Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/10/15 15:47:59
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
Jihadin wrote: Quite a few of you all need to read a bit more into the vets and the WWII monument. They were informed the park was closed. They went in anyway. The Park LEO's were not going to enforce the shutdown policy being they are vets themselves.
And yet the parks were open for the illegal immigrant rally. Selectively opening and closing parks to hurt the general public is a pretty cynical way to conduct politics.
Not if you're from Chicago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote: Looks like the Obama meeting fell apart on the republicans refusing to pass a budget before negotiations on the ACA. Obama refuses to negotiate as long as the GoP refused to allow the government to open.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 16:02:19
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/10/15 16:02:55
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
Well, that's a fun bit of snark, but given that most of congress are wealthy, it's not like having a solid plan is going to break them.
I think the bigger threat is that it would demand members of congress to use the internet.
That alone could lead to a double digit body count.
*It's not a series of tubes.mov*
Edit: wait a minute, I could swear I recalled some requirement to be on the ACA like everyone else anyway... have to go looking for that, but another forum I read is under that impression.
Edit 2: Found it:
Yea, if that's the frakking exemption line it's just a flat 5 THOUSAND dollar pay cut to every congress staff member. For those with family it's like 11k.
Let's just make sure our public servants are entirely bought and paid for with private money.
Won't put a dent in congress or the senate or the president.
But that sure fraks over pretty much every other staffer, if it applies to them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 16:26:23
2013/10/15 16:30:35
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
Please excuse if this was already posted it's been a long weekend I have not kept up with this thread fully. I saw something that was kind of damning for the House Republicans...
Although most of the moves House Republicans have been making to completely wreck the country, attempt to foist unrealistic and unpalatable demands down the throats of the White House and Democrats, and crash the global economy, a sneaky little maneuver by House Republicans somehow managed to stay below the radar. But Democratic Rep. Chris van Hollen blew it wide open (see video). Van Hollen's closing comment - "I think democracy has been suspended, Mr. Speaker" - is reminiscent of the comment made by Joseph Welch during the Joseph McCarthy hearings, "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
The answer to that, in 1954, and now, in 2013, is a resounding, "No." There is no sense of decency to be found among Republicans. And this spear in the heart of the Democratic process by House Republicans proves that as little else can.
The "Clause" this and "Rule" that and "advisory opinion" over there is a little confusing, but the upshot is that on October 1st, House Republicans quietly trashed the Standing Rule of the House - which permitted any member, Republican or Democrat, to bring a motion to the floor - and instead passed a resolution allowing only House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, or his designee, to bring a motion to the floor.
"Mr. Speaker," Maryland's Democrat Rep. Chris van Hollen addressed Republican Jason Chaffetz, House Speaker Pro Tempore, "Pursuant to Clause 4 of Rule 22, I move that the House take from the Speaker's table the Senate Amendment to the House Joint Resolution 59, recede from its amendment and concur in the Senate Amendment to open the government now."
Speaker Chaffetz: "Under Section 2 of House Resolution 368, that motion may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."
van Hollen: "Parliamentary inquiry . . . the Standing Rule of the House reads, Mr. Speaker, 'When the stage of disagreement has been reached on a Bill or Resolution with House or Senate Amendments, a motion to dispose of any amendment shall be privileged.' Mr.Speaker, my question is, is this parliamentary status of the bill, does it meet the requirements of 22/4?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The House has altered that operation of that Standing Rule."
van Hollen: ". . . This Standing Rule of the House, which I have here, has been altered by the House, is that what the Speaker is saying?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The House adopted a resolution altering."
van Hollen: "Parliamentary inquiry, Mr.Speaker, when was that alteration made?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "House Resolution 368."
van Hollen: "House Resolution 368 . . . Parliamentary Inquiry . . . October 1st, resolved and Section 2 of that says any motion pursuant to Clause 4 of Rule 22 relating to the House Joint Resolution may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee, is that what you're referring to, Mr. Speaker?" (Emphasis added).
Speaker Chaffetz: "That is the resolution."
van Hollen: "So, Mr. Speaker . . . Parliamentary Inquiry. H. Res. 368 changed the Standing Rules of the House to take away from any member of the House the privilege of calling up the Senate bill to immediately re-open the government, is that right?" (Emphasis added).
Speaker Chaffetz: "It did change the operation of the Standing Rule, right."
van Hollen: "So just, parliamentary inquiry, a privileged motion . . . would have allowed any member of this House, Republican or Democrat, to call up the Senate bill to open the government, is that right?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The Chair did not give an advisory opinion on that."
van Hollen: "But Mr. Speaker, a privileged resolution as cited in Rule 22/4 of the Standing Rules of the House would allow any member of the House to offer that resolution, is that right?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The Chair will not give an advisory opinion."
van Hollen: " . . . You just . . . said that was changed so that it would no longer be a privileged motion for any member, but it would be exclusively the right of the Republican leader or his designee, am I right about that?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The House will follow House Resolution 368."
van Hollen: ". . . I want to be absolutely clear that H.Res 368 changed the Standing Rules of the House so that only the Republican leader or his designee . . . Parliamentary Inquiry . . . Is the majority leader or his designee . . . on the floor of the House today? Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Speaker . . . the Rules Committee under the Rules of the House changed the Standing Rules of the House to take away the right of any member to move to vote to open the government and gave that right exclusively to the Republican leader, is that right?"
Speaker Chaffetz: "The House adopted that Resolution."
van Hollen: "I make my motion, Mr. Speaker. I renew my motion that under the regular Standing Rules of the House, Clause 4, Rule 22, that the House take up the Senate Amendments and open the government now."
Speaker Chaffetz: "Under Section 2 of House Resolution 368 that motion may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."
van Hollen: "Why were the rules rigged to keep the government shut down? Well, Mr. Speaker, I think democracy has been suspended, Mr. Speaker."
As George Bernard Shaw once said, "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty." It is, apparently, Republicans' "duty" to rig the rules so that they, and only they, are allowed a seat at the table. Self-implosion among Republicans is already beginning. We can only hope that when the top finally blows off, we can be well and truly rid of stupid fools who have arrogated power to themselves when, given that elections have consequences, they should be slinking to the back of the line with their tails tucked between their legs.
There's a nice video to go along with it, but it's transcribed above.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 16:43:23
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/10/15 16:50:01
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
But that sure fraks over pretty much every other staffer, if it applies to them.
Good.
If the law is screwing everyone in the US outside of special interests, it should screw them too as they wrote it.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/10/15 16:56:18
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
But that sure fraks over pretty much every other staffer, if it applies to them.
Good.
If the law is screwing everyone in the US outside of special interests, it should screw them too as they wrote it.
Wait, it's forcing people who already have health insurance from their employer to get it from Obamacare? Because as far as I've managed to understand that's the issue; removing the healthcare benefits of the congressional staffers is treating them WORSE than everyone else, whereas letting them keep it IS keeping it the same for them as everyone else.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/10/15 17:11:56
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
But that sure fraks over pretty much every other staffer, if it applies to them.
Good.
If the law is screwing everyone in the US outside of special interests, it should screw them too as they wrote it.
Except it's not going to hurt the senators who actually participated. They're worth an average of $14 million apiece.
But the staff who are making a comfortable 5 digit living? That's not exactly chump change.
The people you seem to want it to hurt the most are the ones who will be hurt the least.
The latest is the modified Vitter amendment... only the elected Congress, appointees and POTUS. Not the staff.
Well thats a shame.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 17:32:28
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/10/15 19:03:40
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
he U.S. federal government shut down on Oct. 1 after House Republicans refused to fund it unless President Obama agreed to repeal his signature health care reform, the Affordable Care Act, popularly known as Obamacare.
Although most polls show that a majority of Americans blame Republicans for the shutdown, many in the Tea Party feel President Obama is at fault for not immediately acquiescing to their demands.
"The tipping point for me was closing the World War II memorial," says Texas Republican Louie Gohmert, who voted for the bill which effectively shut down the government. "I can't believe Obama did that. I mean how dare he put politics ahead of our veterans.
"All this clown needs to do is repeal the most important law he ever passed, and then this will all be over. Why is that so hard? The Tea Party represents almost 22 percent of Americans. Only a dictator would refuse to give us everything we want. Obama should be more than impeached -- he should be in jail."
Hearings in the judiciary committee are expected to last for two weeks, after which the committee will create specific impeachment charges and refer them to the full House. If a majority of House members vote to impeach the President, the matter is referred to the Senate, where the Democratic majority makes ultimate success unlikely.
"We probably won't be successful," admits Ted Cruz, one of the few Republicans in the Senate supporting the impeachment process. "But we have to try. This guy is worse than Hitler. We have to do something."
I think the Tea Party has finally jumped the shark.
he U.S. federal government shut down on Oct. 1 after House Republicans refused to fund it unless President Obama agreed to repeal his signature health care reform, the Affordable Care Act, popularly known as Obamacare.
Although most polls show that a majority of Americans blame Republicans for the shutdown, many in the Tea Party feel President Obama is at fault for not immediately acquiescing to their demands.
"The tipping point for me was closing the World War II memorial," says Texas Republican Louie Gohmert, who voted for the bill which effectively shut down the government. "I can't believe Obama did that. I mean how dare he put politics ahead of our veterans.
"All this clown needs to do is repeal the most important law he ever passed, and then this will all be over. Why is that so hard? The Tea Party represents almost 22 percent of Americans. Only a dictator would refuse to give us everything we want. Obama should be more than impeached -- he should be in jail."
Hearings in the judiciary committee are expected to last for two weeks, after which the committee will create specific impeachment charges and refer them to the full House. If a majority of House members vote to impeach the President, the matter is referred to the Senate, where the Democratic majority makes ultimate success unlikely.
"We probably won't be successful," admits Ted Cruz, one of the few Republicans in the Senate supporting the impeachment process. "But we have to try. This guy is worse than Hitler. We have to do something."
I think the Tea Party has finally jumped the shark.
I really hope that was from The Onion.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
2013/10/15 19:09:33
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
"All this clown needs to do is repeal the most important law he ever passed, and then this will all be over. Why is that so hard? The Tea Party represents almost 22 percent of Americans. Only a dictator would refuse to give us everything we want. Obama should be more than impeached -- he should be in jail."
Please tell me that was the Onion or something.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/10/15 19:09:45
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
"The Daily Currant is an American satirical news blog that focuses on politics, technology, and entertainment.[1] A number of its satirical stories have been taken for true news reports by press and members of the public.[2]
The Daily Currant is a competitor to The Onion. According to Quantcast, the site garners over 1.5 million page views a month.[3]"
I just thought this thread needed moar laughs though that everyone can believe the story is as disappointing for Bachman and company as it is hilarious.
Lindsay Graham wrote:We won't be the last political party to overplay our hand. It might happen one day on the Democratic side. And if it did, would Republicans, for the good of the country, kinda give a little? We really did go too far. We screwed up. But their response is making things worse, not better.
"Okay, okay, so we messed up, and perhaps taking the world economy hostage to put a dent in legislation that we couldn't take out with forty votes and the supreme court might've been a bit extreme, but we're 48 hours or so from a crisis, so let's put it all behind us and fix this. Right guys? Guys?"
Also, remember when S&P downgraded the US's credit rating a while back? Nothing big.
Looks like Fitch & Moody are watching this closely. That couldn't possibly be another little tiny issue cropping up...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 23:02:51
2013/10/16 01:31:49
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
Alfndrate wrote: Please excuse if this was already posted it's been a long weekend I have not kept up with this thread fully. I saw something that was kind of damning for the House Republicans...
Yeah, a lack of decency describes the actions of the Republican House rather well. Not just in changing standing rules so that just the Majority leader can pass bills, but the idea that holding up the basic functioning of government until the other side agrees to give you stuff.
They conceal all of that with lies and nonsense, as the transcript you posted above demonstrates, basically because there's no way to justify what they're actually doing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Wait, it's forcing people who already have health insurance from their employer to get it from Obamacare? Because as far as I've managed to understand that's the issue; removing the healthcare benefits of the congressional staffers is treating them WORSE than everyone else, whereas letting them keep it IS keeping it the same for them as everyone else.
Yep, that's exactly what it is. But lots of people choose not to see that because they're more interested in trying to make some kind of clever political point. There's no political win to be found in saying 'we're trying to get congressional staffers to lose employee healthcare coverage', so instead we get lots and lots of nonsense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/16 02:46:26
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/10/16 08:02:54
Subject: Re: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
PITTSBURGH—After noticing a newspaper article about the implementation of the upcoming Affordable Care Act, local father Andrew Panetta, 53, made an effort Monday to explain the intricacies of Obamacare to his son, sources confirmed. “It’s bs,” Panetta reportedly said, clarifying how insurance companies will comply with federal law in order to properly set up state-sponsored health care exchanges. “All of it. Complete and total bs.” Panetta went on to conclude his seven-second explanation of the expansive new health care law by saying, “I’m telling you, it’s bs.”
2013/10/16 13:51:28
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
To wit, you own at least two homes; so I doubt that you will be suffering.
Dunno about two homes, but I can guess who will own two houses come next election at this rate. Hint: It's not the GOP.
Good one. If Democrats weren't such haters of the Bill of Rights now, I'd say let them have it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus-templarius wrote: Deal in the works coming from senate, libertarian party/republicans basically get nothing of what they wanted.
Bohner to send over a 'clean message' to help expedite tomorrow.
Looks like we might not default after all. Of course, Cruz could still go full slow and try to filibuster it himself.
I'll believe it when I see it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/16 14:34:03
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/10/16 15:01:20
Subject: Harry Reid... leader of the "I will not negotiate" caucus
daedalus-templarius wrote: Deal in the works coming from senate, libertarian party/republicans basically get nothing of what they wanted.
Bohner to send over a 'clean message' to help expedite tomorrow.
Looks like we might not default after all. Of course, Cruz could still go full slow and try to filibuster it himself.
Yeah, I'm sure Boehner will bring it to his Caucus. The guy knows it is DOA.
This is the first time where I am not confident a deal will be struck befor ethe midnight hour. There is no face-saving way for Republicans or Democrats to back away from their positions. Someone will have to capitulate.
For Republicans that equal electoral "death" in their base, sinc ethe Conservative movement never fails, it can only be failed. For Dems, it means giving up on their marquee legislation that has taken since Truman to get anywhere, and electoral death from their base.
It is a political suicide pact!
Edit: Some people (like David Weigel) are reporting tha the House Republicans have collapsed and a deal is imminent. I'm not sure I believe it.
The United States government could soon be back in business. According to a Republican member of the US Senate, lawmakers in Washington have reached an agreement that will re-open the government and save the country from default.
Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-New Hampshire) told the Associated Press early Wednesday that leaders in her chamber reached a deal that would end a shutdown now in its second week, while also raising the nation’s debt ceiling and in turn increasing the country’s ability to borrow from international lenders.
CNBC reported soon after that Republican Party senators planned to announce an agreement at 12p.m. EDT that afternoon. Sources who spoke with reporters at Politico said the GOP-controlled House of Representatives would then weigh in on the bill, paving the way for all but certain approval in the Senate.
A deal would keep the government open through at least January 15, the AP reported, and the debt ceiling would be raised through February 7.
Rep. John Boehner (R-Ohio), the speaker of the House, is prepared to rely on Democratic votes in Congress to approve the bipartisan deal, NBC News correspondent Kelly O’Donnell heard from sources.
Moments earlier, Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Georgia) told National Public Radio, "I think folks on both sides of the aisle in the Senate are ready to get this done.”
The federal government was slated to hit its borrowing limit as early as Thursday, setting the stage for an all-but certain default. On Tuesday, Fitch ratings warned the US of a possible credit downgrade. Upon news of a reported agreement on Wednesday, the Dow Jones industrial average surged 200 points.
.. we'll see I guess.....
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
