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Bouncing more concepts off you beautiful dakkas:

Are records of the space marine legions and their tactics / organization known to 'modern' space marines? Would they have been taught anything about this period of their history? Logically, you'd think that it would work like military scholarship today, learning about armies and tactics throughout history and how the same principles could apply. However, the IoM isn't big on education or the flow of information.

I'm toying with the notion of a Legion themed chapter perhaps with some delusions of grandeur. Either because they had a kind of excessive pride in their lineage and the 'glory days' of the great crusade, or failing that, perhaps they uncovered artifacts, documents, etc that they shouldn't have and were set down that path.

I like the idea of having a ton of relic equipment, Mk III and IV armors, and heresy style terminators. Running this doomed-to-renegade chapter as CSM means I'll be able to structure the units themselves in ways more in keeping with HH legion tactics than I could with Smurfbook tactical doctrine anyway.

Thoughts?

There might be such study, particularly from a chapter of their Primarchs tactics but things are very different now in 40k than they were in 30k.

We might gain a lot from studying tactics from the 18th and 19th century, but they do no always apply to the modern battlefield.

Remember than in 30k, the enemy was almost always Xenos or then unconquered humans outside the IoM. Technology was much better and you had an entire legion to try and take on an enemy. You could land 20,000 marines on a planet all at once and totally overwhelm any defense. Now with chapters running around with 1,000 or less they might have to use different tactics.

As a result of the Horus Heresy and mankind's fear of a repetition, Space Marines have been pushed into more of a "supporting" role (also reflected in their relative independence) where their strike forces are primarily meant to become the critical element tipping the scales in conflicts where the masses of the Imperial Guard get bogged down by a fierce defense, or at risk of being overrun by a concentrated enemy assault. I think Crimson aptly described the Astartes as a "force multiplier", which is what they effectively do when blasting holes into an enemy fortification, holding a strategically important bridge for just two days longer whilst the IG focuses its efforts elsewhere, or deepstrike enemy command posts and assassinate key leaders.

It is well possible that some Chapters do not like this role and might prefer a return to the days they only know of various epic tales and legends. Perhaps most Chapters that do not adhere to the Codex Astartes have only stopped doing so in the past few millennia? We know that the Imperial Navy almost opened fire on the Imperial Fists Chapter for refusing to split its Legion, until Guillaume was able to convince Dorn to give in, and it may seem weird that the IoM would not have attempted a similar enforcement with other Chapters ... back then.

I have a feeling Astartes in M41 are more of a loose cannon than they were shortly after the Heresy, and thus more prone to deviation.

I think the problem such a Chapter will run into, if they start calling themselves a Legion and trying to go all pre-Heresy is that the remaining First Founding Chapters will roll up to slap them down, reminding them of what happened the last time things were that way.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the problem such a Chapter will run into, if they start calling themselves a Legion and trying to go all pre-Heresy is that the remaining First Founding Chapters will roll up to slap them down, reminding them of what happened the last time things were that way.

The notion was that they were going to wind up as renegades anyway.

I'll have to think on the particulars.

For a chapter destined to fall from grace - too silly, or no?

Well, once they go renegade, the problem becomes more of a logistical one than a theme one. How does this Legion, without the aid of the Ruinous Powers and the planets within the Eye support itself? Where do they get the materials to make new bolter rounds? Where do their new Marines come from? Who refuels and restocks their ships? How do they feed themselves?

The old fall-back, "raiding Imperial worlds" works well for war-band sized elements of Traitor Marines or Renegades, but much less-so for something the size of a Chapter, or larger. When you start getting into elements this size, you're looking at needing far larger supplies of materials, and thus far harder Imperial targets to hit. This means that their targets become much fewer in number, and far more easily defended by whatever Chapter(s) or other Imperial body is hunting them down.

It looks like the Ultras and Space Wolves have the capability to maintain larger numbers of marines, but outfitting a legion takes time and resources that require a significant investment.

The Astral claws had decades and a whole system filled with forgeworlds, orbital docs and the rest and would have managed it eventually, but it required them to keep the gene seed tithe because that is the one thing that cannot be manufactured easily.

And to truly be a legion, they would need the lost technology to make Spartans, Storm Birds, Volkite weapons etc. Otherwise they are just a big space marine chapter.

Durandal wrote:
It looks like the Ultras and Space Wolves have the capability to maintain larger numbers of marines, but outfitting a legion takes time and resources that require a significant investment.

The space wolves and BT are larger than chapter size. The ultras are only 1000 men.
BT dont have psyekers and SW didnt for a while.

I would say you could have a legion size chapter but couldnt have psykers or librarians.

Perhaps he was referring to the Ultras having lots of Successor Chapters, although I'd wager that a lot of people are overestimating how closely linked the Chapters still are after the passing of millennia. Although some Chapter Masters may always defer to their progenital First Founding Chapter, others may have had disagreements in the past, or even feuded. There could be feelings of isolationism or envy, etc.
Or he was referring to the Ultras' capability of maintaining a Chapter of such size, as they control no less than eight systems (Ultramar) complete with manufacturing assets and recruitment pools.

As for the Space Wolves, well, they may not have "psykers" but they have "rune priests". <imagine an Inquisitor making air quotes here>

The SW are also only about 1200 to 1500 Marines. Larger than the limit set by the Codex Astartes, but not significantly so. If you can support a thousand marines, supporting twelve hundred or fifteen hundred is not that big of a stretch, especially not when you have an entire planet with which to do so with.

What I was getting at is that the Ultras have retained all the infrastructure from their days as a Legion, but choose not to use it. They could, if they wanted, increase recruitment back to Legion levels without too much effort.

Likewise the Space Wolves in the latest codex have 12 companies, that number 150-215 members each. So they are at 2x to 2.5x chapter strength already, and Fenris supported the whole legion recruitment before, so there is also the infrastructure there as well. The limitation seems to be the issues with their gene seed.

The Minotaurs chapter seems to have an inexhaustible number of clone recruits, or at least an accelerated process to support their tactics as the enforcement arm of the High Lords.

So, the capability exists in current 40k lore.

Fenris is a Feral World that is tectonically and ecologically unstable. It has zero centers of industrial production, zero permanent cities and zero regions of permanent agriculture that are not already owned by the Space Wolves and located in/around the Fang.

The Space Wolves could not return to their Legion status of ~10K Marines without the aid of other planets. Even being amongst the smallest of Heresy-era Legions, the Space Wolves relied on the rest of the Imperium to support them. That continues to hold true. Fenris simply cannot support a Chapter that large, it simply doesn't have the population to do so while also maintaining its own society.

It's the Space Wolves. They also shouldn't be able to repel an entire Segmentum worth of Navy ships and IG, but ...

 Lynata wrote:

As for the Space Wolves, well, they may not have "psykers" but they have "rune priests". <imagine an Inquisitor making air quotes here>

agreed, but back in the day, they werent psykers so they got around the rule.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, once they go renegade, the problem becomes more of a logistical one than a theme one. How does this Legion, without the aid of the Ruinous Powers and the planets within the Eye support itself? Where do they get the materials to make new bolter rounds? Where do their new Marines come from? Who refuels and restocks their ships? How do they feed themselves?

The old fall-back, "raiding Imperial worlds" works well for war-band sized elements of Traitor Marines or Renegades, but much less-so for something the size of a Chapter, or larger. When you start getting into elements this size, you're looking at needing far larger supplies of materials, and thus far harder Imperial targets to hit. This means that their targets become much fewer in number, and far more easily defended by whatever Chapter(s) or other Imperial body is hunting them down.

If you want to you could always have them defect to the Tau and watch everyone scratch their heads in confusion.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, once they go renegade, the problem becomes more of a logistical one than a theme one. How does this Legion, without the aid of the Ruinous Powers and the planets within the Eye support itself? Where do they get the materials to make new bolter rounds? Where do their new Marines come from? Who refuels and restocks their ships? How do they feed themselves?

The old fall-back, "raiding Imperial worlds" works well for war-band sized elements of Traitor Marines or Renegades, but much less-so for something the size of a Chapter, or larger. When you start getting into elements this size, you're looking at needing far larger supplies of materials, and thus far harder Imperial targets to hit. This means that their targets become much fewer in number, and far more easily defended by whatever Chapter(s) or other Imperial body is hunting them down.

If you want to you could always have them defect to the Tau and watch everyone scratch their heads in confusion.

Now I kind of want to run Tau Marines. Paint the buggers orange and stick fire cast emblems on their shoulders.



For the greater good!

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the problem such a Chapter will run into, if they start calling themselves a Legion and trying to go all pre-Heresy is that the remaining First Founding Chapters will roll up to slap them down, reminding them of what happened the last time things were that way.

Who would know? No-one else, unless you told them, and Marine Chapters are quite secretive anyway... It's quite feasible that many chapters have well over the nominal 1k marines. Don't some of the individual BT crusades apparently number more than 1k marines?

Well as renegades I could see but as a loyal chapter more the. Likely no. I think thy being renegade like you said makes good reason but where would they come from?

AjaxBreakerofStone wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, once they go renegade, the problem becomes more of a logistical one than a theme one. How does this Legion, without the aid of the Ruinous Powers and the planets within the Eye support itself? Where do they get the materials to make new bolter rounds? Where do their new Marines come from? Who refuels and restocks their ships? How do they feed themselves?

The old fall-back, "raiding Imperial worlds" works well for war-band sized elements of Traitor Marines or Renegades, but much less-so for something the size of a Chapter, or larger. When you start getting into elements this size, you're looking at needing far larger supplies of materials, and thus far harder Imperial targets to hit. This means that their targets become much fewer in number, and far more easily defended by whatever Chapter(s) or other Imperial body is hunting them down.

If you want to you could always have them defect to the Tau and watch everyone scratch their heads in confusion.

Now I kind of want to run Tau Marines. Paint the buggers orange and stick fire cast emblems on their shoulders.



For the greater good!

Space Marines with Pulse Rifles. Think about it.

 Kain wrote:

Space Marines with Pulse Rifles. Think about it.

Bolters are better weapons - but Space marines with Plasma Guns that don't get hot would be interesting

Maybe read up on the Badab War's background? Lufgt Huron was explicitly stated to be trying to replicate the Legions of old.

Needless to say, the Imperium came down pretty hard on him (well, even harder than they already were) once they realized this.

drizzcat wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Space Marines with Pulse Rifles. Think about it.

Bolters are better weapons

Um, no.

 Crimson wrote:

drizzcat wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Space Marines with Pulse Rifles. Think about it.

Bolters are better weapons

Um, no.

No???

Only a boltguns roar counts as prayer to the Emperor.

There are all sorts of chapters that have turned renegade for a variety of reasons.

The two you might want to look into are the astral claws and soul drinkers.

Prior to the badab war, a successor chapter to the astral claws showed up, the tiger claws. They had been missing for a very long time and their home world had been destroyed. After trying to petition the IoM for a new world they ultimately were absorbed back into their parent chapter, putting the astral claws way above codex strength. Then Huron stopped submitting geneseed tithes and continued adding new marines. We don't know for sure how large the claws peaked at, but the battle reports hint that it may have been more than 10k.

The soul drinkers turned renegade against the government but continued to respond to cries for help on imperial worlds. They used this as a way to continue feeding and arming themselves. Even going so far as to turn a space hulk into their chapter base. Ultimately they were hunted to near extinction and captured by the imperial fists but the story serves as a way your chapter could become renegade and still serve the IoM until finally going full chaos.

The marines malevolent and carcharadons are others you might look at. The IoM essentially stopped providing support to MM so they scrounge battlefields for supplies. Even going so far as to raid other marine chapters. While the carcharadons are on an extended crusade - long enough that the IoM has essentially forgotten about them. They manufacturer their own weapons and raid various planets to get supplies as necessary.

Actually the Tiger's Claws(going by new retcon, not old fluff grrr) reappeared and rescued someone(Salamanders I think?) and reported for duty with Lugft's Astral Claws which they were successors of. They then sent their chapter master to Terra to appeal to the High Lord's to start rebuilding their chapter. Somehow an "accident" happened and he didnt return. The TCs joined the Astrals at this point. But on a more important note, becoming great as the legions of old was not Lugfts original goal. He and the other warden chapters were out manned and out gunned and he kept requesting more chapters to help patrol the Maelstrom and Terra refused, so he took it upon himself to start building up his forces. This occurred while the TCs were doing their thing, they only had a company or two. Lugft had something like 2500 marines just in his chapter plus the TCs and other warden chapters and they had the worlds to support them. The tithe thing simply set off alarms so the Inq sent a team in and words were said.