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If you take Tigurius they sure do!

Cheers Grendel fixed it

 BarBoBot wrote:
Ok, so not too much more expensive.

24" range and slow and purposeful makes it hard to really bring those weapons in range of a vehicle while still remaining in cover for the save though.

It would be easy for an opponent to outmaneuver yo especially if your hugging cover.

Which is why the intelligent move is to start them out somewhere your opponent wants his models to be, or maneuver during the game so they're covering something critical, like vital objectives, the relic, threaten his warlord, etc . There's no solid answer for the argument you're trying to make.

You could always bite the bullet and stick them in a landraider. Its ridiculously expensive, but it can be very effective.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah the Cents come in at [CENSORED] points more.

Try not to get the website shut down Fling, there's a reason people weren't using exact points cost

From what I understand, posting the points cost of a unit is fine as long as you don't break down the individual cost for the models and for the wargear on said model.

I'm not a big fan of grav weapons. Although I have not played against them or with them yet.

Why are you not a big fan of Grav Weapons? AP2 and bucket loads of shots. Granted they're only really worth it on relentless platforms. But 5 shots from the cannons is pretty brutal even 3 from the basic gun is gonna hurt.

Range, likely.

Also Centurions are not relentless, they just have the wording of the rule(could be an important distinction if a rule or power removes relentless).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Range, likely.

Also Centurions are not relentless, they just have the wording of the rule(could be an important distinction if a rule or power removes relentless).

That's funny, on page 172 of my Codex: Space Marines under the Centurion Assault Squad, and again on page 175 under the Centurion Devastator Squad, it says "Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful".

Cent's don't get to run, can't sweeping advance, and most importantly, can't fire Overwatch. They do, however, count as stationary models when they shoot heavy, ordnance, and salvo weapons, and can charge when they do so.

Grav weapons blow chunks, pure and simple. When shooting at a vehicle, you have to roll to hit, and you have to roll a 6 in order to do a single HP and immobilize. Against MEQ, they *might* shine, but there are other weapons in the game that are just as good and just as powerful against all targets, not select targets. In other words, a Grav weapon is awesome against 3+/2+ armies, but suck against horde armies where the extra shots should really be useful. Even against MEQ, I can't see them doing all that much for the points you have to pay. Cents are a solid "meh". They fill no role in an army that can't be filled by something else, better and for lower points.

As I've said in another thread, if I was a brand new Space Marine player with no Terminators, Predators, or Devastator Squads, I'd probably pick up three of these guys. As an already established Space Marine player, I see no reason or need for these guys in my army.

Oh, and no, they don't get an invulnerable save. Ask politely and nicely to see the rule for the model, and if your opponent refuses, well, S/He/It isn't worth playing against. Sometimes, we get really excited about a new model, especially when a new Codex drops, and we see rules that they don't actually have. Happens to everyone, and if it's a new Codex, I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt.

Tamwulf, clearly you have not used Grav weapons on centurions with Grav Amps.

They rock at killing anything with a 4+ or better save, and they chew through all vehicles (Save for flyers)

3 Centurions will drop 9 wounds (on average) that are AP2 on a 2+ save unit. Riptides, Wraithknights, terminators melt like butter. Centurions are an assassin unit, designed to counter certain units. As such they excel at that. The only issue is how to deliver them so their 24" range works, but that is a tactic thread.

But are absolutely terrible against Orks

The problem with saying Grav is great against vehicles is that it actually isn't.

Take into account its cost, short range, a really only a passable effectiveness against them, and all together its really a poor choice.

Grav weapons only do one thing cost effectively, fry stuff with 4+ or better saves. Its ability to damage vehicles is really the only thing that makes it useful in a TAC list. Otherwise it would be far too niche to be considered at all, especially since high armor saves don't really dominate the meta.

Centurions with Lascannon and Missile launcher are more cost effective and can park behind an ADL and contribute to the game starting on turn 1(Grav Centurions are realistically looking at turn 3 contributions unless the enemy delivers a perfect target right to them) which also makes them more durable.


its like saying that a GK Orbital Strike Relay is effective against vehicles. Sure, the Lance shot is super effective. But it has too great a cost and too little reliability.

Was he allied with orks and was he running around with a mad dok by any chance?

My footsloggin orks hope everyone starts bringing lots of grav guns to shoot at all 0 of my vehicles

Id argue that Cents are very good against anything with a 5+ or better save. They are also not as terrible against Orks as Ork players would have you believe. 80 per model doesn't even get you 6 marines with bolters. Bolter Marines are in general best against hordes.

12"-24" 6 Marines = 4 hits = 2 wounds
Centurion = 3.33 hits = 1.02 wounds + hurricane = 2.67 hits = 1.33 wounds total 2.35 wounds

0-12" 6 Marines = 8 hits = 4 wounds
Centurion = 1.02 wounds + Hurricane = 5.33 hits = 2.67 wounds total 3.69 wounds

So they are roughly equal with 6 bolter marines against hordes. At over half range the Cent does 0.35 more wounds at under half range the Marines do 0.31 more wounds and the Centurion is less points. So by awful against Orks people mean marginally better than boltgun marines. I know bolter Marines are not the best horde control unit in the codex but they are considered decent horde control.

Grav weapons weakness is range and the fact you need to be on a platform that can move and shoot as stationary. Grav Centurions are very good but require skill and intelligence to use, more so than obliterators.

Ah but 6 Bolter marines will Overwatch on the Orks charge (centurions can't), and probably last longer in combat.
As soon as a Centurion is charged it's pretty much out of the game.
They fulfil a roll. And fighting Orks ain't it.

I am yet to run into centurions but if I play them with my eldar army I will likely just keep them at range and star cannon or shuriken them to death.

With my CSM army (once it is up to decent size) I will either deep strike oblits into them and rapid fire the plasma guns or charge them with a daemon prince or AOBF Lord on juggernaught. No overwatch means either of those units would tear them to shreds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I thought devastator centurions has powerfists? Is that wrong?

 rohansoldier wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I thought devastator centurions has powerfists? Is that wrong?

Neither type of Centurion have powerfists. The Devastator unit is S5 AP-, and the Assault version has "Siege Drills"- S9 AP2, Melee, Armorbane, Specialist Weapon. Both have I4 and A1. Of note is that the siege drills attack at I4!

Tamwulf, clearly you have not used Grav weapons on centurions with Grav Amps.

They rock at killing anything with a 4+ or better save, and they chew through all vehicles (Save for flyers)

Grav amp on the Cents allow you to reroll wounds or the d6 on affecting vehicles. /shrug For 85 points, I can field a Aegis Defense Line with Icarious Lascannon that's TL, skyfire, and interceptor, and can shoot 96". For another 150 points, I can have five Devastators with four Lascannons standing behind that Aegis Defense Line. If I'm worried about wounds, I can get more Devastators. Or three Predators with TLLC's, or a Land Raider, or a Storm Raven... Point is, firepower wise, you can field more/better units for less points than just three Centurions. Which unit is going to be better? Depends on the opponent. Against Orks, Bugs, Tau, Eldar- not so much. Against MEQ? Eh, your points are probably better spent elsewhere. All I know is, once again, if I didn't already have Terminators, Predators, Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, and Devastators, I'd consider Centurions... but not Grav Cannon+Amp. I'd go Lascannon/ML's and the Sgt with Omniscope. And I'd park 'em behind a ADL for a cover save.

Fragile wrote:
3 Centurions will drop 9 wounds (on average) that are AP2 on a 2+ save unit. Riptides, Wraithknights, terminators melt like butter. Centurions are an assassin unit, designed to counter certain units. As such they excel at that. The only issue is how to deliver them so their 24" range works, but that is a tactic thread.

Question. What Tau/Eldar player in their right mind would even allow their Riptide/Wraithknight get that close? Even in a Land Raider, the big guys should still be able to stay out of range. Plus with all their long range fire...

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Range, likely.

Also Centurions are not relentless, they just have the wording of the rule(could be an important distinction if a rule or power removes relentless).

That's funny, on page 172 of my Codex: Space Marines under the Centurion Assault Squad, and again on page 175 under the Centurion Devastator Squad, it says "Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful".

Cent's don't get to run, can't sweeping advance, and most importantly, can't fire Overwatch. They do, however, count as stationary models when they shoot heavy, ordnance, and salvo weapons, and can charge when they do so.

Grav weapons blow chunks, pure and simple. When shooting at a vehicle, you have to roll to hit, and you have to roll a 6 in order to do a single HP and immobilize. Against MEQ, they *might* shine, but there are other weapons in the game that are just as good and just as powerful against all targets, not select targets. In other words, a Grav weapon is awesome against 3+/2+ armies, but suck against horde armies where the extra shots should really be useful. Even against MEQ, I can't see them doing all that much for the points you have to pay. Cents are a solid "meh". They fill no role in an army that can't be filled by something else, better and for lower points.

As I've said in another thread, if I was a brand new Space Marine player with no Terminators, Predators, or Devastator Squads, I'd probably pick up three of these guys. As an already established Space Marine player, I see no reason or need for these guys in my army.

Oh, and no, they don't get an invulnerable save. Ask politely and nicely to see the rule for the model, and if your opponent refuses, well, S/He/It isn't worth playing against. Sometimes, we get really excited about a new model, especially when a new Codex drops, and we see rules that they don't actually have. Happens to everyone, and if it's a new Codex, I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah when you check your codex, and the BRB special rule "slow and Purposeful" you will see that they do not have relentless; just the same wording of the rule.

which is what I said.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
3 Centurions will drop 9 wounds (on average) that are AP2 on a 2+ save unit. Riptides, Wraithknights, terminators melt like butter. Centurions are an assassin unit, designed to counter certain units. As such they excel at that. The only issue is how to deliver them so their 24" range works, but that is a tactic thread.

Question. What Tau/Eldar player in their right mind would even allow their Riptide/Wraithknight get that close? Even in a Land Raider, the big guys should still be able to stay out of range. Plus with all their long range fire...

Again, your talking tactics now. How you play the game is almost more important than what you play with.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
3 Centurions will drop 9 wounds (on average) that are AP2 on a 2+ save unit. Riptides, Wraithknights, terminators melt like butter. Centurions are an assassin unit, designed to counter certain units. As such they excel at that. The only issue is how to deliver them so their 24" range works, but that is a tactic thread.

Question. What Tau/Eldar player in their right mind would even allow their Riptide/Wraithknight get that close? Even in a Land Raider, the big guys should still be able to stay out of range. Plus with all their long range fire...

Again, your talking tactics now. How you play the game is almost more important than what you play with.

But no amount of tactical play is going to get Centurions up the field in a cost effective way.

You either have to walk, which means you'll never catch your target, or ride in a Land Raider. Which just makes the unit that much more expensive.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
3 Centurions will drop 9 wounds (on average) that are AP2 on a 2+ save unit. Riptides, Wraithknights, terminators melt like butter. Centurions are an assassin unit, designed to counter certain units. As such they excel at that. The only issue is how to deliver them so their 24" range works, but that is a tactic thread.

Question. What Tau/Eldar player in their right mind would even allow their Riptide/Wraithknight get that close? Even in a Land Raider, the big guys should still be able to stay out of range. Plus with all their long range fire...

Again, your talking tactics now. How you play the game is almost more important than what you play with.

But no amount of tactical play is going to get Centurions up the field in a cost effective way.

You either have to walk, which means you'll never catch your target, or ride in a Land Raider. Which just makes the unit that much more expensive.

Cost effective is not up for debate. And there are more options than those listed.

And what are these options praytell?

 Grey Templar wrote:
And what are these options praytell?

A Storm Raven; that you might already be taking for the gunship effectiveness.

Nobody in their right mind carries anything in a Stormraven because of Str10 AP2 hits when it blows up. And it will blow up if your opponent sees it has Centurions inside, who don't have an Invuln save to protect them from that Str10 hit which will be causing ID to them.

And its still way too expensive.

SR is a nice delivery system, zooming on, dropping off, Centurions killing whatever they need to kill. There are also other ways, you just need to not think so linearly.

Also there are easy ways to get them an invuln save (effectively).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nobody in their right mind carries anything in a Stormraven because of Str10 AP2 hits when it blows up. And it will blow up if your opponent sees it has Centurions inside, who don't have an Invuln save to protect them from that Str10 hit which will be causing ID to them.

And its still way too expensive.

If you are losing your Storm Raven the first turn it comes in, then you really have already lost the game.

Clearly your opponent has the firepower to put down any vehicle you have(and likely several) each turn; and you probably lost half your army on turn 1 and are presently losing the other half this turn 2.

How are they getting an Invuln? Are you taking Tigerius as well and hoping for Forwarning?

Well theres 1 way.. there are several more.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How are they getting an Invuln? Are you taking Tigerius as well and hoping for essentially guaranteed to get Forwarning?

ftfy.