as powerful as a space marine chapter. SM are gene sons of the emperor, and SM chapters have an autonomy that is pretty much unheard of throughout the imperium. They don't even have to respond to requests for aid by planetary governors if they don't deem it necessary in their view of what is best for the imperium. They generally only have to answer to other chapters, the inquisition and the high lords of Terra.

In no way will I ever argue a planetary governor is more politically powerful than a Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain; that doesn't mean the governor answers to the Space Marines. Instead they run by their own accord, and they are subjected only to the Inquisition, the Adepts of Terra, and the High Lords themselves. Technically their only duties are to pay the tithe on time and to keep psykers in check by any means necessary. A governor will only be bond by his/her superiors (Inquisitors), his subjects (the nobles/officials under his command, and "his" people). They are largely independent from Imperium support, and all laws and regulations can be re-defined by them so long as not be deemed heretical. Thus in effect, a governor has the ability to stand against a Space Marine Chapter is if see fit (view them as renegade, or secret scheming against them, albeit usually to no avail)

Ahhh sorry dude i think i misunderstood you then! Although i'm sure some of the more forceful and aggressive chapters may decide to take what they want from other imperial factions with few scruples

Well, as Necromunda and Belis Corona have shown, the Marines cannot simply drop by and say "hey, give us your stuff". In the first case, the Governor granted the right of recruitment to the Black Templars as a way of saying "hey thanks for saving our asses", and in the second the Relictors were essentially stonewalled by bureaucracy until the Departmento Munitorum (to which this planet would have actually owed this part of its tithe) waved it off, probably because they knew they'd be heading to the Cadian Defence Corridor and would be needed there.

[edit] Ah, I see, it's already cleared up

uk_crow wrote:Although i'm sure some of the more forceful and aggressive chapters may decide to take what they want from other imperial factions with few scruples

Quite likely! Which might then kick off another series of consequences, of course.

Just another day in the Imperium. But in a way, this is part of what makes the setting interesting ... the lack of cooperation, the internecine rivalry, and the political games and military campaigns that result out of it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

A battle barge can support 3 full companies
A strike cruiser can support 1 full company

Which, considering the size of these vessels, is absurdly low.

yes a strike curiser oculd easily accomodate an entire chapter with all their gear easily.

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

A battle barge can support 3 full companies
A strike cruiser can support 1 full company

Which, considering the size of these vessels, is absurdly low.

yes a strike curiser oculd easily accomodate an entire chapter with all their gear easily.

Not sure it could...
Assuming numbers as given in the previous marine codex (I assume it did't change)
You're looking at over 1000 marines, their vehicles, armour, weapons, ammunition, tools to maintain all of those, the gene-seed of the chapter and all of the records of the chapter.
That's as well as the crew of the ship to start with, enough food for everyone, the munitions of the ship. Even then if they all fitted it's likely they wouldn't be able to fully deploy from the ship.
It;s not just fitting the marines, it's also supporting them.

Where's the bit about Black Templars on Necromunda? It used to be Imperial Fists.

Note that even planet based chapters don't recruit exclusively from the planet they have dominion over. The Crimson Fists have dominion over Rynn's World but recruit primarily from the feral world of Blackwater. The Raven Guard have dominion over Deliverance but they also recruit periodically from Baran.

 Exergy wrote:
SM's are forbidden from having ships in excess of what it would be required to launch their ground forces(although many do have excess)

I'm not sure that's true. From an operational standpoint they would need an excess to fulfill their duties to the Imperium. If they had no excess vessels then they would be unable to withdraw ships to repair battle damage without rendering companies undeployable.

Regarding Strike Cruiser capacity, Strike cruisers are of comparable size to a light cruiser. Andy Chamber's estimates: http://www.wolfedengames.com/battlefleetgothic/crew.htm
Put a light cruiser at 9,000-12,000 crew and a transport capacity of 3,000-6,000.

madtankbloke wrote:


One thing i have never seen in the fluff is reference to support ships. Its obvious they have them. its obvious the navy has them. the whole Imperial Navy cannot be composed in its entirety of war ships and transports. there HAS to be a large auxiliary contingent of repair ships, resupply ships and so forth. otherwise, how do they refit and repair their fleet after a hard battle? so while the Imperial fists might have 3 battle barges and 6 Strike Cruisers (nominal strength for a codex compliant chapter) they will also logically have the same number again in support ships.

Previous Imperial Armour books and also the new Space Marine codex mention Forgeships and other support vessels that are used by various Chapters - in particular the Salamanders Forgeship Chalice of Fire which is also a relic. Space bourne Chapters are indeed likely to both have thier own substantial fleet and require servicing at Friendly ports.

The Salamanders Trilogy does in fact have as a major plot device another Chapters problems of resupply leading to their raiding a Mechanicus vessel under the Salamders protection........

Meh, Imperial Armour says a lot of things that don't quite synch with the core studio's fluff ... but if those "Forgeships" are now truly mentioned in the Codex, that is an interesting addition. I wonder if this would mean the writers would now consider such ships for the Imperial Navy, too.

SerQuintus wrote:Where's the bit about Black Templars on Necromunda? It used to be Imperial Fists.

Ugh ... yeah, now that you mention it, I think it was the Fists. Yay memory!

As far as Strike Cruiser capacities are concerned, a couple of possible excuses spring to mind:
- the ship has unusually large engines, taking up additional space inside
- the ship has unusually large cargo bays to store consumables, spare parts and ammunition for extended independent campaigns
- the ship also needs to feature a motor pool large enough to house a wide variety of vehicles to deploy with the company travelling on the ship, even if in the end they may not end up being used (they decide what they need on-site)
- plus drop pod bays
- the ship does not actually carry just a single company of Marines but has room for 1 full Battle Company + elements of the Reserves and Scout Companies, which are said to regularly be attached to a Battle Company to lend support

It's still a bit fishy, but it gets more bearable. At least for me.