Voter ID Issue Query

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**Manchu**

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
/quote]Answer the actual question please.
Ask an honest question.
Are you saying I'm dishonest?

Easy E wrote:
Fraz, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Just answer the question please.

**Frazzled**

Easy E wrote:
Fraz, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Just answer the question please.

I'll answer that question with this question.
If your wife was personal friends of the former chief of police of the neighboring city, knows where the local safe houses for battered women are, was a crack shot and always armed with a pistol with one of those evil high capacity magazines, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask, has she stopped beating me yet?

**Grey Templar**

OK, but you haven't shown that being poor = limited access to IDs. There isn't a income requirement for IDs. Its not comperable to your example.

I do think a free ID would be a good idea for the government to provide. Especially since many places want not 1 form of ID but 2 or more.

**Easy E**

Why do mostly Southern states* and Republicans care so much about Voter ID laws?

*= Note I'm sure there are other states too, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Fraz, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Just answer the question please.

I'll answer that question with this question.
If your wife was personal friends of the former chief of police of the neighboring city, knows where the local safe houses for battered women are, was a crack shot and always armed with a pistol with one of those evil high capacity magazines, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask, has she stopped beating me yet?

Just answer the question please Fraz. have you stopped beating your wife?

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
I do think a free ID would be a good idea for the government to provide. Especially since many places want not 1 form of ID but 2 or more.

So you'd support a government push to provide a government ID to everyone who wanted one, but not require them for voting? I mean, we're just being altruistic, right?

**Frazzled**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I'd consider backing a voter ID law if....

You could find me five creditable studies* that show that NATION WIDE voter fraud is serious** (or even a thing) enough to merit nationwide voter ID. As well as five instances where voter fraud swayed an election***.

*Studies cannot be paid for by either major political party or politically associated group. Also it has to be clear who DID fund the study so bias can be checked.

**Serious as in "All the fraud swayed an election."

***Examples must be from congressional races, presidential races, or gubernatorial races. (Ie I don’t care if some mayor somewhere won because a bunch of zombies voted for him.)

Well assume chances of fraud are minimal. If efforts to reduce that are also minimally invasive, then there's no problem.
I'll note, if Canada has other options for documentation then the hydro bill those could count too, I just don't know them.

**Manchu**

whembly wrote:
Manchu... Georgia passed voter ID laws years ago...

They turned out okay.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/despite-voter-id-law-minority-turnout-up-in-georgi/nR2bx/

Any proof that there was in-person voter fraud before and that there is less of it now? The article answers the question: No. Furthermore, the article suggests that the case against voter suppression is not actually settled. In particular, the article notes the issue of free IDs does not account for over 260,000 GA voters.

**Peregrine**

Frazzled wrote:
Answer the actual question please.

It does answer the question. Since there has yet to be any credible evidence of a problem that will be fixed by stricter ID requirements the inevitable conclusion is that those requirements are being implemented with malicious intent. So even if the argument seems like a good one superficially there's a very good reason to oppose it until it is established that it is anything more than a solution in need of a problem.

**Grey Templar**

Sure, free ID would be a good idea in general. Not everybody will have a drivers license, military ID, etc...

Certainly it should be provided if we do require ID to vote. But it wouldn't be a big deal if they didn't have a free one. After all if voter fraud isn't a problem then adding a layer of security shouldn't do anything either.

**Frazzled**

Grey Templar wrote:
OK, but you haven't shown that being poor = limited access to IDs. There isn't a income requirement for IDs. Its not comperable to your example.

I do think a free ID would be a good idea for the government to provide. Especially since many places want not 1 form of ID but 2 or more.

Well, in the OP, I proffered any pic ID, but expanded that to include non pic IDs. I'm also ok with the state paying for ID.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just answer the question please Fraz. have you stopped beating your wife?

The questio proceeds from a false assumption at the beginning, therefore the answer to your question exists before the question is even made.

**Grey Templar**

Heck, make it part of the birth certificate. You get the paper certificate and a ID card the never expires.

**whembly**

Manchu wrote:
whembly wrote:
Manchu... Georgia passed voter ID laws years ago...

They turned out okay.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/despite-voter-id-law-minority-turnout-up-in-georgi/nR2bx/
Any proof that there was in-person voter fraud before and that there is less of it now? The article answers the question: No. Furthermore, the article suggests that the case against voter suppression is not actually settled. In particular, the article notes the issue of free IDs does not account for over 260,000 GA voters.

The Georgia voter ID law has been upheld by every state and federal court in Georgia that reviewed it, up to and including the Georgia Supreme Court. These courts have held that the Georgia law does not unduly burden any racial or economic group, that it does not violate the Georgia or the U.S. Constitutions, or any federal voting rights law, including the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

So... you want that overturned?

Funny how I'm in your shoes with respect to the ACA.

**Manchu**

Grey Templar wrote:
There isn't a income requirement for IDs. Its not comperable to your example.

Okay, let me change my hypothetical. Instead of showing a tax return proving your household nets >$200k/year, the law requires you to drive to the polling center in a Lamborghini. There, no direct income requirement.

**Frazzled**

Peregrine wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Answer the actual question please.

It does answer the question. Since there has yet to be any credible evidence of a problem that will be fixed by stricter ID requirements the inevitable conclusion is that those requirements are being implemented with malicious intent. So even if the argument seems like a good one superficially there's a very good reason to oppose it until it is established that it is anything more than a solution in need of a problem.

There is evidence of voter fraud, whether or not you accept that evfidence is different (more people voting then registered that sort fo thing). As noted however, if we assume such fraud is minor, then an equally noninvasive check is appropriate.

**Grey Templar**

Manchu wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
There isn't a income requirement for IDs. Its not comperable to your example.
Okay, let me change my hypothetical. Instead of showing a tax return proving your household nets >$200k/year, the law requires you to drive to the polling center in a Lamborghini. There, no direct income requirement.

Still a horrible comparison.

There is not direct or indirect income requirement for an ID in this country. Your example would be an income requment.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
After all if voter fraud isn't a problem then adding a layer of security shouldn't do anything either.

This is why I'm pushing for the government to issue every citizen with a magic rock, which deters lion attacks. Maybe.

Sure, lion attacks are practically unheard of in this country, and sure, it would involve quite a bit of cost to produce and renew the rocks, and yes, we'd obviously have to entrench a new bureaucracy to manage the rocks, and finally, yeah, maybe the rocks don't even actually stop lion attacks... but frankly, none of this should matter in the face of preventing these nearly nonexistent lion attacks.

**Dreadclaw69**

Isn't it funny, when it comes to discussion about guns (another constitutional right) and gun control we have advocates saying that we should be more like other developed countries. Yet when it comes voter ID laws it is a complete 180

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/voter-id-proponents-point-to-laws-in-other-countries/2012/07/12/gJQAVlGCfW_blog.html

Poll workers in Ireland can ask voters for proof of identity, but voters have a choice of “five different forms of photo ID, in addition to bank books, credit cards, checkbooks and marriage certificates.”

“In Switzerland, every registered voter is sent a registration card prior to an election, and if the voter brings her registration card to the polling place, no additional identification is needed.”

“Canada permits any voter who lacks one of the allowed forms of photo identification to present two of forty-five other forms of identification or documentation that have the voter’s name and address on at least one. Acceptable documents include leases, student transcripts, and utility bills.”

Sweden’s policy is a bit more vague, requiring that a “voter who is not known to the voting clerks [produce] an identity document or in another way verify her or his identity.”

“India allows the use of fifteen different types of identification, ranging from property documents to arms licenses to income tax identity cards. Included, too, are forms of identification most likely to be possessed by the poor.... For instance, voters can present ration cards issued to the poor to allow them to buy food staples and kerosene oil at subsidized prices.” . . .
“Countries such as Spain, Greece, France, Malta, Belgium, and Italy provide national identity documents to their citizens to use for many purposes, including travel, banking, and healthcare access as well as voting.”

As well as that we managed to introduce crude voter ID in Iraq and Afghanistan with purple ink. Was that being racist too?

**Grey Templar**

Adding ID requirements wouldn't add any real cost to voting. You just have the pollster verify the name matches and youre done.

**Manchu**

whembly wrote:
Funny how I'm in your shoes with respect to the ACA.

First off, using underlining and italics does not make your points seem more compelling to me. Second, I'm not saying that GA's Voter ID law is unconsitutional. I am saying it is a solution that lacks a problem and while solving nothing carries the risk of causing further problems.

**Ma55ter_fett**

I want a government program to help me find my voter ID when I lose it after putting it down somewhere.

Also I assume there is some sort of electronic verification of the card at the voting place. Because if you didn’t then you could just make and distribute fake ID cards. What happens if the power goes out? The machine breaks? The machine gets hacked/tampered with?

Will I have to stand in a DMV style line to get my card? If my card goes through the wash machine do I have to stand in the DMV style line? Our founding fathers never envisioned automatic weapons or DMV lines preventing us from getting our voter ID. I demand shorter guns and a ban on assault DMV lines!!!!

Who takes the picture for my ID (back to the DMV style line)? When are they open? Will I have to take off work to get my voter ID? Will I have to drive across town? If I don’t have a car will I have to walk?

We could answer and deal with all those questions and more or….

We could just let people vote.

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:
whembly wrote:
Funny how I'm in your shoes with respect to the ACA.
First off, [underlining and italics does not make your points seem more compelling to me. Second, I'm not saying that GA's Voter ID law is unconsitutional. I am saying it is a solution that lacks a problem and while solving nothing carries the risk of causing further problems.

Of course they do. You youngins with your good eyesight won't notice but your seniors sure do!

**Manchu**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
We could just let people vote.

But our elections are clearly invalid. I mean, look at all those Republicans getting elected in Texas! It's in-person fraud, I tell you.

**Frazzled**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I want a government program to help me find my voter ID when I lose it after putting it down somewhere.

Also I assume there is some sort of electronic verification of the card at the voting place. Because if you didn’t then you could just make and distribute fake ID cards. What happens if the power goes out? The machine breaks? The machine gets hacked/tampered with?

Will I have to stand in a DMV style line to get my card? If my card goes through the wash machine do I have to stand in the DMV style line? Our founding fathers never envisioned automatic weapons or DMV lines preventing us from getting our voter ID. I demand shorter guns and a ban on assault DMV lines!!!!

Who takes the picture for my ID (back to the DMV style line)? When are they open? Will I have to take off work to get my voter ID? Will I have to drive across town? If I don’t have a car will I have to walk?

We could answer and deal with all those questions and more or….

We could just let people vote.

You could use another form of ID. Bring your power or water bill.
Bingo bango congratulations you voted! Now pick up that can citizen!

**whembly**

Grey Templar wrote:
Adding ID requirements wouldn't add any real cost to voting. You just have the pollster verify the name matches and youre done.

Yup... easy peasy.

The purpose of requiring voter photo-identification is to suppress voter impersonation at the polls...
to stifle double voting by persons who are registered in more than one state or locality...
to stop any voting facilitated by fictitious voter registration...
to stop voting by legal/illegal aliens who are not citizens and have no right to vote in our elections.

Nothing to do with stopping "the wrong kind of eligible voters" from voting...

These are all worthwhile goals because bogus ballots cast by foreigners, impersonators and frauds are ballots stolen from honest Americans.

**Ouze**

If in-person voter ID fraud of the type that would be stopped by picture ID became an actual significant phenomenon by some yet to be argued metric (half of 1% of the vote, lets say, but we can argue the specifics of what "significant" means later) , and the state would bear the cost of the ID cards for those who could not afford them, I would not have a problem with that because, although it would have a tax dollar cost and a somewhat expanded bureaucracy, it would be solving a problem.

However, I would not and do not support solutions in search of a problem. The cart is before the horse in this debate.

dammit, Ninja'd by Manchu. Stupid work, always distracting me!

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:
Ma55ter_fett wrote:
We could just let people vote.

But our elections are clearly invalid. I mean, look at all those Republicans getting elected in Texas! It's in-person fraud, I tell you.

I agree all Carpetbagger Republicans coming to our fair land...h wait, sorry wrong century...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
If in-person voter ID fraud of the type that would be stopped by picture ID became an actual significant phenomenon by some yet to be argued metric (half of 1% of the vote, lets say, but we can argue the specifics of what "significant" means later) , and the state would bear the cost of the ID cards for those who could not afford them, I would not have a problem with that because, although it would have a tax dollar cost and a somewhat expanded bureaucracy, it would be solving a problem.

However, I would not and do not support solutions in search of a problem. The cart is before the horse in this debate.

dammit, Ninja'd by Manchu. Stupid work, always distracting me!

That would work for me.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Isn't it funny, when it comes to discussion about guns (another constitutional right) and gun control we have advocates saying that we should be more like other developed countries. Yet when it comes voter ID laws it is a complete 180

Isn't it funny that when it comes to discussion about how large goverment should be we have advocates saying we should have small goverment and less spending.

Yet when it comes to voter ID laws its a complete 180 and they want more bureaucracy and an expensive new national program.

**whembly**

Manchu wrote:
whembly wrote:
Funny how I'm in your shoes with respect to the ACA.
First off, using underlining and italics does not make your points seem more compelling to me. Second, I'm not saying that GA's Voter ID law is unconsitutional. I am saying it is a solution that lacks a problem and while solving nothing carries the risk of causing further problems.

Need moar bewbs instead of underlines / italics? I'd be happy to obliged!

A bunch of folks in GA obviously felt there was a problem. *shrugs*

**Forar**

whembly wrote:
A bunch of folks in GA obviously felt there was a problem. *shrugs*

"Feeling there is a problem" and there actually being one aren't always the same thing.

Also, let's not forget that it's not impossible for the problem to not actually be the one supposedly being solved. Not to besmirch the good people of GA, merely pointing out that it should be a consideration.

**MrMoustaffa**

Ok I know I'm going to seem like an idiot for asking this, but what's wrong with asking for an ID to vote?

If all I need is a driver's license or something I don't see how that's a huge deal. Most people will have one already and those that don't can get a regular state ID for fairly cheap.

I go through more hassle trying to buy alcohol to be honest.