Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/09/30 22:39:54
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Polonius wrote: and virtually all representatives are more worried about getting outflanked in a primary than seriously challenged in the general election. The guys that lose won't lose to moderates from the opposition: they'll lose to extremists.
Excellent point. The GOP is its own worst enemy, structurally. They might be able to win the White House if they could dispense with their primaries. Just think of how they had to strong arm Ron Paul out of the running last time and even so they best they could muster was Romney, who proceeded to say half of all Americans are good-for-nothing.
No argument from me here...
I just hope they truly passed the CR to force all congress critters into the ACA exchange, then DARES Reid to remove it.
If he removes it... then, the Ads just writes themselves.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:42:24
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
I didn't say they should have tried. I said the Democrats didn't take the federal government hostage in order to pass the ACA. You said you wish politics would work differently than the way the GOP is doing things now. Well, they can. This shut down ultimatum is not the only way things work. It's the only strategy the radicalized libertarian GOP has been able to come up with in four years. And they try it every few months. And they always look bad for doing it.
whembly wrote: The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
The GOP handed the Senate an ultimatum and told the press it was a compromise. Folks like you believed them, apparently.
Apparently you believe the D's can do no wrong... apparently.
It's all fethed up dude... I'm not totally happy what the R's are doing. But, be honest... what. the. feth. are. the. democrats. doing?
Advancing their actual policy agenda. The democrats want expanded health care, and they're protecting a law that will do that.
the GOP wants to win. They might think the ACA is bad, but we know for a fact that they hate it and want to beat the president on it. American's aren't stupid. We might be fat, lazy, and ignorant, but we know a grudge when we see it. And that's what's going to sink the GOP.
This is about winning. If it was about health care, they'd have their own plan as an alternative to vote on.
They pass numerous repeal / replace laws.
As far as which teams want to win? They both do... not because of altruistic reasons, but they BOTH want to win.
They do, but one side wants to win, and as a neat side effect, get millions of people health care. The other wants to win to... I dunno, keep taxes low?
You can argue that the ACA is a lot of things, but it's also substance: it really does help people. That's the difference, and what's lost in the debate, but not with the voters: one side is still trying to help people, in a way.
Opponents beg to differ if it truly does help people.
These are some of the things that are being objected:
- Increase the deficit
- Leave 30 million Americans uninsured
- Will increase premiums
- Force Americans off their plans
- Cost millions of jobs
- Cost trillions
- Cover abortion
- Allow thousands of federal employers access to private information
- Give the IRS new powers
This isn't some scary boogyman stuff... these are real tangible issues.
There are, and I don't want to completely dismiss them. But as everybody with a brain and access to the Schoolhouse Rock episode on a bill becoming a law knows, with a democratic senate and White House it wasn't getting repealed conventionally.
So, we have one party is playing chicken to get what they want on an issue. It's legal, and valid, but that's what it is. It's an issue that's been debated constantly for four years, and there is really only one more chance to slow it down.
And we're going to see who feels stronger about their position on Obamacare. It's hardball now, and we'll see who wins.
But let's not pretend that the GOP isn't nakedly executing a political power play. When they work, they are worth it. When they don't, the losers look like opportunists.
2013/09/30 22:44:11
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
I didn't say they should have tried. I said the Democrats didn't take the federal government hostage in order to pass the ACA. You said you wish politics would work differently than the way the GOP is doing things now. Well, they can. This shut down ultimatum is not the only way things work. It's the only strategy the radicalized libertarian GOP has been able to come up with in four years. And they try it every few months. And they always look bad for doing it.
Manchu expressed what I wanted to say.
2013/09/30 22:53:00
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Didn't we used to have this conversation in 2008-2012 except it was about the Democrats. When the Republicans were the united group and the Democrats couldn't pass anything even when they controlled both chambers and the White House because the factions were hurting each other?
2013/09/30 22:53:40
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No".
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/09/30 22:54:59
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
I didn't say they should have tried. I said the Democrats didn't take the federal government hostage in order to pass the ACA. You said you wish politics would work differently than the way the GOP is doing things now. Well, they can. .
Please... enlighten me HOW they can.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:56:56
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Manchu wrote: The Republican "compromise" is meaningless. If it works this time, then why not next time? And why not every year such that the ACA is never implemented? Any honest Republican will tell you that they would go for that as long it works. It's not a compromise, it's a strategy. But it requires a threat, and it's the same one again and again -- do what we want or we'll break everything.
And it's not like the Republicans are offering anything in exchange for the repeal of Obamacare. Which is, you know, how compromise works.
Let's say you owe me money from a few years back, with the understanding that it'd be due at midnight tonight. Now, on an unrelated note, you and I are talking about me buying your chaos Demons army. Compromise would be offering something you know I want, like your near mint Realms of Chaos books, tossed into the lot, to cancel the debt. Or maybe you offer me some Juan Diaz daemomettes to get another year before you have to pay me.
What the GOP have done is tie something they want (repealing Obamacare) to a completely different negotiation (which is fine), without sweeting the pot. So, it'd be like you saying that if I don't cancel your debt, you'll not sell me the army at all. So, when I walk away from negotiations, it's because your offering a terrible deal.
The problem here is that Obamacare is a landmark legislative achievement, good or bad. the White house isn't going to horse trade with it, and the GOP knows it.
But the GOP is no more "compromising" than a child is when he asks for a candy bar after being denied McDonalds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Didn't we used to have this conversation in 2008-2012 except it was about the Democrats. When the Republicans were the united group and the Democrats couldn't pass anything even when they controlled both chambers and the White House because the factions were hurting each other?
I know we talked about the Democrats like that back in the 90s. The thing is, Democrats are used to working under the big tent and being disorganized. The post-WWII GOP is traditionally a much more unified/disciplined party, which is probably why the Tea Party take over happened so quickly in the wake of the GOP repudiation of George W. Bush and neo-conservative/compassionate conservatism. It's the Bush Curse: every time the Republicans betray a Bush they lose the White House for at least eight years! In all seriousness, the GOP is not used to being divided and they have the structures, like their primaries, to keep things uniform. That culture and those structures are liabilities now, unlike under George W. Bush, because the Tea Party has no capacity to govern. For the moderate Republicans, I think they are beginning to see that this is an existential crisis. The existence of the GOP is on the line here if they don't lead a revolution against these libertarians.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 23:01:51
Manchu wrote: The Republican "compromise" is meaningless. If it works this time, then why not next time? And why not every year such that the ACA is never implemented? Any honest Republican will tell you that they would go for that as long it works. It's not a compromise, it's a strategy. But it requires a threat, and it's the same one again and again -- do what we want or we'll break everything.
And it's not like the Republicans are offering anything in exchange for the repeal of Obamacare. Which is, you know, how compromise works.
Let's say you owe me money from a few years back, with the understanding that it'd be due at midnight tonight. Now, on an unrelated note, you and I are talking about me buying your chaos Demons army. Compromise would be offering something you know I want, like your near mint Realms of Chaos books, tossed into the lot, to cancel the debt. Or maybe you offer me some Juan Diaz daemomettes to get another year before you have to pay me.
What the GOP have done is tie something they want (repealing Obamacare) to a completely different negotiation (which is fine), without sweeting the pot. So, it'd be like you saying that if I don't cancel your debt, you'll not sell me the army at all. So, when I walk away from negotiations, it's because your offering a terrible deal.
The problem here is that Obamacare is a landmark legislative achievement, good or bad. the White house isn't going to horse trade with it, and the GOP knows it.
But the GOP is no more "compromising" than a child is when he asks for a candy bar after being denied McDonalds.
Means jack... reads to me "Obama won... it's the law of the land".
Newsflash... Republican also won the House... so, what gives? You want compromise? How 'bout... that the House holds the purse. How 'bout, the Senate actually recognize that the HOUSE can make some demands. This is how it's supposed to work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 01:19:47
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/01 01:25:40
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/10/01 01:35:46
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
whembly wrote: Newsflash... Republican also won the House... so, what gives? You want compromise? How 'bout... that the House holds the purse. How 'bout, the Senate actually recognize that the HOUSE can make some demands. This is how it's supposed to work.
Actually, how it's "supposed to work" is that if one side doesn't like a particular piece of legislation, then they actually work with the other side to make something that is acceptable to both sides. Failing this, they at least make an attempt to create a viable alternative or to evolve the current legislation into something better.
What you don't do is threaten to take your ball home so nobody else can play with it. And if the Republicans want to defund the ACA? THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT BY PASSING AN ACTUAL FETHING BUDGET!!! This Continuing Resolution bullcrap needs to stop. Maybe I'm just bitter as I will be reporting to work tomorrow and not getting paid for it until Congress DOES THEIR FETHING JOB!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 01:36:06
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2013/10/01 01:36:40
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
whembly wrote: Newsflash... Republican also won the House... so, what gives? You want compromise? How 'bout... that the House holds the purse. How 'bout, the Senate actually recognize that the HOUSE can make some demands. This is how it's supposed to work.
Actually, how it's "supposed to work" is that if one side doesn't like a particular piece of legislation, then they actually work with the other side to make something that is acceptable to both sides. Failing this, they at least make an attempt to create a viable alternative or to evolve the current legislation into something better.
What you don't do is threaten to take your ball home so nobody else can play with it. And if the Republicans want to defund the ACA? THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT BY PASSING AN ACTUAL FETHING BUDGET!!! This Continuing Resolution bullcrap needs to stop. Maybe I'm just bitter as I will be reporting to work tomorrow and not getting paid for it until Congress DOES THEIR FETHING JOB!
The other side did bad things once so vote republican
Godforge custom 3d printing / professional level casting masters and design:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GodForge
2013/10/01 01:38:20
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Jihadin wrote: I see the schoolyard scuffle is expanding
Senate just rejected this CR: Everything, I repeat, everything gets funded, but (1) the individual mandate is delayed one year to match the delay given Big Businesses, and (2) Congress and its staff, and political appointees, have to go into the Obamacare exchanges with the same subsidies based on income level as everyone else.
Yeesh... Senate D's voted to preserve Congressional special privileges and unequal treatment of individuals. O.o
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/01 01:40:55
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Jihadin wrote: I see the schoolyard scuffle is expanding
Yeah. I keep thinking how much simpler things would be if terrorists would successfully attack all three branches of Government. They might get someone competent in there, at least until the next election.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/10/01 01:42:23
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
whembly wrote: Newsflash... Republican also won the House... so, what gives? You want compromise? How 'bout... that the House holds the purse. How 'bout, the Senate actually recognize that the HOUSE can make some demands. This is how it's supposed to work.
Actually, how it's "supposed to work" is that if one side doesn't like a particular piece of legislation, then they actually work with the other side to make something that is acceptable to both sides. Failing this, they at least make an attempt to create a viable alternative or to evolve the current legislation into something better.
So... you missed the 50 odd times that the House tried to repeal/replace the ACA, eh? Such bills were DoA in Reid's Senate.
What you don't do is threaten to take your ball home so nobody else can play with it. And if the Republicans want to defund the ACA? THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT BY PASSING AN ACTUAL FETHING BUDGET!!! This Continuing Resolution bullcrap needs to stop.
Funny... they tried passing several variation of a full blown budget. Again, the Senate absolutely refused to negotiate.
Maybe I'm just bitter as I will be reporting to work tomorrow and not getting paid for it until Congress DOES THEIR FETHING JOB!
You do have my sympathy... whenever these squabbles happen, it's the little guy (meant affectionally) gets stomped.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 01:44:00
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/01 01:47:00
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Actually, how it's "supposed to work" is that if one side doesn't like a particular piece of legislation, then they actually work with the other side to make something that is acceptable to both sides. Failing this, they at least make an attempt to create a viable alternative or to evolve the current legislation into something better.
That's how every successful Republican President has done it, including 'Saint Reagan'. However, at the moment, attempts to negotiate are the mark of the traitor and the Heretic!
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/10/01 01:48:59
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
So... you missed the 50 odd times that the House tried to repeal/replace the ACA, eh? Such bills were DoA in Reid's Senate.
Funny... they tried passing several variation of a full blown budget. Again, the Senate absolutely refused to negotiate.
The "House" did all these, or was it the Republicans that did all these? There is a difference, and until both sides of feckwads in Washington learn to work together and compromise, we'll just continue to circle the drain. Imagine if the Founding Fathers acted like this during the writing of the Constitution: we would still be under the Articles of Confederation.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2013/10/01 01:50:22
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
So... you missed the 50 odd times that the House tried to repeal/replace the ACA, eh? Such bills were DoA in Reid's Senate.
Funny... they tried passing several variation of a full blown budget. Again, the Senate absolutely refused to negotiate.
The "House" did all these, or was it the Republicans that did all these? There is a difference, and until both sides of feckwads in Washington learn to work together and compromise, we'll just continue to circle the drain. Imagine if the Founding Fathers acted like this during the writing of the Constitution: we would still be under the Articles of Confederation.
No argument from me there...
I still think the House should pass a fully funded CR and remove any existing exemptions to the ACA.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/01 01:50:52
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
So... you missed the 50 odd times that the House tried to repeal/replace the ACA, eh? Such bills were DoA in Reid's Senate.
Funny... they tried passing several variation of a full blown budget. Again, the Senate absolutely refused to negotiate.
The "House" did all these, or was it the Republicans that did all these? There is a difference, and until both sides of feckwads in Washington learn to work together and compromise, we'll just continue to circle the drain. Imagine if the Founding Fathers acted like this during the writing of the Constitution: we would still be under the Articles of Confederation.
It's going to be impossible until they change what it takes to ratify a law. As long as the 50% +1 exists it isn't going to happen.
2013/10/01 01:57:03
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
The "House" did all these, or was it the Republicans that did all these? There is a difference, and until both sides of feckwads in Washington learn to work together and compromise, we'll just continue to circle the drain. Imagine if the Founding Fathers acted like this during the writing of the Constitution: we would still be under the Articles of Confederation.
At the time, if the founding fathers felt as strongly about an issue as the Republicans supposedly do about Obamacare, they settled man to man. Usually with knives and pistols.
It tended to weed out the guys who were just grandstanding.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/10/01 01:58:22
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Republicans. Beaten a dead horse
Democrats. Stuck on a dead horse
Next election. More Tea Party reps and senators.
The victims. The general Public.
Btw if it does shutdown (government) only mission essential people are working. Also those that are not part of the budget finance but are paid by "fees" of whatever paperwork they need process.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Remember though. In today society they would be considered extremists (Founding Fathers)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 01:59:03
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/10/01 02:01:38
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Btw if it does shutdown (government) only mission essential people are working. Also those that are not part of the budget finance but are paid by "fees" of whatever paperwork they need process.
I have a question about that, I'm assuming the whole military still gets paid? Or is it only whichever battalions are ready battalions still get paid, so just those airborne units/marine units/whoever else you have who are ready to go if something comes up? I figure you may know Jihadin, since you used to be in the armed forces over there
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 02:02:17
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/10/01 02:05:17
Subject: Re:Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
Btw if it does shutdown (government) only mission essential people are working. Also those that are not part of the budget finance but are paid by "fees" of whatever paperwork they need process.
I have a question about that, I'm assuming the whole military still gets paid? Or is it only whichever battalions are ready battalions still get paid, so just those airborne units/marine units/whoever else you have who are ready to go if something comes up? I figure you may know Jihadin, since you used to be in the armed forces over there
If I'm not mistaken... active-duty would still get paid.
I'm pretty sure those in reserve/retired wouldn't.
Nobody gets paid if there is nobody working to actually print the checks.
Essential just means that you earn money and are required to show up. You might work X hours for $Y an hour, but that doesn't mean you actually get a pay check unless the person that processes your pay is also essential.
2013/10/01 02:11:47
Subject: Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
d-usa wrote: Nobody gets paid if there is nobody working to actually print the checks.
Essential just means that you earn money and are required to show up. You might work X hours for $Y an hour, but that doesn't mean you actually get a pay check unless the person that processes your pay is also essential.
Military pay is handled, processed, etc, by military personnel. We will still be getting paid. Twenty some odd shut downs in the last 40 years, we've been paid in every single one.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/10/01 02:13:23
Subject: Harry Reid, refuses to compromise... the new "Party of No"
d-usa wrote: Nobody gets paid if there is nobody working to actually print the checks.
Essential just means that you earn money and are required to show up. You might work X hours for $Y an hour, but that doesn't mean you actually get a pay check unless the person that processes your pay is also essential.
Active Duty still get's their check... my inlaw is adamant about that...
Been in military since late 70's and never NOT got paid.
EDIT: ninja'ed
EDIT #2: inlaw says it's possible that paycheck may be delayed... but, he can't remember if that really happend or how long the delay truly was.... seems to think that if there was a delay, it was very minimal.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/01 02:15:33
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/10/01 02:14:06
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
Yep, no paycheck until a CR or budget is passed. Military is guaranteed a paycheck once that happens. The rest of us might get paid if Congress approves it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 02:16:02
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks