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Hi all. I'm curious how competitive Tau lists are constructed. At 1850+ I see very few troop choices so I'm curious what their main aim is in the game. Below is the second place winning list of NOVA. I'm not very familiar with Tau yet but how many troop choices are there in that list? Why do I see a lot of tournament level Tau lists with so few troops? I don't see very many Fire Warriors... unless I'm just looking in the wrong place. Is there any major event Tau lists out there that anyone can link/post that may have more Fire Warriors/Troops than the one below? I'm looking to start building my own Tau lists soon and I like looking at competitive lists to start a base for my own. However, I'm just having such a hard time figuring how they take and control objectives. Any insight would be great.


TLDR: Why do tournament level Tau lists like the one below have such few troop choices? Where are all the Fire Warriors? Do you not need a lot of Fire Warriors/Kroots to have a good, well-rounded, competitive list to claim objectives with?


Hq Farsight
O’vesa
3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3, missile podx3
10 kroot w hound
1 crisis suit, flamer, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override, positional relay
Riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, 2 shielded missile drones, talisman of arthas moloch
Skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
Allied detachment (codex tau)
Commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, neuroweb system jammer
10 kroot w hound

By running Farsight and the allied in there, that's 7 troop choices as the Crisis Suits are all troops.

Anyway, for many, many years the Tau players have learned to skimp on the Firewarriors because they weren't all that great. The Kroot weren't so hot either. Instead Tau focused on high firepower choices like Broadsides and Crisis Suits and tried to blast their opponents off the game board instead of controlling objectives.

Move forward with that Mindset to the current edition and, while Firewarriors have improved, there is much more firepower available to Tau with the Riptide and improved Crisis Suits. The result is lists like the above determined to put as much of that firepower on the table and almost ignoring objective play (4 of the troop choices have a single model).

These lists are hard to beat due to their obscene amount of firepower and the fact that that firepower is spread through the entire list so killing off units doesn't reduce the pain very quickly.

Jefffar wrote:
By running Farsight and the allied in there, that's 7 troop choices as the Crisis Suits are all troops.

Anyway, for many, many years the Tau players have learned to skimp on the Firewarriors because they weren't all that great. The Kroot weren't so hot either. Instead Tau focused on high firepower choices like Broadsides and Crisis Suits and tried to blast their opponents off the game board instead of controlling objectives.

Move forward with that Mindset to the current edition and, while Firewarriors have improved, there is much more firepower available to Tau with the Riptide and improved Crisis Suits. The result is lists like the above determined to put as much of that firepower on the table and almost ignoring objective play (4 of the troop choices have a single model).

These lists are hard to beat due to their obscene amount of firepower and the fact that that firepower is spread through the entire list so killing off units doesn't reduce the pain very quickly.

Hm... Interesting. I can't seem to find where Commander Farsight makes the Crisis Suits troop choices. >_< Do they take up Troop slots? Can they act seperately or are they attached to Farsight o_o?


Also, that makes sense. So they try more for the weight of firepower over objective camping. Sort of like the original leaf blower IG list in 5e when I use to play I'm guessing. Also, just curious, how have Crisis Suits improved?

The Farsight Enclave list makes Crisis Suits troops with or without Farsight in your list.

Farsight Enclaves supplement.

As for improvements to the Crisis Suits, they are cheaper, ignore night fighting and able to fire two weapons at a time now. Even better they can take doubles of the same weapon and some of their weapons have improved.

For example a single crisis suit can now fire 4 st 6 ap 2 shots or 8 st 5 ap 5 shots or 4 st 7 ap 4 shots or 2 st 8 ap 1 shots that roll an extra penetration die at 9 inches.

The Riptide is the real beast of course and by moving Crisis to troops there is no competition for the vaunted elite slot. An Enclaves list like the one above, can put 4 Riptides into a singe detachment (one is an HQ choice). Adding on allied Tau brings it to 5 Riptides. Doubling the FOC is 7 Riptides and double FOC with allied Tau gives you 9 Jet Pack Monstrous Creatures capable of throwing out up to a dozen St 6 Rending shots, 3 strength 7 AP 2 shots or a big St 8 AP 2 plate each. These bad boys can be configured with Skyfire, Interceptor and/or Feel No Pain as well.

In short, Tauzilla plus Enclavewing is going to be nasty until someone comes up with a hard counter.

I never thought I would hear 'Tauzilla'. Your post makes me sad. Now I have to go comfort my broods of Carnifexen, thanks a lot.

But in all seriousness, the shooty MC spam that they can bring is unreal. The markerlights reducing cover saves has been the real challenge for me, as I rely on cover completely. Literally the only list that has worked for me is a Tervigon spam list, and I just remove models all game until I -typically- win on objectives. But even that is unreliable.

Instat death and poison wounds can be of some use, but then you're facing ...special... overwatch. Sigh.

GavCanon Centurions look like they have potential versus the Riptide and similar MC spam, but their inability to deal instant-death means that the Riptides will get to reply with weaponry that bypasses the Centurions' armour and wounds on a 2+ as well.

For riptide death you really need something that is AP 2 or better and causes instant death. Most all of that is melee based however and a good Tau Player won't let that live long enough to get into melee.

This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.

The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.

Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.

Yup, IC abuse abounds as well. It used to be the Tau didn't have such great ability granting IC options.

The Forge World XV-107 is rumored to be a Heavy Support Choice and it's primary weapons will likely ignore cover. I am sure that in FW allowed tournaments it will add to the multi-MC mayhem.

Hmm thanks guys.

Any input on the standard/best wargear loadout for the crisis suits? I know I'm going to want my rip tides with ion accelerator and sms.

 lambsandlions wrote:
This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.

The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.

Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.

Wait, what grants them 4d6 DtW?

roxor08 wrote:

Wait, what grants them 4d6 DtW?

There is a Farsight Encalve signature system that grants 4D6 DtW to everyone within 12".

 AtoMaki wrote:

roxor08 wrote:

Wait, what grants them 4d6 DtW?

There is a Farsight Encalve signature system that grants 4D6 DtW to everyone within 12".

WOW. How many points does that cost? The 4d6 is take the highest I assume....no added together?

roxor08 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

roxor08 wrote:

Wait, what grants them 4d6 DtW?

There is a Farsight Encalve signature system that grants 4D6 DtW to everyone within 12".

WOW. How many points does that cost? The 4d6 is take the highest I assume....no added together?

25 points and take the highest.

Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.

=)

He has a lot of troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. That's why i favor deployment-option heavy armies. I can't get outmaneuvered and I can always use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.

 lambsandlions wrote:
This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.

The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.

Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.

Thank the emprah nobody at my FLGS is WAAC enough to play this unit. It's just, dammit, I hate use this word, but it's broken. I mean seriously what unit/list/army in the game could ever reliably take this thing down? Especially if it gets even one round of shooting off at you? I definitely don't know what to do.

 Jancoran wrote:
Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.

=)

He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.

Thanks man! Great input.

Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??

It's a separate book from the Tau Empire codex. It has different special characters/wargear and crisis suits are troops choices. Best way to run tau right now is either Tau Empire w/ Farsight Enclave allies or vice versa.

astro_nomicon wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.

The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.

Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.

Thank the emprah nobody at my FLGS is WAAC enough to play this unit. It's just, dammit, I hate use this word, but it's broken. I mean seriously what unit/list/army in the game could ever reliably take this thing down? Especially if it gets even one round of shooting off at you? I definitely don't know what to do.

You could always write to GW and kindly ask them to do proper playtesting

Naw wrote:
[

You could always write to GW and kindly ask them to do proper playtesting

Oh wouldn't that be nice! Can't complain too much though. We do pay GW to obey GW. I just want a hard counter that friggin' unit...

Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.

Because this list got "lots of troops" on paper, but in the end its just 20 kroot and 14 marines, not alot by any scratch.


As for the double riptides with support commander...
Heck, I don't know. its rather lethal, and hopefully FAQed in some way (i'm enclaves player myself and I cant help asking who on earth was this dumb to do a riptide IC) heck, forbid IC to join riptides, it was OBVIOUSLY not intended.
Try plasma spam, or grav spam.
ID weapons are also a good choice.
A fast and solid assault unit might also get it done, just make sure to cut down drones to drop the commander first to make them unable to run.

Thats why i am always against tournaments that favor missions without troop requirements. Its what keeps cheesy lists down because they usually dont have many if any troops worth shaking a stick at. Remove the troops they do got and just try and survive, you should win barring bad luck/positioning. Ideally, of course.

Farsight suppliment is currently an ipad ebook only right now. October 13/14 or something like that its suppose to come out on paper, and im waiting for it.

Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.

An effective way to take care of riptides is to multi-assault a softer unit and sweep the riptide with the victory. A careful commander wont let that happen but sometimes you can't prevent it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.

O'vesa comes with two shielded missile drones so he can join a unit of 3 stealth suits or a unite of 3 crisis suits and they will have t6. Just don't let your drones die first and you are golden. But really I would never match the riptide up with a 18'' gun. Crisis suits with missile pods is another story as they pair up with the drones well and O'vesa makes an amazing shield for the suits.

@BlueRift
That works when tau plays gunline, but in a list like this the riptides will probably not be close enough for a multi-assault.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.

O'vesa comes with two shielded missile drones so he can join a unit of 3 stealth suits or a unite of 3 crisis suits and they will have t6. Just don't let your drones die first and you are golden. But really I would never match the riptide up with a 18'' gun. Crisis suits with missile pods is another story as they pair up with the drones well and O'vesa makes an amazing shield for the suits.

@BlueRift
That works when tau plays gunline, but in a list like this the riptides will probably not be close enough for a multi-assault.

Oh damn. O'vesa, stealth suit, drones? Or a XV8 suit with irdium armour, more suits and/or drones.

Golden!

I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.

Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.

Ehhh.. What? There were 8 missions in the NOVA Open. First one was kill points (Purge the Alien), the rest were objective based. Two of those were The Scouring and Big Guns Never Tire, but that still leaves 5 missions were you either need to take objectives or table your opponent to win.

Here's the mission packet.



As for the topic at hand; understanding Tau tactics; it's not that different from any other armies in 40k, and it starts at the army building stage. Don't give up first blood, don't have a vulnerable warlord, make sure you have capabilities for breaking out of your deployment zone, preferably to take linebreaker, and make sure you are able to hold one more objective than your opponent at the end of turn five, and make sure you can keep it for at least one more turn.

Beyond that, have the fire power you need to achieve the following goals: 1) get first blood, 2) take out/nullify threats, 3) take out/nullify scoring units.

So, what do I mean by "take out/nullify"? Let's say I'm facing a Deamon Army with a Screamerstar (4 Heralds of Tzeentch on discs, 10 Screamers; with the 4++ spell from Divination and the Grimoire, these guys have a 2++ with a re-roll. Ouch.). So if I get first turn and they are within line of sight from the Riptides, I shoot them before they get to power up. That would be the taking out part. Nullify is trickier with this particular Tau list, but with Eldar as an example, just assault the Screamerstar with a Wraithknight and they should be stuck there for the rest of the game.


Moving on to the list in the OP, specifically, what it has is a great Deathstar, two mobile threats (the other two Riptides), two outflankers, and scoring units that are numerous (in the amount of units), can hide efficiently, and can provide supporting fire at decent range. And finally the Skyray.

What this list gives you is a great unit to push for midfield, with all the support it needs. In addition, you are forcing your opponent to prioritize between your killer and your scorers. And then, after at least two turns of devastating shooting you come in with two Kroot units in the opponent's deployment zone that can go for linebreaker and/or objectives. Now you're basically forcing your opponent to fight a three-front war with his ever diminishing forces.

 syypher wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.

=)

He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.

Thanks man! Great input.

Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??

Basically GW has started releasing supplement codices, which as a chapter - approved style addendum to the main codex starting with codex Iyanden for Eldar, then Codex Farsight Enclaves for Tau Empire and most recently Black Legion for Chaos Marines, with the exception of Iyanden, these supplements are first released as digital copies off the iBook and BL website, only to be released as a hard copy some months later (Farsight is this month).

Each supplement has additional standard missions, signature system equivalents that replace those of the standard codex and have one supplement specific trick that makes them unique.

Iyanden has a specific primaris power for the Eldar runes of battle and allows your warlord to be a wraithlord or wraithknight.

Farsight allows crisis suits as troops but requires two taxes to be paid, the first is that anything that can take bonding knives, must take them for the additional cost and your first troops choice must be a 3-man crisis suit unit.

Black Legion allows chosen as troops without Abbaddon, but everything that can takes Veterans of the Long Warmmust take it at the additional cost.

Finally, all supplements are treated as their main codex for purposes of allying AND they are battle brothers with their main codex.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.

Because this list got "lots of troops" on paper, but in the end its just 20 kroot and 14 marines, not alot by any scratch.

Thats why i am always against tournaments that favor missions without troop requirements. Its what keeps cheesy lists down because they usually dont have many if any troops worth shaking a stick at. Remove the troops they do got and just try and survive, you should win barring bad luck/positioning. Ideally, of course.

Ummmm....have either of you ever played at NOVA or tested out the NOVA missions? They are, and have always been, very troop oriented.

6th edition is witnessing a shift back to MSU, but that doesn't mean players don't need 5-6 units of them. I took 6, and saw most good players doing around the same or more.

 Krellnus wrote:

 syypher wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.

=)

He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.

Thanks man! Great input.

Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??

Basically GW has started releasing supplement codices, which as a chapter - approved style addendum to the main codex starting with codex Iyanden for Eldar, then Codex Farsight Enclaves for Tau Empire and most recently Black Legion for Chaos Marines, with the exception of Iyanden, these supplements are first released as digital copies off the iBook and BL website, only to be released as a hard copy some months later (Farsight is this month).

Each supplement has additional standard missions, signature system equivalents that replace those of the standard codex and have one supplement specific trick that makes them unique.

Iyanden has a specific primaris power for the Eldar runes of battle and allows your warlord to be a wraithlord or wraithknight.

Farsight allows crisis suits as troops but requires two taxes to be paid, the first is that anything that can take bonding knives, must take them for the additional cost and your first troops choice must be a 3-man crisis suit unit.

Black Legion allows chosen as troops without Abbaddon, but everything that can takes Veterans of the Long Warmmust take it at the additional cost.

Finally, all supplements are treated as their main codex for purposes of allying AND they are battle brothers with their main codex.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Best post ever. lol

This was perfect. Thank you very much!