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 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
And considering page 7 of BRB: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where is occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." I'd have to say, right now, that the missiles snapshot at bs5.

Where is the conflict? There is no rules that Seekers make snap shots at BS5 - only that they're fired at BS5. Snap Shot says that they must resolve at Bs1.

Except the rules say that snapshot are treated as bs1 and seeker missiles are resolved as bs5.

And FAQ trumps Codex:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Unless Seeker Missiles specifically say it's BS5 for Snap Shots, it isn't (and it doesn't).

Which does not apply, we are not modifying the BS1, we are resolving an attack at a different BS.

Modifying would be +/- 1 or more, Doubling, halving, or setting the value. You are doing none of these, you are resolving an attack at a set value(you are still being treated as BS 1). The same would be true for a Stalker using the split-fire profile against non-skimmer/flyer/FMC targets; it must snapshot and therefore is treated as BS1, but the shots are resolved at BS2 via the rule.

You're still Snap firing, and therefore those shots must be resolved at BS1 without a specific exception. It's not the models BS that is changed to 1, it's the BS the shots are resolved at. You're using a BS other than 1 to resolve a Snap Shot, which breaks the rule and FAQ.
Stalker is most definitley at BS1, even with Split fire. That rules does not get around the fact it's Snap Shooting.
Compare the wordings of the abilites mentioned in the above FAQ.

Then you're failing to understand how conflicts are generated.
There isn't one there. A conflict would be "Seekers are resolved at BS5 even when firing snap shots".

You are not setting a value; your BS remains the Same treated as 1; resolving the attack at a different BS does not change the BS you are treated as having.

Grendel; that is not what Snapshots say. Snapshots change the firers BS for those shots.

Let's absolutely compare the wordings of the examples:

Signum: "... one model in his squad has BS5 for the remainder of the shooting phase." Hey look the Signum is a modifier, the FAQ answer applies exactly to it, it attempts to modify the BS of the model to a set value(a Modifier, and dissallowed).

Sgt Tellion: "That model can use Tellion's Ballistic Skill this phase." Again a Modifier to the models BS, his bs is set to the same as Tellion, thus a modifier, thus dissallowed.

Resolving a shot at a specific BS never changes the Models BS and is thus not a Modifier.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Resolving a shot at a specific BS never changes the Models BS and is thus not a Modifier.

For the purpose of that shot it absolutely is a modifier. You're setting it to BS5 for that shot.

 grendel083 wrote:
You're still Snap firing, and therefore those shots must be resolved at BS1 without a specific exception. It's not the models BS that is changed to 1, it's the BS the shots are resolved at. You're using a BS other than 1 to resolve a Snap Shot, which breaks the rule and FAQ.
Stalker is most definitley at BS1, even with Split fire. That rules does not get around the fact it's Snap Shooting.
Compare the wordings of the abilites mentioned in the above FAQ.

Snap Shots:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

This says to me that my tank is shaken so it can only snap shot. If I choose to shoot with my tank, it, the model, is counted as being bs1.

Seeker:
"For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
-[...]
-Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5
-[...]"

Now I choose to fire a seeker missile from my tank, the unit. I already said that my tank is Snap Shot-ing and is counted as being bs1 for the shooting. But, the seeker rule says that the missile doesn't care what the bs of the unit is; it explicitly says that the seeker missile is resolved at bs5.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Resolving a shot at a specific BS never changes the Models BS and is thus not a Modifier.

For the purpose of that shot it absolutely is a modifier. You're setting it to BS5 for that shot.

No you are resolving that shot at BS5(or whatever); we know exactly what a Modifier is, those rules and definition are in the BRB(Page 2); A modifier is a change in the model's characteristic.

That is not happening here, the Model's BS is unchanged(or not further changed from Snap shots), it is just that making the shooting attacks you resolve those shots with a different BS from that of the model.

Take, for example, a Stalker with a Storm Bolter. It selects the double targeting a chooses 2 flyers as the targets. It then resolves the 2 Stormcannon attacks at BS 2 and the Storm bolter shots with the modified BS1.

The seeker missile is fired at BS5 not because it overrides snapshots, but because the seeker missile is fired by the unit who expended the markerlight.

If it was the devilfish who expended the markerlight then I think it would be a snapshot. However, if a firewarrior expended the markerlight to fire the seeker missile, it is at BS5.

 Nilok wrote:
The seeker missile is fired at BS5 not because it overrides snapshots, but because the seeker missile is fired by the unit who expended the markerlight.

If it was the devilfish who expended the markerlight then I think it would be a snapshot. However, if a firewarrior expended the markerlight to fire the seeker missile, it is at BS5.

iirc the new Tau codex says that the unit possessing the Seeker fires it

The only way around being BS1 on your seeker missile shot, is to have other markerlights on the target and expend those to increase the BS of the seeker missile shot after it's reduced to 1 by the snapfire rule. It works fine if you do it that way, just requires more markerlights.

They are right about the snapfire BS1 overriding any other set modifier. But the markerlight rules specifically allow you to override the snapfire BS. So do it.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:


Multiple FAQ's have come forth and shown that snap shots are a specific rule that always over-writes any 'set to' or 'resolve at' rule-sets.

Not that it is applicable anymore, but the old Tau faq said that a vehicle could snapshot a missile at bs5 (other than shooting a flyer), which did set a precedent.

And considering page 7 of BRB: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where is occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." I'd have to say, right now, that the missiles snapshot at bs5.

The old FAQ said the exact opposite actually

 davou wrote:

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:


Multiple FAQ's have come forth and shown that snap shots are a specific rule that always over-writes any 'set to' or 'resolve at' rule-sets.

Not that it is applicable anymore, but the old Tau faq said that a vehicle could snapshot a missile at bs5 (other than shooting a flyer), which did set a precedent.

And considering page 7 of BRB: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where is occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." I'd have to say, right now, that the missiles snapshot at bs5.

The old FAQ said the exact opposite actually

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5?
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
The seeker missile is fired at BS5 not because it overrides snapshots, but because the seeker missile is fired by the unit who expended the markerlight.

If it was the devilfish who expended the markerlight then I think it would be a snapshot. However, if a firewarrior expended the markerlight to fire the seeker missile, it is at BS5.

iirc the new Tau codex says that the unit possessing the Seeker fires it

Actually the exact opposite.

Target Acquired (excerpt p68)

Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below.

Seeker (excerpt p68)

For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile

The unit in question, is the unit which is using the Target Acquired special rule before their shooting phase as illustrated by my first quote. The second quote explains who is firing the seeker missile, in this case, the unit using the Target Acquired ability.

If however, you still feel that when it says 'the unit' it is referring to the unit that has the seeker missile, it is the unit itself firing the missile and not a model. I have no idea if this weird interaction was intended, however, since only models can fire snap shot and units can not (pg13), the RAW would be that a seeker missile could never be snap shot. Which means only a Skyray could hit a flyer with the Seeker special rule since it has skyfire.

How can the unit fire a seeker missile if it does not have one?

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:

 davou wrote:

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:


Multiple FAQ's have come forth and shown that snap shots are a specific rule that always over-writes any 'set to' or 'resolve at' rule-sets.

Not that it is applicable anymore, but the old Tau faq said that a vehicle could snapshot a missile at bs5 (other than shooting a flyer), which did set a precedent.

And considering page 7 of BRB: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where is occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." I'd have to say, right now, that the missiles snapshot at bs5.

The old FAQ said the exact opposite actually

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5?
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Ah sorry my bad, I read what you said as 'when shooting at a flyer' not 'other than'

rigeld2 wrote:
How can the unit fire a seeker missile if it does not have one?

Because he missed off "(if it has one)"

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
How can the unit fire a seeker missile if it does not have one?

Because he missed off "(if it has one)"

Ah. Misquoting rules to prove a point. That's not very nice.