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 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
Twin linked (in some scenarios), riduiculousely under costed, and free wounds. OH YEAH, and they give 4++. And they are still T6, which is fething amazing. And the 104 can get drone controller and bump up their BS.

the only drones that benefit from a DC are gun drones, marker drones, Sniper drones

oh ok nvm then.

 JGrand wrote:


I still think your assertion is debatable. I don't see many competitive Tau lists that do take Crisis Suits. Tau are points tight. They are a great army, but by the time a player fits in a Commander, Broadsides, Skyrays, Riptides, and some troops, there aren't a ton of points left.

And yes, you do have to compare taking Crisis Suits to all the options in the codex, as you have limited points. If a player spends 156 points on three suits with 2x missile pod, that is 156 points that can't be used elsewhere. If we do play your game and compare those points directly to other troops, a Tau player can get 26 Kroot for the same price. This doesn't even include the mandatory second HQ.

Well first off, you don't see many competitive pure tau lists. Most competitive players ally. Now there are a large amount of people who play tau/farsight, all of them have 3 crisis suits. Maybe, like me, they figured out, If I am already taking 3 crisis suits and 2 HQs I should ally with farsight. You say you don't see many lists with crisis suits, I say I do see many lists with crisis suits. So I guess we either need to do an analysis of all the lists out there or just agree to disagree. All I can say is that if, like me, a player is running 2 HQs and 3 crisis suits there is no reason not to take farsight allies.

I can speak from experience and tell you that tourney results do not indicate that.

Except tau/farsight won the nova and got second place. When you look at the average place of tau/tau you get 49, while the average place for tau/eldar is 63. So not only did tau/tau win but they also, as a whole, placed better than tau/eldar. Now this is just the analysis of one tournament but many regard this to be THE tournament that matters. I can not follow every tournament that comes out, only the really large ones. Mind showing me the results of the tournaments that do not indicate tau/farsight is the best ally combination?

You are wrong in stating that a player has to significantly change their list to take other allies. I frequently see Tau with a Bikeseer and 3x Guardian Jetbikes. 166 points of allies is less radical than taking the units that are required to make Farsight allies worthwhile. Tigirus and 5x Scouts is 220, and the is the same way.

Finally, there was never a time in which this thread was somehow limited to pure Tau. This is a thread about competitive Tau. Hence, we have to discuss the commonly seen (and potent) ally combinations out there.

I guess it comes down to what you consider significant. You say points are so tight in tau that 156 is hard to come up with for some crisis suits, so I assume 166 and 220 might be significant. For me, not significant is spending 3 points when I am already running 2 HQs and 3 Crisis suits.

And while this thread is not specifically discussing pure tau, the post in question was. The issue was, is tau/farsight better than pure tau. Even if tau/eldar, tau/sm, tau/anything is better than tau/farsight it doesn't effect if tau/farsight is better than just pure tau.

 syypher wrote:
How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?

I have used pathfinders in two games since the new book hit and that was just to test out using a recon drone equipped devilfish to bring in Kroot on the backfield.

Markerlights are nice thanks to the 36" range, they rarely are out of range of anything. But if you ever intend to actually move them around then you're having to snap fire.
-Funny side note: Compare the Ion rifle and rail rifle with the markerlight bit. The giant cannons are rapid fire and the flashlight attatchment is heavy.

I believe most people now get their buffs from either the buff commander, farseer ally, or markerdrones. I think Pathfinders are still usable, but they aren't flexible as markerdrones.
Personally I take the drone commander with target lock and missiles; doesn't need markers himself for cover or accuracy thanks to BS5 and AP4 and a good range to keep him and the drones in range of their seperate targets.
Drones themselves put out plenty of markerlights and are very mobile along with it while only being marginally more expensive per shot than the pathfinders while having several boosts over them.

Also I'm going to end up trying out the buff commander attached to a Riptide. I've had 4 games now where too many units are close together and I scatter a template onto a unit that didn't get cover removed. Figure it'll give me a better damage output.

Well first off, you don't see many competitive pure tau lists. Most competitive players ally. Now there are a large amount of people who play tau/farsight, all of them have 3 crisis suits. Maybe, like me, they figured out, If I am already taking 3 crisis suits and 2 HQs I should ally with farsight. You say you don't see many lists with crisis suits, I say I do see many lists with crisis suits. So I guess we either need to do an analysis of all the lists out there or just agree to disagree. All I can say is that if, like me, a player is running 2 HQs and 3 crisis suits there is no reason not to take farsight allies.

I'm not so sure about this claim. There were plenty of pure Tau at Nova. As for your assertion, again, you still lose something by allying Tau with Tau--even in your situation. You lose the opportunity to ally with something else. Hence, there is a reason.

Except tau/farsight won the nova and got second place. When you look at the average place of tau/tau you get 49, while the average place for tau/eldar is 63. So not only did tau/tau win but they also, as a whole, placed better than tau/eldar. Now this is just the analysis of one tournament but many regard this to be THE tournament that matters. I can not follow every tournament that comes out, only the really large ones. Mind showing me the results of the tournaments that do not indicate tau/farsight is the best ally combination?

Yup...I was there. It is a bit misleading to just go by average placing. Taking the mean doesn't account for outliers. The mode would give us a better idea of placing. Still, there are good and bad players who skew just about everything.

Also, if we want to get down to it, Eldau and Taudar both had better win percentages than Tau/Tau at Nova.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/1006/nova-open-by-the-numbers

I guess it comes down to what you consider significant. You say points are so tight in tau that 156 is hard to come up with for some crisis suits, so I assume 166 and 220 might be significant. For me, not significant is spending 3 points when I am already running 2 HQs and 3 Crisis suits.

It is significant in that you get more from adding a fast moving troop choice and a battle brother psyker than another HQ and 3 suits that are, in many ways, redundant.

And while this thread is not specifically discussing pure tau, the post in question was. The issue was, is tau/farsight better than pure tau. Even if tau/eldar, tau/sm, tau/anything is better than tau/farsight it doesn't effect if tau/farsight is better than just pure tau.

 D6Damager wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Farsight Enclave is far from auto-take. Relying on Tau alone can bring some issues. For example, you have to rely on markerlights to boost your BS, Pathfinders aren't that great as opposing Tau/Eldar can wipe them out with ease. Sky Rays eat up Heavy Slots. You can take a bunch in your Broadside squad, but that will only light up one squad and you'll probably then need target locks as to not kill the squad you just markered.

I do like some of the combos and I think Justin Cook's list is pretty awesome. But in most cases I think Eldar or SM offer better choices as allies and better fill in some of the holes.

He got 2nd place only using the Skray markerlights. There were no pathfinders, drones, tetras, or bombers in his list.

His list had most of the shooting consolidated into one unit. Watch his games, those other Riptides didn't end up doing that much damage. BS3 on a ~200 Pt model isn't great. If you aren't running a deathstar (O'vesa, Farsight bomb), you'll probably need to dedicate a fair bit of points to buffing your averagely accurate units.

 syypher wrote:
Hmm.. okay I got it. Quantity over Quality and you can make them even better with the Marker Lights. Cool! Thanks guys!


Speaking of Marker lights. How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?

I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.

 Jancoran wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Hmm.. okay I got it. Quantity over Quality and you can make them even better with the Marker Lights. Cool! Thanks guys!


Speaking of Marker lights. How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?

I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.

Interesting stuff guys! All the articles I've been reading were released when the Tau codex came out and everyone was raving about Pathfinder usage with Marker Lights. I guess that's changed over the past couple months

I'm thinking of using a Skyray so once it's unloaded I'll still have those 2 Markerlights and maybe a MarkerDrone unit. Sounds legit~


What is the optimal loadout of a Crisis suit? The wargear says I can take up to 3 weapons but I don't know if that's worth the point investment on a marine statline model... Are they worth their points? T4 3+ save... and with 2x Missile Pods, they are 57pts each. Is that even worth it anymore? Or do most people keep them with just 1x Missile Pod? Or am I equipping them less than optimal.

Yes, yes, and yes. crisis suits are the new soladins of this edition. they can automatically fire at two targets, and get support systems to boot. and you can get individual weapons on them now (no need for twinlinking) and have them mc/tank/infantry hunt on the very cheap. just remember to deapstrike em as hoverring them from backfield, they will probably die. I'll pm you my crisis suit heavy list to show you what i like to do with my crisis suits.

Automatically fire at two targets? Whered you get that? Target Locks are not built in to anyone outside an HQ

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
Yes, yes, and yes. crisis suits are the new soladins of this edition. they can automatically fire at two targets, and get support systems to boot. and you can get individual weapons on them now (no need for twinlinking) and have them mc/tank/infantry hunt on the very cheap. just remember to deapstrike em as hoverring them from backfield, they will probably die. I'll pm you my crisis suit heavy list to show you what i like to do with my crisis suits.

That would be awesome.

About the RipTide...okay I know he's awesome and he's got sweet AP2 shots and large blasts or barrage etc. as well as a durable body with 2+ 5++ and possible FNP. However just looking at him the way he is and actually kitted out he usually comes up to 210 or more points! Can anyone explain to me why he's so coveted as our new awesome spam this guy model. Lists all over have 3 or 4 of this guy. I'm assuming it's more because of the versatility + durability than anything... because I know for the same amount of points I can have a Crisis Squad that is not as durable but fires A LOT more shots... Not to mention even more expensive once you start adding the usual additions like the Commander HQ or the Farseer.

Also, I'm still looking for advice on how most people equip their Crisis suits I'm thinking of Missile Pods but do you normally take 1 to keep them cheap because of their "fragile" bodies, or 2 missile pods? On my army builder it shows Missile Pods as TL as well... yet in the ranged section of my Tau book I don't see them as TL. What's up with that? Army builder is wrong?

210pts is the max out load. Hes 190 for me. Ion Accelerator and Interceptor is all you need. That second support slot is really just a point dump, since precision shots dont affect blasts and he cant take retro thrusters. only other choices are expensive and unneeded.

Hes coveted because its reliable S8 AP2 pi plate. Its not as deadly as a crisis team but unlike a crisis team it will be around the whole game unless you get unlucky as hell.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
210pts is the max out load. Hes 190 for me. Ion Accelerator and Interceptor is all you need. That second support slot is really just a point dump, since precision shots dont affect blasts and he cant take retro thrusters. only other choices are expensive and unneeded.

Hes coveted because its reliable S8 AP2 pi plate. Its not as deadly as a crisis team but unlike a crisis team it will be around the whole game unless you get unlucky as hell.

Hmm... really? I usually see the Skyfire as a big deal. Maybe because I only run 1... I have another coming in so maybe after having 2x with their insane range and Intercepter I will not need the Skyfire as badly...

Do you guys suggest making my 2nd RipTide Ion Accelerator + SMS as well for consistency and redundancy? Or do you all equip the RipTides differently?

Crisis Suits at 1 or 2 Missile Pods? I kind of have a decent grasp now with your guys help with the rest of the models. But The Crisis Suit squads still are a little confusing to me lol Not sure how much firepower I should really be investing into marine like bodies...

I bring my Riptides (all three of them) with Ion Accelerator, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Stim Injector and EWO. Comes at 225 point and it has never failed me yet. FNP is super-important IMHO because it is a 33% survivability boost against most of the stuff that can hurt your Riptides (the only exception being Jaws).

My Riptides cost 265, 250, and 235pts respectively.

HBC +VT +Stim +ECPA
IA +EWO +Stim +Talisman
HBC +VT +Stim

Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.

Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.

 syypher wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.

Interesting stuff guys! All the articles I've been reading were released when the Tau codex came out and everyone was raving about Pathfinder usage with Marker Lights. I guess that's changed over the past couple months

I'm thinking of using a Skyray so once it's unloaded I'll still have those 2 Markerlights and maybe a MarkerDrone unit. Sounds legit~


What is the optimal loadout of a Crisis suit? The wargear says I can take up to 3 weapons but I don't know if that's worth the point investment on a marine statline model... Are they worth their points? T4 3+ save... and with 2x Missile Pods, they are 57pts each. Is that even worth it anymore? Or do most people keep them with just 1x Missile Pod? Or am I equipping them less than optimal.

Most people seem to be moving away from pathfinders because they are so easy to kill and not mobile. Marker drones with a commander, often in a crisis suit team, are bs5 t4 sv4+ sometimes hiding behind sv2+ commanders. The marker drones are mobile and can jsj. They only cost 1 or 3 points more than pathfinders depending on how you by them. They seem like the best choice for mass reliable markerlights.

Firesight marksmen are rarely brought up but are also great sources of marker lights. They have bs5, markerlights and stealth for only 2 points more than pathfinders. But you must pay a 45pt task to get 3 sniper drones, which isn't horrible, but not amazing either. One trick you can do is get an ethereal with 2 marker drones and join them to the sniper team. Because the firesight marksmen have drone controllers your marker drones are bs5, so now you can get 5 bs5 markerlights out of the unit. Because of majority toughness the unit is t4 instead of t3 and gets a 3+ cover save in ruins, so they are much harder to kill than pathfinders. Sniper drones also pair nicely with an ethereal because they have pulse weapons, so they can fire 3 times at 24''.

Skyrays are very legit. They give out 2 marker light hits 44% of time time, so it is not a reliable way to strip cover but are good at boosting bs by 1 or 2. But the main thing is skyrays make taking down fliers so much easier. One markerlight hit nearly doubles a broadsides accuracy against fliers.

Skyfire on a riptide isnt as big as you think. Unless its the HBC and its super charged, youre not that likely to take a flier out unless you get lucky with double melta pen damage (which should never happen on interceptor...).

Hes only shooting 3 S7 AP2 shots that are not twinlinked. Plus a melta/plasma if in range depending on what you got. I put skyfire on mine solely if i have a random ~80 pts lying around, when i tend to do often enough anyway. 3 S7 AP2 shots are not that likely to take out majority of fliers.

I never put FNP on it because thats 35pts of another reason to not shoot at the riptide when you already dont want to. Literally every time ive taken it ive only used it against my own nova failures. Noone shoots it as it is, why would they with fnp?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Automatically fire at two targets? Whered you get that? Target Locks are not built in to anyone outside an HQ

my bad,I meant they can fire both weapons. Lol. but target lock is very cheap.

 syypher wrote:

That would be awesome.

About the RipTide...okay I know he's awesome and he's got sweet AP2 shots and large blasts or barrage etc. as well as a durable body with 2+ 5++ and possible FNP. However just looking at him the way he is and actually kitted out he usually comes up to 210 or more points! Can anyone explain to me why he's so coveted as our new awesome spam this guy model. Lists all over have 3 or 4 of this guy. I'm assuming it's more because of the versatility + durability than anything... because I know for the same amount of points I can have a Crisis Squad that is not as durable but fires A LOT more shots... Not to mention even more expensive once you start adding the usual additions like the Commander HQ or the Farseer.

Also, I'm still looking for advice on how most people equip their Crisis suits I'm thinking of Missile Pods but do you normally take 1 to keep them cheap because of their "fragile" bodies, or 2 missile pods? On my army builder it shows Missile Pods as TL as well... yet in the ranged section of my Tau book I don't see them as TL. What's up with that? Army builder is wrong?

In a standard list riptides are just tough and reliable pie plates. When you start to spam riptides you overwhelm your opponent. Imagine sitting down across from someone and all you can fire at is 4 t6 sv2+ 5++ riptides and 2 sv13 skyrays (kroot are outflanking and crisis are deepstriking/hiding). What do you do? How many of your guns are suddenly next to useless? If it is not s7+ you can't hurt the skyrays and if it doesn't have ap2 it is not hurting the riptides (it takes 54 bolter shots to do one wound to a riptide). Even if the riptides are not doing the most damage they are not taking damage either. And chances are the riptide will dish out more damage than they take. All they have to do is kill a few heavy hitting units before your crisis suits and kroot come on and then you can mop up.

 Zagman wrote:
My Riptides cost 265, 250, and 235pts respectively.

HBC +VT +Stim +ECPA
IA +EWO +Stim +Talisman
HBC +VT +Stim

Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.

Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.

Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!

My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.

Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
My Riptides cost 265, 250, and 235pts respectively.

HBC +VT +Stim +ECPA
IA +EWO +Stim +Talisman
HBC +VT +Stim

Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.

Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.

Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!

My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.

Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.

You again, I see you are continuing to troll the forums.

I never said FE Riptides or Riptides in general were bad. What I argued a month ago was that Riptides are bad at anti AV14. Which they still are. There is a reason I need to DS Target Lock dual FB suits. And the point of that thread was to design a competitive FE list without utilizing Riptides, a concept you failed to recognize. You trolled that thread for days.

As to needing an FAQ, we don't, the rules are explicitly clear. So, unless GW decides to change the rules it will still be legal. Granted, that isn't outside the realm of possibility, but currently the rules are clear.

Reps dont know what theyre talking about....

Number of models has nothing to do with whether or not an IC can join, its number of max units. Solo and only solo MCs and vehicles and a couple other oddball units (Lone Wolf i believe is one) that are always and ONLY a single model, cannot be joined by ICs period. Riptides are a unit composed of 1-3 models, so it does not fall under that category.

If it was model count, then if you went down to 1 model + the IC then the IC would be forced to leave the unit. In cases of a bikerboss + painboy that would suck royal donkeyballs lol.

The only way they could FAQ it to make it so ICs cant join them is to either add a random, stupid rule that specifically states "No IC can be joined to a Riptide unit" - or they change the wording on drones to not count as max unit counts, which would affect morale checks since now its 3 Crisis Suits instead of 3 suits + 6 drones = 9 models.

 Zagman wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
My Riptides cost 265, 250, and 235pts respectively.

HBC +VT +Stim +ECPA
IA +EWO +Stim +Talisman
HBC +VT +Stim

Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.

Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.

Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!

My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.

Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.

You again, I see you are continuing to troll the forums.

I never said FE Riptides or Riptides in general were bad. What I argued a month ago was that Riptides are bad at anti AV14. Which they still are. There is a reason I need to DS Target Lock dual FB suits. And the point of that thread was to design a competitive FE list without utilizing Riptides, a concept you failed to recognize. You trolled that thread for days.

As to needing an FAQ, we don't, the rules are explicitly clear. So, unless GW decides to change the rules it will still be legal. Granted, that isn't outside the realm of possibility, but currently the rules are clear.

I never said it was just good at anti AV14. The original argument was AV14 answer, AND a pie plate that his army did not have. I also mentioned that since he was using FE, he might as well utilize one of the BEST Signature systems that the codex offers, the ECPA. You just stuck to the AV14 thing because...well i have no idea.

The thread asked if his list was viable without using Riptides. So how is it possible that a response warranting its benefits be unwanted? Quizicaldog.jpeg.

The rules are not as clear as they should be, and even the GW rep's info is conflicting this thread's info, which is why i brought it up. That right there is more than enough of a reason for an FAQ to settle it. Which is what i'm trying to say. I don't particularly care either which way it gets settled, just that it does.

To recap the argument. The BRB pg39 says that the IC can join a MC if it does not always consist of one model. The Tau Codex states that all drones are considered squad members for all purposes, meaning that they are NOT wargear. This makes them a multi-model unit and thus an IC can join them. The question is: Does a Riptide need a drone in order to take an IC?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Reps dont know what theyre talking about....

Number of models has nothing to do with whether or not an IC can join, its number of max units. Solo and only solo MCs and vehicles and a couple other oddball units (Lone Wolf i believe is one) that are always and ONLY a single model, cannot be joined by ICs period. Riptides are a unit composed of 1-3 models, so it does not fall under that category.

If it was model count, then if you went down to 1 model + the IC then the IC would be forced to leave the unit. In cases of a bikerboss + painboy that would suck royal donkeyballs lol.

The only way they could FAQ it to make it so ICs cant join them is to either add a random, stupid rule that specifically states "No IC can be joined to a Riptide unit" - or they change the wording on drones to not count as max unit counts, which would affect morale checks since now its 3 Crisis Suits instead of 3 suits + 6 drones = 9 models.

A unit doesn't suddenly change when it loses models like that. It only matters at the start of the game, not while it's in progress.

In the last codex and the last FAQ, Shadowsun was declared to be unable to join a unit WITH her drones. She could only join a unit after losing her drones or not taking them at all. So there have been some conflicts with drones and their status in the past. I don't think its unreasonable to ask for a clarification of this particular instance with riptides and ICs.

AnonAmbientLight, you are a troll. Please stop derailing multiple threads with the same argument. Also, please look up the definition of "always", its relevant. As to our previous argument, I never said Riptides weren't good at other things, but certainly Turn 1 AV14 is not one of them. The premise of that thread was to create a competitive no riptide suits list. You never once contributed anything useful. You've continually proven you are a troll, cannot read, and don't understand basic probability. Now, you are derailing threads needlessly. I am going to ignore you, you aren't worth my time.

On topic.

Riptides. My take.

Pros:
Durable: T6, 5W, 2+/5++/3++, Possible FNP
Mobile: JSJ
IA: High Str/Low AP Large Blast, Range, EWO
HBC: Possible High Volume of Fire and Rending, VT

Cons:
BS3
Cost
Relatively Low Damage Output
IA: Poor AA option
Requires Support: Buffmander, MarkerLights, ECPA, Guide/Precience Farseer.
Reliability: Nova reactor and Gets Hot on IA Large Blast and Ordinance Large Blast


Riptides are highly mobile, durable units, but without support they often fail to deliver and often prove to have a less than desirable damage output. Most successful builds using Riptides are supporting them in some way. O'VesaStar combines an ECPA RIptide and a VT HBC Riptide with Buffmaster Support. Adding the buffmander mitigates most downsides of the Riptide short of the Nova Reactor on the HBC Riptide. Allied Eldar with Guide or Precience can make Riptides Shine. An ECPA HBC Riptide is the best unsupported Riptide Available and doesn't require support outside of Markerlights.

Unsupported Riptides excel as IA EWO 190pt Riptides. Avoid the NOVA and use Markerlights if available to negate Cover and reduce scatter on your S8/AP2 Large Blast.

Support System Options and how Riptides should utilize them

Stim Injector: Helps Mitigate failed Nova Reactor wounds and Get Hot wounds on an HBC. A Stim Riptide can attempt to Nova every turn and expect to take a wound once per game. Increases durability of Riptide by 50% against wound damage. Potential Con is it pushes opponent to target softer units, so bait them.
Velocity Tracker: Trap for the IA Riptide. Useful in conjunction with a Stim Injector on an HBC Riptide.
EWO: Auto include on an IA Riptide. An option on an ECPA/VT HBC Riptide.
Target Lock: Required in the O'Vesa Star on the second Riptide, otherwise pointless.
Positional Relay: Niche use with Outflanking Kroot.
ATS, SDS, DC: No point.

Farsight Enclave
ECPA: Auto Include on an HBC Riptide unless O'Vesa is present.
Talisman of Arthas Moloch: Hugely beneficial in reducing the threat of JotWW.

NOVA Reactor: When should you use it, and how?

Shield: When moderate to high amounts of High Strength/Low AP incoming fire is expected. Use Judiciously.
Thrust: When a late game contest is required or rapid redeployment or tactical retreat is necessary. Use only when absolutely necessary.
Ripple Fire: Use only when in TLFB Range of a hard target or when IA has Intercepted a target.
Nova IA: Use only when Ordinance is required.
Nova HBC: Every turn unless a Shield, Thrust, or Ripple Fire is Required. Best with Stim Injector or ECPA.

Short of an HBC Riptide, use the Nova Reactor judiciously, over the course of a six turn game it will deal 2 wounds to the Riptide unless either a Stim Injector or the ECPA is present. If and at all possible supported Riptides are one of the best units around capable of ridiculous feats. Unbuffed, they are still a solid choice but often fail to live up to expectations. Without support an IA Riptide will get hot 17% of the time and fail to fire is Overcharged IA, and 55% of the time it will scatter, usually 3-5". Only 28% of the time will the IA Riptide stick its target without support.

Avoid combat with your Riptide if at all possible. They stand a reasonable chance of losing combat and running from stock assault marines. If the target isn't a naked tactical squad, vehicle, or an equally inept target do no assault it.

There is my 2cents on the Riptide.

Thank you very much for that detailed reply. Its got me thinking about possibly making my second Riptide not IA anymore and choosing his other option ... hmmm. But a part of me says to do IA anyways for redundancy.

Other than markerlights and allying a farseer how can I make my IA Riptide better at shooting? I don't think the buff commander helps in this regard does it?

he does, absolutely. he can give it twin-linked or ignores cover.

 syypher wrote:
Thank you very much for that detailed reply. Its got me thinking about possibly making my second Riptide not IA anymore and choosing his other option ... hmmm. But a part of me says to do IA anyways for redundancy.

Other than markerlights and allying a farseer how can I make my IA Riptide better at shooting? I don't think the buff commander helps in this regard does it?

Magnetize that gun, dont glue it. The arm fits in the slot like a glove (pun intended) so just stick a couple small magnets in there. The pipe sticking out just needs to be glued to the gun if you even want to bother with it, it pops into the hole for me just by happenstance and looks fine. I swap the gun all the time.

Also buffmander is technically the best buff to the riptide, its just a bit pricy. The upside is he doesnt have to stay with the riptide the entire game, though he usually does. Depending on what im against, but more often than not, he starts with an HBC Riptide and picks on vehicles if he passes his nova charge, and jumps to the IA riptide if he fails it (as hes almost useless without the rending except to just kill infantry, not worth the buffmander's time).
Note: Nova charge happens at the start of the movement phase, so as long as you keep your riptides close enough where the one the buffmander wants to jump to can get within 1" you can jump groups before the shooting phase happens. HBC with buffmander bonuses and nova charge is WAY more lethal than the IA, but theres always that 1/3 chance of Nope lol. The IA is more stable, and the rerolling helps stop the Gets Hot! too.

To answer your question though, there is one more option.....but i wouldnt do it unless your buffmander is busy lol. Shadowsun with her Command and Control drone. The drone makes any unit of your choosing reroll to hits of 1, which also applies to Gets Hot! btw as the rules just say whether or not you can reroll period and no restrictions, and she doesnt even have to be in the same unit as the riptide (just 12" away....i think....might be a little shorter).
Dont get her just for that reason rofl. Shes too pricy to just give a riptide a cheap, incomplete "Preferred Enemy" buff lol (incomplete because it doesnt apply to wound rolls, Preferred Enemy normally does)

Edit: I guess technically the buffmander jumping ship if the HBC fails his nova can be used with any unit not just an IA riptide, but odds are nothing but another riptide would want to be that close lol. HBC riptides tend to put themselves in the middle of nowhere due to 36" range, but not like theyre gonna get shot out anyway.

Interesting bites there! I'm definitely taking notes!

By chance, do you take crisis suits? If you did what wargear would you choose for them?

Currently thinking about allying tau farsight. Unsure what to load them out with. But I may stick to my regular Eldar allies. Those wave serpent with DA/scoring troops of choice inside are amazing midfield beasts!

I usually have a crisis team with 2 suits having double plasmas and the third with fusions, all with target locks and gun drones. They usually do quite a bit of damage before they die, the only reason i dont run 3 of them instead of riptides is because riptides are available turn 1 and i'll most likely have them by turn 5 lol the crisis suits.....not so much. Much squishier and in charge range danger most of the time.

 Zagman wrote:
AnonAmbientLight, you are a troll. Please stop derailing multiple threads with the same argument. Also, please look up the definition of "always", its relevant. As to our previous argument, I never said Riptides weren't good at other things, but certainly Turn 1 AV14 is not one of them. The premise of that thread was to create a competitive no riptide suits list. You never once contributed anything useful. You've continually proven you are a troll, cannot read, and don't understand basic probability. Now, you are derailing threads needlessly. I am going to ignore you, you aren't worth my time.

You are so full of it. Please stop calling me something i am not. It is relevant to at least bring it up about the Riptide and it's MC status. I never said that you COULDN'T take a Riptide without a drone, i just said that it should be FAQd for clarification, citing multiple sources.

The previous argument was you going balls to the wall holding on to the fact that a Riptide is poo dick against AV14 when MULTIPLE TIMES through the thread i pointed out ALL THE OTHER things it could do and why it should be considered.

And please, I CANT READ? melon-fether, i had to fething SHOVE the Gets Hot rule down your fething face after i presented the ENTIRE rule to you, not just as interpretation, but COPY fething PASTE about three times before you finally stopped being a complete cock about it.

It's really no surprise to me that you can't read, and no surprise at all that you would flip-flop on the Riptide.

NOW i'm derailing this thread you fething man-child.

I especially like how you ended your little temper tantrum by calling the other guy a child. Smooth.