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Since Farsight Enclave is out now, a lot of people are doing the Commander Buff-o-Matic with Farsight (to unlock O'Vessa) and joining them all to another Riptide with Split Fire (Target Lock?) so that 2 Riptides can get re-rolls, a nifty USR (Tank Hunter/MC Hunter anyone?) and Ignores Cover. A list with this set-up won the Nova but that could just have been due to the missions/format and meta out there.

None the less, what do people think of this combo? Is it an auto-include for a Farsight/Tau army? Is it overrated?

The combination is good, no doubt about that, but I think the reason it did so well is because no one was expecting it. I am not a tournament player but I scour the internet for all things tau and I only heard about it once when the supplement came out (it was dismissed because everyone said ICs couldn't join riptides) and I heard about it a few days before the Nova when we knew IC could join riptides. I am sure even the best tournament players at the Nova had no clue that Tau could join riptides like that. So this was their first time seeing it and they probably didn't know how to deal with it or play around it. When I am playing against someone I have a reasonable understanding of how the units work, what I need to kill, and how I need to kill it. When a list like this comes out I am not sure what the right answer is. Do you ignore the riptide group and focus on lone riptides? Do you try to assault the riptide group? Do you blitz around trying to take out crisis suits? Until you have had enough practice you don't know for sure what is the best option and you could lose because of it. Not only that but had you expected a unit like this you may have build a list with more plasma/melta and less infantry based options.

Now that we have seen the combo we can build to fight it or play around it. But this is like any spam list, you just don't have enough of the right type of gun to beat it unless you build to beat it. My tau right now has missiles coming out left and right to deal with flyers, wave serpents, light transports, xeno troops, etc. I would not be ready to fight a riptide bomb, but adding more plasma would mean all my other match-ups would be weakened. So finding the balance is what you need to do.

I honestly don't see how anyone was surprised with the IC joining Riptides. The rules are so clear cut and obvious that it really is not a rules issue. It probably was more along the lines of "that seems wrong/op/messed up so it shouldn't be allowed" but RAW IC joining Riptide is totally legal.

In case anyone want's to argue the RAW, Riptides DO NOT ALWAYS consist of a single model, therefore they can be joined by ICs as per RAW.

Anyway, I agree with your point about having a list to deal with as many threats as possible. Ultimately, that is how I try to build my lists-balanced with the right tool for every job.

Still, it does seem pretty harsh to have 2 potentially BS5 S8 Ap2 large blasts that ignore cover coming your way!

It is strong certainly, but serpent spam can easily crush it as riptides have to get very close to reliably damage it, whereas serpents can just dump wound after wound into the unit and kill it, especially if like jy2's mechdar, it has wraithknights to support. And I can assure serpents are much more TAC than O'Vesa and pals.

I disagree, my heavy burst cannon riptide can easily kill a wave serpend, with ignore cover and the nova reactor, i can place 2 or more glancing shots around, more if it has tank hunter. The ion riptide will require more rounds but a riptide will beat 2 serpents easy. shooting with your shields means that i can pen you after and 2+ armour means it has to take 30-36 wounds before it will go down. I am more worried about guardians with my riptides than about wave serpents.

 Krellnus wrote:
It is strong certainly, but serpent spam can easily crush it as riptides have to get very close to reliably damage it, whereas serpents can just dump wound after wound into the unit and kill it, especially if like jy2's mechdar, it has wraithknights to support. And I can assure serpents are much more TAC than O'Vesa and pals.

Riptides can take out Serpents, however, Serpents have a 60" range and can therefore out-range a 36" Riptide. This means that any Heavy Burst Cannon Riptide may be killed before it can strike.

None the less, if the Riptides Deepstrike, that may throw a wrench into Eldar army plans or at the very least, O'Vessa can tank along with a 2+ save Buff-o-Matic commander and spread the wounds around so the unit itself becomes rather tanky =/.

5 Wounds from O'Vessa, 5 from other Riptide, 4 From T5 2+ Commander and 4 from Farsight plus any drones that are purchased.

I doubt it will fare any better that the Farsight/shadowsun bomb. seen them both run,and it is safe to say you are better dumping your points elsewhere. also regardless of the fact ovesa/shadowsun is a tanky unit, you are better off not taking wounds in the first place ( MOAR gun drones, anyone?).

 mortetvie wrote:
Riptides can take out Serpents, however, Serpents have a 60" range and can therefore out-range a 36" Riptide. This means that any Heavy Burst Cannon Riptide may be killed before it can strike.
.

Only the serpent shield has 60'' range, scatter lasers are still 36". If you are using serpent shield only to shoot my riptide, I am winning. The shield alone will do on average .15 wounds if you roll a 1, .30 wounds if you roll a 3 and .52 wounds if you roll a 6. Assuming 4 hits with the serpent shield are standard and you are running 6 wave serpents, it will take 4 turns before of shooting before the group takes its first casualty. After that you have another turn or so to kill off the drones and then another turn to kill of the riptides and commanders. So you can spend 6 turns killing the bomb but you do nothing else.

Well two things.

It might be FAQ'd later that riptides can not be joined by IC. I called in to GW the other day asking about riptides getting joined by IC, and the rep i talked to said specifically that the riptide MUST purchase a drone to become a multi-model unit as per the rules.

Secondly, i feel like that Divergent Destiny and the special signature systems of the farsight army are army wide restrictions, even for allies. That is something that might need to be FAQd IMO. At least, it's not very clear to this Shas'la.

Edit: Also keep in mind, Farsight MUST be present and MUST be your warlord in order to use one of the special IC he can get. That's a lot of points for one unit.

It's the strongest unit in the game at the moment. The only downside is you have to ally with tau.

One of the dramatic downsides is that JoTWW will literally remove 600 points per use.

 mortetvie wrote:
Since Farsight Enclave is out now, a lot of people are doing the Commander Buff-o-Matic with Farsight (to unlock O'Vessa) and joining them all to another Riptide with Split Fire (Target Lock?) so that 2 Riptides can get re-rolls, a nifty USR (Tank Hunter/MC Hunter anyone?) and Ignores Cover. A list with this set-up won the Nova but that could just have been due to the missions/format and meta out there.

None the less, what do people think of this combo? Is it an auto-include for a Farsight/Tau army? Is it overrated?

I think it's a strong combo but that Grav weapons are seriously going to put a damper on it.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
One of the dramatic downsides is that JoTWW will literally remove 600 points per use.

Unlikely with the Talisman giving 4d6 DTW. Also would have to arrange the squad poorly to let both Riptides get hit like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Since Farsight Enclave is out now, a lot of people are doing the Commander Buff-o-Matic with Farsight (to unlock O'Vessa) and joining them all to another Riptide with Split Fire (Target Lock?) so that 2 Riptides can get re-rolls, a nifty USR (Tank Hunter/MC Hunter anyone?) and Ignores Cover. A list with this set-up won the Nova but that could just have been due to the missions/format and meta out there.

None the less, what do people think of this combo? Is it an auto-include for a Farsight/Tau army? Is it overrated?

I think it's a strong combo but that Grav weapons are seriously going to put a damper on it.

I think you overestimate the effect that Grav weapons will have on a Riptide. Riptides can still purchase FNP (i'm a fan, it helps protect from Nova'n and gives you more dice rolls vs AP2) and then have the option to nova for the 3++, that is a very tough unit to get through and it's return fire is likely to wipe out a squad (depending on army composition). Tau players can also buy a Skyshield to protect from Grav alpha strikes, you can infiltrate your Kroot to block first turn shots, etc, etc.

Vs. the O'vesa Star, 6 Bike squads with 2 Grav/1 Combi, will do ~6 wounds to O'vesa with his 3++ and FNP. I'd hardly call that putting a damper on it. I think you'd be unlikely to shoot more than 2-3 units at it at a time, due to the other threats in the list and the O'vesa star's better range and deceptive mobility.

Grav weapons are a good tool, i'm with you there. But I hardly believe that they will make Riptides, or even Wraithknights obsolete and certainly not this particular combination.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
It might be FAQ'd later that riptides can not be joined by IC. I called in to GW the other day asking about riptides getting joined by IC, and the rep i talked to said specifically that the riptide MUST purchase a drone to become a multi-model unit as per the rules.

Actually they don't according to RAW.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
It might be FAQ'd later that riptides can not be joined by IC. I called in to GW the other day asking about riptides getting joined by IC, and the rep i talked to said specifically that the riptide MUST purchase a drone to become a multi-model unit as per the rules.

Regardless of whether you actually called, or whether or not the rep knows what he's talking about or even is any sort of authority on the matter, that's not what the rules say. Independent characters can join units, with two exceptions; vehicles, and units that always consist of one model. A Riptide is neither of the two.

Thud wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
It might be FAQ'd later that riptides can not be joined by IC. I called in to GW the other day asking about riptides getting joined by IC, and the rep i talked to said specifically that the riptide MUST purchase a drone to become a multi-model unit as per the rules.

Regardless of whether you actually called, or whether or not the rep knows what he's talking about or even is any sort of authority on the matter, that's not what the rules say. Independent characters can join units, with two exceptions; vehicles, and units that always consist of one model. A Riptide is neither of the two.

Right, but the issue lies with pg 33 of the Tau codex that says that drones are considered squad members for all purposes. Thus, when you purchase at least one drone, the Riptide unit becomes a multi-model unit of 2 to a max of 3. That is why the Riptide can be joined by a IC RAW. Codex > BRB.

I know that it's just the GW rep's interpretation and i asked him about that. Ultimately, we'll need a FAQ (there's a lot of FAQs really) to settle all the Tau questions, which is why i also sent in an FAQ.

Edit: BTW, it's super easy to call in to ask questions. Didn't take long at all and it was free. Granted, again you're still getting a GW rep who interprets it as best he knows it. He seemed very knowledgeable about the rules and didn't even have to tell me to hold so he could look them up. He said that they play games in the office and are in touch with the developers and other GW employees. Again, it's no FAQ by an means, but it's something.

There won't be a FAQ. A ruling against ICs joining riptides would be 100% against what's written in the BRB, and screw up similar units in half a dozen codexes.

I would stop spreading your rumor.

Players get responses daily from these help lines that end up being totally incorrect. There's no reason for a nameless CSR to have inside information on upcoming rules changes, nor have permission to discuss them if they did.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
There won't be a FAQ. A ruling against ICs joining riptides would be 100% against what's written in the BRB, and screw up similar units in half a dozen codexes.

I would stop spreading your rumor.

Players get responses daily from these help lines that end up being totally incorrect. There's no reason for a nameless CSR to have inside information on upcoming rules changes, nor have permission to discuss them if they did.

I don't think you understand what the phrase "Frequently Asked Questions" actually mean. If you look at the current Tau FAQ, you'll notice an explanation on the crisis suits and their weapons. Is that not a clarification to the rules and not a rewrite?

The BRB rule book, surprise surprise, has occasionally crappy explanations to the rules. Familiarize yourself with the BRB pg 39 and the Tau Empire: Codex pg 33. Without that Tau codex section, it would literally make IC unable to join Riptides at all. However, the Riptide unit itself, SOMETIMES consists of multiple units, which allows the IC to join it. Does that mean you have to have at least one drone with the riptide in that unit in order to take IC, or not?

The RAW do not satisfy the question, hence the FAQ to solve it one way or the other.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
There won't be a FAQ. A ruling against ICs joining riptides would be 100% against what's written in the BRB, and screw up similar units in half a dozen codexes.

I would stop spreading your rumor.

Players get responses daily from these help lines that end up being totally incorrect. There's no reason for a nameless CSR to have inside information on upcoming rules changes, nor have permission to discuss them if they did.

I don't think you understand what the phrase "Frequently Asked Questions" actually mean. If you look at the current Tau FAQ, you'll notice an explanation on the crisis suits and their weapons. Is that not a clarification to the rules and not a rewrite?

The BRB rule book, surprise surprise, has occasionally crappy explanations to the rules. Familiarize yourself with the BRB pg 39 and the Tau Empire: Codex pg 33. Without that Tau codex section, it would literally make IC unable to join Riptides at all. However, the Riptide unit itself, SOMETIMES consists of multiple units, which allows the IC to join it. Does that mean you have to have at least one drone with the riptide in that unit in order to take IC, or not?

The RAW do not satisfy the question, hence the FAQ to solve it one way or the other.

RAW absolutely satisfies the question. The rules for ICs joining units never a single model have been the same for 5th and 6Th edition. It's literally the same situation as a carnifex or necron spyder that was purchased individually yet had the option of being more. They haven't FAQd it in 2 editions with the same text, they have no reason to even address it.

If you take a riptide alone on Tuesday, and take a riptide with drones on Wednesday, it literally meets the requirement of being a unit that doesn't always consist of a single model.

Anyways we're derailing the thread. Make a YMDC thread if you still don't believe me, you'll find the support of ICs joining riptides is nearly unanimous.

On topic: I actually really like the o'vesa star, and think it would be fun to play with. However my personal aversion to spam would have me design the list with the o'vesa star and no additional riptides and a more solid scoring core. I'd even run the o'vesa star with eldar allies for a couple serpents, wraithknight, and farseer.

The rules don't require that the Riptide sometimes consists of a single model and sometimes consists of more than one model.

The rules require, as a restriction to an IC joining a unit, that said unit always consists of one model or is a vehicle squadron.

Ah... however, (I have checked the rulebook/tau FAQ) this also means by extension that I can get my fireblade to join my stock-loaded Skyray.... Or is the distinction between 'wargear' drones (They are simply wargear with a profile) and 'upgrade/Options' drones (then refer to p33 of the codex). Thoughts? I must be late to this part of the party. '

 hyv3mynd wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
There won't be a FAQ. A ruling against ICs joining riptides would be 100% against what's written in the BRB, and screw up similar units in half a dozen codexes.

I would stop spreading your rumor.

Players get responses daily from these help lines that end up being totally incorrect. There's no reason for a nameless CSR to have inside information on upcoming rules changes, nor have permission to discuss them if they did.

I don't think you understand what the phrase "Frequently Asked Questions" actually mean. If you look at the current Tau FAQ, you'll notice an explanation on the crisis suits and their weapons. Is that not a clarification to the rules and not a rewrite?

The BRB rule book, surprise surprise, has occasionally crappy explanations to the rules. Familiarize yourself with the BRB pg 39 and the Tau Empire: Codex pg 33. Without that Tau codex section, it would literally make IC unable to join Riptides at all. However, the Riptide unit itself, SOMETIMES consists of multiple units, which allows the IC to join it. Does that mean you have to have at least one drone with the riptide in that unit in order to take IC, or not?

The RAW do not satisfy the question, hence the FAQ to solve it one way or the other.

RAW absolutely satisfies the question. The rules for ICs joining units never a single model have been the same for 5th and 6Th edition. It's literally the same situation as a carnifex or necron spyder that was purchased individually yet had the option of being more. They haven't FAQd it in 2 editions with the same text, they have no reason to even address it.

If you take a riptide alone on Tuesday, and take a riptide with drones on Wednesday, it literally meets the requirement of being a unit that doesn't always consist of a single model.

Anyways we're derailing the thread. Make a YMDC thread if you still don't believe me, you'll find the support of ICs joining riptides is nearly unanimous.

On topic: I actually really like the o'vesa star, and think it would be fun to play with. However my personal aversion to spam would have me design the list with the o'vesa star and no additional riptides and a more solid scoring core. I'd even run the o'vesa star with eldar allies for a couple serpents, wraithknight, and farseer.

I'm looking at the entry for the Carnifex. It specifically states it is a 1-3 model unit in its codex pg 94. That is BEYOND clear.

Conversely, the Tau Codex pg 100 has the riptide listed as 1 model with the drones as wargear. The only thing that makes the drones squad members for all purposes is the clarification on pg 33. Hence the question: Do you need to have at least one drone to make the Riptide join-able? Unless, of course, i missed the memo that says wargear count as models.

It wouldn't be the first time GW did something that makes you go "what?" Point being BC vs SMS on a Hammerhead. There's literally no reason to ever take BC on a Hammerhead. Ever. Yet they are still an option.

But you're right it is derailing the thread. I'll leave it at that.

Ask yourself this question- is the riptide ALWAYS 1 model? If you can take drones, the answer is an undeniable no. Therefore, ICs can obviously join a riptide as per RAW.

Either you are trolling or you don't understand logic/English...

Anyway, in a farsight/tau army, I can see this unit as being a solid Death Star to throw at your opponent while the rest of your army does stuff. You can ways start the 2+ save buffmander and o'vessa with othe units to tank first turn shots then form up and try to neuter any threats to the rest of your army.

Only problem is its 470 points plus buffmander!

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
I'm looking at the entry for the Carnifex. It specifically states it is a 1-3 model unit in its codex pg 94. That is BEYOND clear.

Hi, sorry. The 'Unit composition' is not the operative part. For better or for worse, it is not specified in the rules.

If it was (or Errate'd), golden!

Back to the OP... Jaws is still amazingly cost effective as your still only on 50% odds to Deny. Also, assuming a riptide (Farsight tide or O'vesa) can't get Hit & Run - Zombies/Gaunts will still easily tie up the unit for a decent amount of time.

That is why you have amulet (4d6 pick highes) and vectored retro thrusters in the unit.

Besides, I have not seen anyone take jaws in a long time-SW are not as prevalent as they once were.

 mortetvie wrote:
That is why you have amulet (4d6 pick highes) and vectored retro thrusters in the unit.

Besides, I have not seen anyone take jaws in a long time-SW are not as prevalent as they once were.

But that won't stop me from taking the Talisman in my competitive lists just in case.