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Challenges are just another way to nerf the insanely overpowered close combat system (<-- Sarcasm).. Many GW employees were getting killed by big characters so they had to find a way to screw them over.

- Matt Ward helped writ the 6th ed rulebook.
- Matt Ward wrote the Necron codex.
- The rulebook has challenges.
- The Necron codex has Mindshackle Scarabs...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
- Matt Ward helped writ the 6th ed rulebook.
- Matt Ward wrote the Necron codex.
- The rulebook has challenges.
- The Necron codex has Mindshackle Scarabs...

Is there a Matt Ward bingo I could join in? These things really would help for it.

Everytime my nobz get challenged I just roll d6 and on 2+ my nobz fail to hear the challenge. All my nobz and bosses have poor hearing because they spend their times near noisy engines.

Oh no doubt when it happens to a random champion, especially the Cultist one, its an amazing boon.

Never seen it happen except on an HQ though rofl.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh no doubt when it happens to a random champion, especially the Cultist one, its an amazing boon.

Never seen it happen except on an HQ though rofl.

Ah well then no doubt it must be rough for you (or good depending on what side you are playing)

 laginess wrote:
Yeah, anything with unwieldy is completely useless in challenges...

I guess you'd either need to have dueling characters or character-free tarpits...

Try going against Necrons with Lords with mind shackles, he issues an challenge and you either duck out and your squad gets to punch themselves to death or punch yourself to death.

 laginess wrote:
Yeah, anything with unwieldy is completely useless in challenges...

I guess you'd either need to have dueling characters or character-free tarpits...

I actually like the unwieldy rules in regards to challenges. It makes sense to me that some weapons are awkward to use and thus greatly slow down reaction of the guy wielding them. Those weapons tend to be the AP 2 and +str ones, makes sense to me. While the faster, less powerful weapons allow for speed and agility.

I think some armies (tyranids in particular, necros too from the 2nd ed fluff, no idea about 5th ed ones) should be able to ignore challenges. Maybe give those that win a challenge a bonus for the rest of the game. +1 attack per successful challenge perhaps.

Unwieldy doesn't "work" in challenges because they aren't the 'big cinematic' fight that GW wants them to be.
It's either "My character will totally wipe your character, so I challenge." or "I try to stay away from it."

That's my main problem with the rules.
Challenges aren't used to make the game cinematic, they are used to counter characters and make them useless.

And they do a damn good job at it.
Its the reason you never see SM Sergeants with a Power Fist anymore - unlike an Ork Nob he is single wounded and has 0 chance to survive a challenge against anything other than another random character without an ap3 weapon, and hoping he passes his armor saves.
Hell, lot of ork players stopped taking nobs with pk's in their boyz squads because of it. I just started that too because i noticed the PK rarely ever does anything unless its a vehicle, and 3 units w/o the PK nob is a 4th unit of boyz. More scoring units to throw around ftw. To compensate i added another PK to my bikernobz than i normally have.

I just dont like challenges at all, but its one of those rules i am not going to house rule out. Thats one of the rules that drastically change the pace of the game if you decide to not use it suddenly.

Challenge rules as they stand lead to a very schizophrenic situation. Either you pimp your
characters to the maximum or you run them naked. With the first option you end up with expensive
models that will overkill almost any opposition ( except Necron Lords with MSS ) and in the second
to sacrificial lambs. Not very "cinematic" or "heroic".

The 40k universe itself is schizophrenic. Basically every bit of fluff countermands another races fluff. Even the fluff they include in the codex does this as well as being ignored in the rules presented opposite it at times. Considering all battles, save apoc games, are supposed to be a small part of a larger war I've always thought no named characters should be included at all. Challenges are a way to counteract the cc rules and give you a way to fight between characters where you would have no way to do it otherwise. Even if they allowed you to select exactly where your blows will fall there would be no way to be sure your opponent was going to do the same when the rest of his unit went. I can actually see them giving races such as Orks and 'Nids special rules around challenges. For the most part every other group minus Demons and some of the CSM should be following the Honor of war. We'll just have to see.
Anyone that is stating that challenges further neuters cc then I have to say that I think cc is just fine. The major cc armies, namely SM, all have access to drop pods. Considering this gives you first turn deployment in your opponents zone excuse me for not having sympathy that you have to take a round of shooting before you can charge in and tie up/wipe out a unit of long range shooters. Proper deployment after a dp landing will prevent many of the scarier weapons from targeting you.

It's just another dumb rule 6th introduced to force cinematics , and like the rest it ended ridiculous. Before it was something when your ICs met on the field alone and it became a duel, now it's circle fights everywhere. 40k's relatively down to earth rules (given the scale) were enough to make it cinematic without pushing it down your throat.

Lilrys wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

please cite to us where the BRB makes the statement about the rules being modular and one can ignore certain sections. I think if you make a good case, I can start playing with coin flips, because the dice are an inconvenience to me.

Page 8: The Spirit of the game

YES! Excellent response to the troll. GW make it really clear ALL THE TIME that the rules are a framework which allows you to enjoy using the models in your games. At the end of the day you can do whatever you want as long as you and your opponent agree it up front!

Lilrys, you are my hero.

Played a game yesterday with Black Templars vs Blood Angels, the challenges were disappointing:

Chapter Master with Teeth of Terra vs Sanguinary Priest
Emperor's Champion vs Assault Sergeant
Emperor's Champion vs Biomancy Mephiston

The last one was the only 'fair' challenge and it was terribly boring.
EC couldn't even hurt the FnP/IWND-T9-Mephiston and he couldn't hurt the 2+ shield

I personally like challenges. Your brave hero (aspiring hero) calls out a dangerous looking warlord to buy time and attempt to gain glory for (himself/emperor/truth and justice... whatever).

For a turn or two a week character can save a squad or a fearsome blender goes mano-a-mano and butchers something. For tyranids and the like, an alpha instinctively seeks to assert itself over rival alphas... or the hivemind is on a hunt to cutoff leaders from the enemy pack.

We play 2.5k games, and they don't take that much longer (if they even do... we all think they're shorter) than 5th edition. While things like challenges slow it down, the brutality of 6th edition speeds up the process even more so (YMMV).

For all of my armies (see sig), challenges are pretty easy to build around a (either to avoid or to win), and that adds another level to the game. No offense, but to me, people whining about challenges just don't want to adapt (learn, figure out) a new subset of the game's tactics and are just frustrated by their own shortcomings... usually in list building but also in gameplay.

That's not to say I win them all... but its fun to try to, and they're even fun to lose (especially when some monster crushes a sarg... that's just kinda epic and cool... and makes it that much more meaningful, when the lowly sarg with a PS kills an Autarch, Captain, or the like)

 Lobukia wrote:
I personally like challenges. Your brave hero (aspiring hero) calls out a dangerous looking warlord to buy time and attempt to gain glory for (himself/emperor/truth and justice... whatever).

For a turn or two a week character can save a squad or a fearsome blender goes mano-a-mano and butchers something. For tyranids and the like, an alpha instinctively seeks to assert itself over rival alphas... or the hivemind is on a hunt to cutoff leaders from the enemy pack.

We play 2.5k games, and they don't take that much longer (if they even do... we all think they're shorter) than 5th edition. While things like challenges slow it down, the brutality of 6th edition speeds up the process even more so (YMMV).

For all of my armies (see sig), challenges are pretty easy to build around a (either to avoid or to win), and that adds another level to the game. No offense, but to me, people whining about challenges just don't want to adapt (learn, figure out) a new subset of the game's tactics and are just frustrated by their own shortcomings... usually in list building but also in gameplay.

That's not to say I win them all... but its fun to try to, and they're even fun to lose (especially when some monster crushes a sarg... that's just kinda epic and cool... and makes it that much more meaningful, when the lowly sarg with a PS kills an Autarch, Captain, or the like)

Believe me it's not the case, can speak only for myself ofc, it's just that rules like challenges remind me of scripted events in Call of Duty or sth and tactics around it are just rule sheningans, imo. It's not laziness that's for sure rather a little disgust, if I like the rule like let's say dying from the front (which is spoiled by Look Out Sir btw) I am all over it instantly thinking about formations etc.

Otherwise good post, see how with that perspective one might like the rule. Too late for me I guess though.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's also stupid because it forces everyone to have an honorable duel instead of just shooting the idiot in the back as soon as he says "let's fight". It makes some sense for, say, marines where everyone is obsessed with personal honor and dishonoring a duel would be the kind of shameful action that demands ritual suicide, but not everyone in 40k is a space marine. Plenty of armies would be happy to let the idiot with a chainsword start the duel, turn his back on the rest of the squad, and then mob him from behind for an easy kill.

Not really. Only Tau and maybe tyranids. Nearly every other army would do that
Dark Eldar: I cant let them think a boot scoof scares me
Eldar: I can best a Monkey
Chaos: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO
you catch my drift?

Agreed - I really like it all seems pretty cinematic / narrative to me - Even Some Tau would do it...................Most Necron Warlords and of course Orks def would as well, Sororitas would.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 laginess wrote:
Yeah, anything with unwieldy is completely useless in challenges...

I guess you'd either need to have dueling characters or character-free tarpits...

Try going against Necrons with Lords with mind shackles, he issues an challenge and you either duck out and your squad gets to punch themselves to death or punch yourself to death.

For an army that is initiative 2 across the board, this is about the only way to win a challenge.

Chaos: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO

So only Khorne would be forced into duels, gotcha.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chaos: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO

So only Khorne would be forced into duels, gotcha.

Slaaesh Daemons and Worshipers are often hugely arrogant so would be hard pressed to refuse, Tzeentch ones think they already know the outcome so why refuse and Nurgle would likely just except it (as thats part tof their thing - acceptance) with a sigh and various other bodily emissions

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chaos: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO

So only Khorne would be forced into duels, gotcha.

Slaaesh Daemons and Worshipers are often hugely arrogant so would be hard pressed to refuse, Tzeentch ones think they already know the outcome so why refuse and Nurgle would likely just except it (as thats part tof their thing - acceptance) with a sigh and various other bodily emissions

Slannesh daemons could just as likly be more concerned with making the ground a nice shade of red and not realy care where it comes from

I don't realy like challenges. I don't think I have ever seen one be a tense battle, with my daemons it tends to be the guy is dead, or my daemon got dreaded since he didn't die :(

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chaos: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO

So only Khorne would be forced into duels, gotcha.

Slaaesh Daemons and Worshipers are often hugely arrogant so would be hard pressed to refuse, Tzeentch ones think they already know the outcome so why refuse and Nurgle would likely just except it (as thats part tof their thing - acceptance) with a sigh and various other bodily emissions

Except it's not a hive mind, not all Slaanesh worshippers are all about duels, some are very charismatic and prefer to lead from the back while daemons sometimes simply laugh at the thought of some mortal having the gall to challenge them and have their innards paint the ground because he was distracted by challenging a herald, Same with Tzeentch preferring to use others to fight and Nurgle might have a buddy that enjoys fighting more so he'll stay back and let him fight instead.

You don't live a long time in the warp by being idiotically stupid in combat, some might think they could take the Emporer himself, but some seeing The Swarmlord is gonna take a step back and say "Whoa, I enjoy living a bit too much to try this out."

A deamons time in the mortal realm is a blink of time in their immortal existance - even if they are destroyed they just go home..............

Wait till Dark Eldar gets a 6th edition codex, there you'll probably see a rule called "unfair advantage" where if the challenged enemy is the last one there, the rest of the squad can fight into challenge for a turn which all hits are auto.

Gravmyr wrote:
I can actually see them giving races such as Orks and 'Nids special rules around challenges. For the most part every other group minus Demons and some of the CSM should be following the Honor of war. We'll just have to see.

Because the first thing when thinking about Eldar (especially Dark Eldar) is "Honour "