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whembly wrote: Hey... *I* didn't say that... fething Press Secretary Jay Carney did... you know... the dude that speaks for the Obama Administration?
No, you said it, or at least you repeated unquestioningly the title of your link 'Obamacare Will Drive 2.5 Million Americans Out of the Workforce'.
And then we compare that to Carney's comment, ' individuals will be empowered to make choices about their own lives and livelihoods'.
And then I have to point out to you that I already clearly explained the difference between losing a job (being driven out) and choosing to leave a job (empowered to make choices).
Now, leaving aside whether such an option is a good thing or not, the simple fact remains that there is a clear difference between losing a job and choosing to leave a job, and its a difference you continue to ignore. Just, please, be honest in what you put up for debate. This thing you guys are doing is just so much nonsense.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Sebster, the evidence has been shown above. By numerous sources, and from a variety of perspectives. You can continue to do what you do best and distract and obfuscate about "echo chambers", "paid actors working for the Koch Brothers" (ignoring the many people who were ACA cheerleaders before realizing that they lost out), and any other variety of dancing around the point. You did this in our prior discussion about the religious objections, except with a lot more invective thrown in. You can ignore it all you want while wailing about others not bowing to your viewpoint.
It is clear that you never will, and never had the intention to, look objectively at the facts. Your absolute scatter shot approach to ignoring evidence and slinging as much unsubstantiated mud as you possibly can shows this.
The launch of the ACA has been a disaster. People who were happy with their plans found out that they could not keep them in spite of all promises to the contrary. Having to unilaterally defer parts of it so a party can limp through an election should speak volumes. Lauding sign up figures that are still below estimates for something that is almost mandatory is scraping the barrel, had this act been everything that was promised we would have seen huge buy in. Especially for those people with pre-existing conditions. We have not had that happen. If anything can be salvaged from it remains to be seen.
And we still don't even know how many people have actually paid for new plans. We just know the numbers for people who have "signed up". Which in the end really means nothing.
djones520 wrote: And we still don't even know how many people have actually paid for new plans. We just know the numbers for people who have "signed up". Which in the end really means nothing.
The numbers I'm hearing is 1 in 5 didn't make their first payment on the Exchange plans.
WASHINGTON — One in five people who signed up for health insurance under the new health care law failed to pay their premiums on time and therefore did not receive coverage in January, insurance companies and industry experts say.
Paying the first month’s premium is the final step in completing an enrollment. Under federal rules, people must pay the initial premium to have coverage take effect. In view of the chaotic debut of the federal marketplace and many state exchanges, the White House urged insurers to give people more time, and many agreed to do so. But, insurers said, some people missed even the extended deadlines.
Lindy Wagner, a spokeswoman for Blue Shield of California, said that 80 percent of those who signed up for its plans had paid by the due date, Jan. 15. Blue Shield has about 30 percent of the exchange market in the state.
RELATED COVERAGE
Jesica Arias, a program coordinator, helped an insurance applicant last month at an AltaMed Resource Center in East Los Angeles.States Struggle to Add Latinos to Health RollsFEB. 13, 2014 David Bransfield, right, of the group Young Invincibles, and Dr. Christopher Riley of Assist DC, worked to sign up students for health care at the University of the District of Columbia.Over 1 Million Added to Rolls of Health PlanFEB. 12, 2014 Matthew N. Wiggin, a spokesman for Aetna, said that about 70 percent of people who signed up for its health plans paid their premiums. For Aetna policies taking effect on Jan. 1, the deadline for payment was Jan. 14, and for products sold by Coventry Health Care, which is now part of Aetna, the deadline was Jan. 17.
Mark T. Bertolini, the chief executive of Aetna, said last week that the company had 135,000 “paid members,” out of 200,000 who began to enroll through the exchanges. “I think people are enrolling in multiple places,” he said in a conference call. “They are shopping. And what happens is that they never really get back on HealthCare.gov to disenroll from plans they prior enrolled in.”
Kristin E. Binns, a vice president of WellPoint, said that 76 percent of people selecting its health plans on an exchange had paid their share of the first month’s premium by the due date of Jan. 31. The company had received more than 500,000 applications for individual coverage through the exchanges in 14 states, she said.
Julie Bataille, a spokeswoman for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which runs the federal exchange and supervises state marketplaces, said the government did not know how many people had paid their premiums and thus “effectuated” coverage. But in interviews and in the quarterly reports on their financial performance, insurers provided data indicating that four-fifths of applicants had met payment deadlines.
One big company, Humana, said it had received 200,000 applications for insurance through the exchanges. “About 75 percent of the people paid, and 25 percent did not pay,” said Thomas T. Noland Jr., a senior vice president there. Customers had until Jan. 31 to pay for coverage that took effect on Jan. 1.
Greg Thompson, a spokesman for the Health Care Service Corporation, which offers Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans in Illinois, Texas and three other states, said that “around 80 percent” of people choosing those plans had paid their first month’s premium by the Jan. 30 due date.
Local and regional health plans are sometimes more effective in contacting consumers.
Elizabeth A. W. Williams, spokeswoman for Independence Blue Cross, in Philadelphia, said the company had extended the payment deadline to Jan. 28, then extended it again to Feb. 15 and made many phone calls urging people to pay.
“As a result,” Ms. Williams said, “we have received payment from 84 percent of our customers who purchased Independence Blue Cross health plans on HealthCare.gov — 84 percent of the 27,528 people who enrolled through the federal marketplace in Independence Blue Cross health plans with coverage effective Jan. 1.”
Scott Keefer, a vice president of Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Minnesota, said that 95 percent of people who signed up for coverage starting on Jan. 1 had paid premiums by the deadline of Jan. 10. The company, he said, made aggressive efforts to contact consumers and remind them that they needed to pay.
That effort was feasible, he said, because the Minnesota exchange’s website had problems that kept enrollment well below expectations. The federal government reported this week that fewer than 30,000 people had signed up for private health plans on the Minnesota exchange from October through January. Blue Cross and Blue Shield had one-quarter of the market.
People could have many reasons for not paying their premiums. Some decided they did not want a health plan for which they had applied. Some never received an invoice from the insurance company, or received it late. In addition, phone lines of some health plans were overwhelmed.
Obama administration officials said they did not know how many people signing up for coverage had paid their premiums because the government had not finished building the “back end” of the computer systems needed to pay insurers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 21:51:15
I think you got that backward Whembly. It's saying 4 in 5 made the payment, not 1 in 5.
But, that story does highlight another PPACA level of incompetence. 5 months after launch, and they still haven't built the system to track that stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 21:47:04
I guess that the NY Times piece was written by one of the "true believers in ACAWILLFAIL, to try and dream away the enrolment numbers."
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djones520 wrote: I think you got that backward Whembly. It's saying 4 in 5 made the payment, not 1 in 5.
But, that story does highlight another PPACA level of incompetence. 5 months after launch, and they still haven't built the system to track that stuff.
That isn't how it is meant to work. This is an echo chamber. Anything that paints the ACA in a negative light must be accepted without examination
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 22:03:48
But going with that, I believe I saw it reported that 3.3 million had signed up. So if only 80% has paid (and now has insurance), then the real number is only 2.6 million.
Seven Eight non-pro ACA comments in a row. Super Echo Chamber status achieved
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 22:14:03
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
There goes her election.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
"For all of you people who can't find a job, this was our answer. We're going to make it so other people can quit the job they don't like and then you can take it."
djones520 wrote: "For all of you people who can't find a job, this was our answer. We're going to make it so other people can quit the job they don't like and then you can take it."
Imagine how much time people will have to look for more jobs! The problem solves itself
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
djones520 wrote: "For all of you people who can't find a job, this was our answer. We're going to make it so other people can quit the job they don't like and then you can take it."
In a nutshell, all of this consolidation is quickly yielding more and more power/influence for already-powerful hospitals in determining prices, which in turn is likely to result in less competition and still higher prices for consumers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 23:06:38
whembly wrote: FWIW, I still don't understand how the CBO, or anyone else, can project that.
That is literally the job of economic forecasters, it is what the entire profession consists of. They study the impact of incentive effects on the economy in the past, and from that build a model giving the impact of future incentive effects.
The models are, of course, far from having 100% predictive power, but they're generally pretty good, and certainly the best guess available.
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Sebster, the evidence has been shown above. By numerous sources, and from a variety of perspectives. You can continue to do what you do best and distract and obfuscate about "echo chambers", "paid actors working for the Koch Brothers" (ignoring the many people who were ACA cheerleaders before realizing that they lost out), and any other variety of dancing around the point. You did this in our prior discussion about the religious objections, except with a lot more invective thrown in. You can ignore it all you want while wailing about others not bowing to your viewpoint.
It is clear that you never will, and never had the intention to, look objectively at the facts. Your absolute scatter shot approach to ignoring evidence and slinging as much unsubstantiated mud as you possibly can shows this.
The launch of the ACA has been a disaster. People who were happy with their plans found out that they could not keep them in spite of all promises to the contrary. Having to unilaterally defer parts of it so a party can limp through an election should speak volumes. Lauding sign up figures that are still below estimates for something that is almost mandatory is scraping the barrel, had this act been everything that was promised we would have seen huge buy in. Especially for those people with pre-existing conditions. We have not had that happen. If anything can be salvaged from it remains to be seen.
Yeah, that's constructive dialogue. Just stop the conversation dead and go back to claiming all the stuff you were claiming at the start. Total fething waste of time.
Anyhow, feth it, me typing away on a keyboard isn't going to teach you the importance of actually fething thinking about things. So you just carry on, true believing your way along, and I can just hope that at some point you'll get something really fething wrong at a time in your life when you're actually willing to question what you had previously refused to question.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/17 02:33:38
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote: Yeah, that's constructive dialogue. Just stop the conversation dead and go back to claiming all the stuff you were claiming at the start. Total fething waste of time.
Anyhow, feth it, me typing away on a keyboard isn't going to teach you the importance of actually fething thinking about things. So you just carry on, true believing your way along, and I can just hope that at some point you'll get something really fething wrong at a time in your life when you're actually willing to question what you had previously refused to question.
There is a true believer here Sebster. But it isn't me. I've shown links and evidence to substantiate my position that as it presently stands the ACA is a terrible piece of legislation. You've rejected everything that doesn't fit with your beliefs without offering up any evidence to support your position. Once you start addressing actual arguments instead of avoiding them on this topic then we can have a constructive dialogue and I will not have to restate the points because you're too busy trying to distract with claims of "echo chambers" and the evil "Koch Brothers". Perhaps you'll even learn to keep a civil tongue in your head and not spew profanity.
If the ACA does everything that it is meant to do then I'll revisit my position. At no point did I ever refuse to. However, given the current facts it would seem that there is a lot to support my current assessment as it stands.
sebster wrote: Yeah, that's constructive dialogue. Just stop the conversation dead and go back to claiming all the stuff you were claiming at the start. Total fething waste of time.
Anyhow, feth it, me typing away on a keyboard isn't going to teach you the importance of actually fething thinking about things. So you just carry on, true believing your way along, and I can just hope that at some point you'll get something really fething wrong at a time in your life when you're actually willing to question what you had previously refused to question.
There is a true believer here Sebster. But it isn't me. I've shown links and evidence to substantiate my position that as it presently stands the ACA is a terrible piece of legislation. You've rejected everything that doesn't fit with your beliefs without offering up any evidence to support your position. Once you start addressing actual arguments instead of avoiding them on this topic then we can have a constructive dialogue and I will not have to restate the points because you're too busy trying to distract with claims of "echo chambers" and the evil "Koch Brothers". Perhaps you'll even learn to keep a civil tongue in your head and not spew profanity.
If the ACA does everything that it is meant to do then I'll revisit my position. At no point did I ever refuse to. However, given the current facts it would seem that there is a lot to support my current assessment as it stands.
Any discussion of the Koch brothers is not complete unless Soros is also talked about. Obama wasn't shy about taking his money and help.
Relapse wrote: Any discussion of the Koch brothers is not complete unless Soros is also talked about. Obama wasn't shy about taking his money and help.
There's big money thrown around on both sides of politics? No kidding.
But this is a specific issue - the ads run by the Koch brothers in Louisiana, using actors pretending to receive mail cancelling their insurance. If Soros is running ads with paid actors pretending to be happy about their insurance, then by all means start complaining.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 02:38:30
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
And who can forget that ad showing Ryan throwing Grandma off the cliff:
What I find funny is that the creator of this ad, The Agenda Project, has stated on it's website that says the group's goal is to "build a powerful, intelligent, well-connected political movement capable of identifying and advancing rational, effective ideas in the public debate and in so doing ensure our country’s enduring success."
Relapse wrote: Of course you had ads about Romney causing cancer deaths. But that's okay since it's Obama's campaign under Soros guidance putting them out there.
Huh? Are we debating that only Republicans have ever put out sleazy ads? The point was that, right now, there is an ad playing in Louisiana in which paid actors are pretending to lose health coverage. Nothing wrong with that, except that having to use paid actors should tell you something, especially when its combined with the constant debunking of stories that the right has put up about individuals.
And what does Soros have to do with that ad? That came straight from Obama's PAC.
I mean, correct me where I'm wrong, but I mentioned the Koch brothers running a dodgy ad in Louisiana about ACA, and you respond with 'yeah there was a Democrat ad as well that Obama ran during his campaign, and also George Soros is someone I'm mentioning'.
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whembly wrote: What I find funny is that the creator of this ad, The Agenda Project, has stated on it's website that says the group's goal is to "build a powerful, intelligent, well-connected political movement capable of identifying and advancing rational, effective ideas in the public debate and in so doing ensure our country’s enduring success."
Did you honestly expect anything different after reading that description? Anyone that comes out promising rational ideas is destined to give us the exact opposite
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 07:51:22
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
A California bill would extend health coverage to undocumented immigrants, using an Obamacare-style program to assist those left uncovered by the health care reform law.
Kaiser Health News reported that the legislation, introduced by state Sen. Ricardo Lara, a Democrat, would use state dollars to pay for Medicaid coverage for low-income residents who are in the state illegally. No federal funding would be used.
It would also establish an online marketplace where undocumented immigrants with higher incomes could buy private insurance.
Up to 2.6 million undocumented immigrants live in California, where they can currently receive emergency medical care and pregnancy care. About 1 million of them are estimated to be uninsured, according to KHN.
“While we’ve made enormous strides to reduce California’s uninsured population with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act, we won’t have a truly healthy state until everyone has access to quality, affordable coverage,” Lara said in a statement.
Anti-illegal immigration groups blasted the bill, which attracted 16 co-sponsors in the state senate, KHN reported.
“There isn’t anything [the California legislature] is not going to give people who are in the country illegally," said, Ira Mehlman, spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
California... you cray-cray.
You're incentivizing immigrants to break the law. o.O
You're incentivizing immigrants to break the law. o.O
Not just California. If this Administration gets it's wish on immigration reform then illegal immigrants will be given rights above and beyond legal migrants.
Not just California. If this Administration gets it's wish on immigration reform then illegal immigrants will be given rights above and beyond legal migrants.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its still giving healthcare to illegals.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Its still giving tax payer funded healthcare to illegals.
Fixed that for you.
The original is fine
jk
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
