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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 20:53:25
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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What have the Republicans actually offered in this series of CRs to call it "negotiating"?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 20:58:58
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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d-usa wrote:What have the Republicans actually offered in this series of CRs to call it "negotiating"?
They're negotiating from a technical standpoint that they have the power of the purse. (just like Tip O'Neil did in the 80's).
Latest one is thusly:
In addition to fully funding the government based on last year's levels+adj (which most cons don't like, they want more cuts)... A one-year delay of the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, and the so-called Vitter Amendment that would bar the federal government from giving subsidies to Congressional members and staff to help them buy insurance in the Obamacare exchanges, thus putting them under the same calculus as regular citizens.
Now... I will say this about the Congressional Republicans party itself... the Hasert Rule needs to go.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:00:28
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Can someone tell me what this shut down actually means? And why the republicans are being such dicks about everything?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:04:08
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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hotsauceman1 wrote:Can someone tell me what this shut down actually means? And why the republicans are being such dicks about everything?
Look here:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2013/09/30/227884483/the-shutdown-a-guide-to-what-would-and-wouldnt-close
Don't forget...takes two to tango. Reid/Senate said "no" to House's Proposal.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:05:00
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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whembly wrote: d-usa wrote:What have the Republicans actually offered in this series of CRs to call it "negotiating"?
They're negotiating from a technical standpoint that they have the power of the purse. (just like Tip O'Neil did in the 80's).
Latest one is thusly:
In addition to fully funding the government based on last year's levels+adj (which most cons don't like, they want more cuts)... A one-year delay of the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, and the so-called Vitter Amendment that would bar the federal government from giving subsidies to Congressional members and staff to help them buy insurance in the Obamacare exchanges, thus putting them under the same calculus as regular citizens.
Now... I will say this about the Congressional Republicans party itself... the Hasert Rule needs to go.
So they are proposing the CR (which both parties want), asking for extra (ObamaCare delay), and offering......?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:05:35
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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whembly wrote: Kilkrazy wrote: whembly wrote: Kilkrazy wrote: whembly wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That's not the way it works. You vote for your representative based on what they say they will do. If they don't live up to it you get the chance to vote them out four years later.
We have elections every 2 years.
So... are you saying that we should "shut up", except when we vote?
You were the one who proposed "shut up" as an option.
I assume that people lobby their representative between elections, however the chance to vote him out comes at the next election.
Right... then... I'm not sure what's your point then.
You started it. If you don't know your own point and can't explain it, I don't think there is much I can to help.
Uh... I'm responding to your two statement:
The remedy is in the people's own hands.
1. Vote differently at the next election.
2. Change the constitution to make single issue voting more effective.
I'm try to read between the lines... because, this smacks to me as "shut up, you've had your chance". If I'm taking you the wrong way... then, much apologies.
I accept your apology.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:07:33
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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d-usa wrote: whembly wrote: d-usa wrote:What have the Republicans actually offered in this series of CRs to call it "negotiating"?
They're negotiating from a technical standpoint that they have the power of the purse. (just like Tip O'Neil did in the 80's).
Latest one is thusly:
In addition to fully funding the government based on last year's levels+adj (which most cons don't like, they want more cuts)... A one-year delay of the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, and the so-called Vitter Amendment that would bar the federal government from giving subsidies to Congressional members and staff to help them buy insurance in the Obamacare exchanges, thus putting them under the same calculus as regular citizens.
Now... I will say this about the Congressional Republicans party itself... the Hasert Rule needs to go.
So they are proposing the CR (which both parties want), asking for extra (ObamaCare delay), and offering......?
A CR w/o significant cuts.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:07:49
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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So absolutely nothing changes for a normal person?
And yeah, but most of the time it seems like the R's are just whining they didnt gt their way and decide to screw everyone
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:10:13
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Mostly...
Although, many non-essential employees are furloughed during this time. That sucks for them.
And yeah, but most of the time it seems like the R's are just whining they didnt gt their way and decide to screw everyone
You just described the quintessential politician!
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:11:32
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
Texas
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Can someone please explain how deferring the individual mandate (just like the administration unilaterally and maybe illegally deferred the employer mandate) and the medical device tax (which is on gross earnings which means its effectively a government mandated price increase on all medical devices, i.e. wheel chairs, canes, hearing aids, walkers, etc.) is worth shutting down the government for?
It seems the Republicans are in it for the little guys and the democrats are just trying to protect their "street cred" on points that even they will agree are problematic aspects of the ACA and its implementation. If the Democrats are really for the little guy, why do they insist on allowing the individual mandate to be implemented with no delay despite the implementation issues when "big bad, money grubbing" corporate America gets a pass. If the democrats are for the little guy, why are they protecting a tax that disproportionately hits the middle class and working poor?
As for this whole nonsense that it's the law, again, the law has already been changed, unilaterally without the consent of Congress, so many times, people have lost count and laws are changed and repealed all the time.
There have also been plenty of times when Congress after the fact collectively admitted that they had passed a poorly written law (CPISA is a good example that I have personal experience with) and then delayed its implementation until it could be amended properly.
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"Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words." ~ St. Francis of Assisi |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:12:16
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Maybe offering a way to avoid everyone seeing the elephant in the room. Being the elephant a estimated 10 billion dollar difference due to the delay for big business being in compliance with ACA/Obamacare. Being the tax payers are going to get stiffed for 10 billion dollars (estimated). We all forget that or not see that?
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:13:52
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Senate Democrats on Tuesday voted to refuse to enter into official negotiations with the House on a spending bill, saying there can be no talks until the GOP agrees to end the shutdown that began Tuesday morning.
Senate Dems refused, officially, to enter into negotiations.
So... premise of the OP seems dead on.
“All they have to do is accept what we already passed,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat, said early Tuesday morning.
So, Harry Reid is telling the House they get no say. Unless they do what the Senate wants, nothing will happen.
So who is obstructing things here? My way or the highway is not how adults resolve differences. It's how children do it, until the adults step in and correct them.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/1/senate-kills-latest-shutdown-offer-effects-begin-b/
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:16:05
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Lord of Deeds wrote:Can someone please explain how deferring the individual mandate (just like the administration unilaterally and maybe illegally deferred the employer mandate) and the medical device tax (which is on gross earnings which means its effectively a government mandated price increase on all medical devices, i.e. wheel chairs, canes, hearing aids, walkers, etc.) is worth shutting down the government for?
I'd still argue it's a bad idea... but, what else can the House (aka, gatekeeper to Uncle Sam's Purse) do to get the Senate to come to the table?
It seems the Republicans are in it for the little guys and the democrats are just trying to protect their "street cred" on points that even they will agree are problematic aspects of the ACA and its implementation. If the Democrats are really for the little guy, why do they insist on allowing the individual mandate to be implemented with no delay despite the implementation issues when "big bad, money grubbing" corporate America gets a pass. If the democrats are for the little guy, why are they protecting a tax that disproportionately hits the middle class and working poor?
Hubris? I really don't know.
As for this whole nonsense that it's the law, again, the law has already been changed, unilaterally without the consent of Congress, so many times, people have lost count and laws are changed and repealed all the time.
That's what I'm say'n.
There have also been plenty of times when Congress after the fact collectively admitted that they had passed a poorly written law (CPISA is a good example that I have personal experience with) and then delayed its implementation until it could be amended properly.
The operative word there is CONGRESS does that.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:24:41
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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hotsauceman1 wrote:Can someone tell me what this shut down actually means? And why the republicans are being such dicks about everything?
I can help you with the first question, anyway.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 21:33:20
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The employer rules delay also will result in slightly greater costs to taxpayers, according to the report. The report estimates that the federal government will spend $1.38 trillion from 2014 to 2023 to expand coverage to more Americans, $12 billion -- or less than 1 percent -- more than projected before the employer mandate was postponed. The health care law includes spending cuts and tax increases that more than pay for the new costs and reduce the federal budget deficit, the agencies have previously reported.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/employer-mandate-delay_n_3678049.html
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 22:43:59
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Lord of the Fleet
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So, deficits reduced, healthcare for most people, and the thing more than pays for itself? Isn't this exactly the sort of thing the Republicans have demanded for years? Fiscal Responsibility? Or is it bad when the other party does it?
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 23:14:45
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Fixture of Dakka
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We'll see how far this goes at debt ceiling time. I just like how the party that takes oaths to uphold the constitution conveniently forgets the part of the 14th Amendment that requires them to pay the bills and honor all debts. It's only been around since the 1880's.... Perry v. US in 1935 resulted in case law that has stood since that the payment of public debt "went beyond the congressional power." Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes summed it up well, "To say that the Congress may withdraw or ignore that pledge is to assume that the Constitution contemplates a vain promise; a pledge having no other sanction than the pleasure and convenience of the pledgor."
The House can play chicken with the Supreme Court if they want to....but I think they would be in danger of handing power over to the Executive branch to increase the debt ceiling if there's a hold-up. The House technically has the power to start all budget bills but the Constitution requires public debt be serviced and it will happen with or without the rabid yahoos running the show now.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 23:47:25
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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agnosto wrote:We'll see how far this goes at debt ceiling time. I just like how the party that takes oaths to uphold the constitution conveniently forgets the part of the 14th Amendment that requires them to pay the bills and honor all debts.
Did I miss the ACA being part of the Constitution?
And this tactic is Constitutionally valid. You use Power of the Purse to stall a harmful piece of legislation. Or, as the last proposal made was, to at least have the bill have equal enforcement.
Why should the Dems be allowed to change when parts of it go into effect but the Republicans can't do the same?
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/01 23:49:20
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Because the administration that is actually administering it knows what part are and aren't ready?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 00:48:06
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Grey Templar wrote: agnosto wrote:We'll see how far this goes at debt ceiling time. I just like how the party that takes oaths to uphold the constitution conveniently forgets the part of the 14th Amendment that requires them to pay the bills and honor all debts.
Did I miss the ACA being part of the Constitution?
Which part of it legally passing through congress to be signed by the President, the procedure prescribed by the Constitution that it needed to go through, and then being upheld by the Supreme Court as Constitutional did you find confusing?
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 01:04:29
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Closing government offices and services doesn't mean you are not paying the bills and honoring the debts. Nothing is being violated here.
A violation would be insisting those services work and function without paying. It would be defaulting on the National Debt.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 01:23:31
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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The ACA is law. Period. End of story. (not going to get into any changes made to it after the fact).
The way our government is supposed to work is that majority is supposed to "rule".
If voters don't like what the majority does with laws...then that y vote out the majority with different people.
The majority does *not* need to negotiate...especially when threatened like they have been.
There has been a massive waste of time and energy over the past 4years. So much more could (should!) have been accomplished but instead it has been a pissing match, primarily started by the Republicans. They have, in my opinion, adopted a "scorched earth" policy of trying to deny any success to the Democrats, but most especially Obama.
I find it laughable that some think the Republicans are fighting for the "little guy". They are so pro-corporate and big business over the years....its mind boggling.
I am a registered independent voter. I did not vote for either Romney or Obama. I didn't care for what each was shoveling.
And I voted against each incumbent in my state.
Anyway....
I don't believe that the Congress (House) can legally not pay for governmental debts....one of them being the ACA.
Here's hoping that someone or something somehow fast tracks to the Supreme Court so they can send those fools packing with their tails between their legs.
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I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 01:24:32
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Pretty sure the ACA doesn't qualify as Debt. We may borrow money to pay for the ACA, but that doesn't make the ACA debt.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/02 01:26:05
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 02:15:36
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Frazzled wrote:And every major economy in Europe besides Germany has been through how many recessions in the last 5 years?
The issues in Europe are the fault of generally left wing politics... and not a financial collapse worsened by austerity?
That's imaginative. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ouze wrote:8:30 in the morning, and I've already read the best thing I'm going to read all day.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forar wrote:The Rock is one of my favourite movies, and this... this is a work of art.
If you don't mind I'll be sharing it with some folks elsewhere whom ought to appreciate it.
Not a problem. Glad you enjoyed it
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/02 02:19:15
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 02:27:07
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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E5-E6 Board question!!!
How many and what are the steps of problem solving?
I still stand by my reasoning that to be a member of Congress all needs a stint in the military.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 02:40:04
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Jihadin wrote:E5-E6 Board question!!!
How many and what are the steps of problem solving?
I still stand by my reasoning that to be a member of Congress all needs a stint in the military.
While it would be nice, that is opening up a can'o'worms we probably don't want to open. Military Government and other such unpleasant thoughts.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 02:43:05
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Jihadin wrote:E5-E6 Board question!!!
How many and what are the steps of problem solving?
I still stand by my reasoning that to be a member of Congress all needs a stint in the military.
IMO, it should also be written into the prerequisites for Presidential Candidacy... And I'd support even the totally fake, Weekend Warrior, Nasty Guard/ Reservist time as acceptable military. To me, it shows that someone cared enough for their country to put on the uniform, and do SOMETHING for the country without a significant demand in return.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 02:53:29
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I would be much more comfortable if someone with military experience decide to send arm forces in harms way. As for military dictatorship situation that some perceive happening be highly to damn near not happening. I would feel more comfortable if like someone(s) in deals in extremely high financial budgets can without a doubt come up with a good budget minus politicians influence.
The other side note would be if congressmen/women can actually deal a sound plan due to influence from a military background. Because if two commanders go at like the Democrats and the republicans both officers would be crap canned by the overall commander.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 03:03:59
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Ensis Ferrae wrote:IMO, it should also be written into the prerequisites for Presidential Candidacy... And I'd support even the totally fake, Weekend Warrior, Nasty Guard/ Reservist time as acceptable military. To me, it shows that someone cared enough for their country to put on the uniform, and do SOMETHING for the country without a significant demand in return.
If you guys insist on opening this door in this thread, you won't like what comes out of it.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/02 03:10:57
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Relax Ouze. Your messing with my imagination of a bunch of reps and senators hammering out a bill that all would accept by having a SMAJ riding herd on them.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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